DBUG> X3 presentation @ DBUG

[Neil Blanchard]

Hello folks,

It was great to see X3 in person last evening. The first thing I noticed was -- it looked just like v12! But the new functions make it quite a bit different -- and better!

I'll go in reverse order from how we saw them: the Auto HLR is a *HUGE* thing. The resulting power of this new tool is obvious: we will be able to create a smart model of the building and from it, generate all the major outlines of the construction drawings. And this is exactly what we need to be doing.

The shadow viewer is also great, if not quite as revolutionary as the Auto HLR. An additional use for this that occurs to me is if we could get shadowed elevations and/or shadowed perspectives that end up in the DataCAD AEC file, so they could be used for presentation drawings. And we will have to hear from the folks in Australia on what kinds of output they will need from the shadow viewer.

The view/scale/layer dependency tools for symbols and text (and dimensions) are excellent, and like so many things in DataCAD, I think we will find more and more uses for this. Flexibility that lets the user get the results they may need, is the opposite sort of tool than we have seen and come to expect from BIM.

DataCAD does not reduce the role of the architect, and automatically generate the building from a bunch of dialog boxes. DataCAD gives us the flexible tools we need to design and draw buildings.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/




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[Evan Shu]

[Google Groups is acting up and all posts are not getting through. For
now, please use the dataca...@world.std.com address for posting.
Thanks, Evan Shu]


From: "Michael Smith" <mi...@signaturearchitects.com>
Subject: Re: DBUG> X3 presentation @ DBUG
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:49:43 -0500

Neil:

I think you forgot a few:

1. Ability to draw while the Layer Manager is still open/active.
2. Symbol browser has "Recent Folders" and "Favorite Folders" options.
3. Enhanced text scale (entity by entity option) where the text
automatically changes to stay at the same plot scale size, even when
the
detail is enlarged or reduced in MSP.
4. Individual symbol layers can now be told to display in 2D or 3D
only, and
layers can be told to display within a range of scales (so hatching
doesn't
show up at 1/4", but would at 1-1/2" scale, for instance).
5. Covered polylines can now be lifted and rotated into any 3D plane!
So
it's like slabs on steroids.
6. 3D faces can be associatively hatched!
7. Use Ctrl-Right Click to instantly define a construction plane, and
make
it orthagonal with the screen.
8. Ability to make edits to entities in 3D and DCAD is smart enough
to
maintain the edits in the plane of the entity (so edits to a sloped
roof
would make the edits along the slope of the roof, and not try to push/
pull
the roof out of its plane).

Mike Smith

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[SDES...@aol.com]

WOW - I like it a lot !

Was a target release date mentioned ?

 

David K. Sargert , LEED AP
PO Box 1304
Ranchos de Taos, NM 87557
505-573-9518
da...@sargertdesign.com (please use the AOL Email websites are updated)
www.sargertdesign.com (Being Updated)
http://www.epitomedesign.com/dev/sargert/ Temp Location of Past Work Website
www.sargertdesign.blogspot.com (Blogs are current)
www.saffrongroup.blogspot.com


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The information contained in this transmission is legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. It is the property of SARGERT DESIGN ASSOCIATES, INC. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copy of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachments.

 

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[Evan Shu]

From: <SDES...@aol.com>
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 3:21 PM

Subject: Re: DBUG> X3 presentation @ DBUG

To: dataca...@googlegroups.com

WOW - I like it a lot !
Was a target release date mentioned ?

David K. Sargert , LEED AP
PO Box 1304
Ranchos de Taos, NM 87557
505-573-9518
da...@sargertdesign.com (please use the AOL Email websites are updated)
www.sargertdesign.com (Being Updated)
http://www.epitomedesign.com/dev/sargert/ Temp Location of Past Work Website
www.sargertdesign.blogspot.com (Blogs are current)
www.saffrongroup.blogspot.com

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[Michael Smith]

Are you kidding?! ;-)   We all know the answer, so I think nobody asked. Beta testing is hopefully by year end.

 

Michael Smith
Signature Architects, Inc.
mi...@SignatureArchitects.com
P: 978-562-1661, Ext. 221
F: 978-562-1662
http://www.SignatureArchitects.com

[SDES...@aol.com]

I'm kind of out of the loop these days and did not know how far X3 was in the development stream.

Thanks for the update. 

 

David K. Sargert , LEED AP
PO Box 1304
Ranchos de Taos, NM 87557
505-573-9518
da...@sargertdesign.com (please use the AOL Email websites are updated)
www.sargertdesign.com (Being Updated)
http://www.epitomedesign.com/dev/sargert/ Temp Location of Past Work Website
www.sargertdesign.blogspot.com (Blogs are current)
www.saffrongroup.blogspot.com


Things happen !!!
Please follow up critical Emails with a phone call if you have not had a reply to your message.

The information contained in this transmission is legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. It is the property of SARGERT DESIGN ASSOCIATES, INC. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copy of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachments.

 

[Nick Pyner]

At 12:26 PM 20/11/2009 -0500, Neil Blanchard wrote:

>The shadow viewer is also great, if not quite as revolutionary as the Auto
HLR. An additional use for this that occurs to me is if we could get
shadowed elevations and/or shadowed perspectives that end up in the DataCAD
AEC file, so they could be used for presentation drawings. And we will
have to hear from the folks in Australia on what kinds of output they will
need from the shadow viewer.

_________________________________

I have responded to this in the DataCad forum. I submit that all that is
required is for dhShadow to be properly integrated into DataCad and made
100% kosher.

I hope other users in Oz feel the same way.

My main point is that we want a shadow facility for design and
documentation. To the best of my knowledge, only DataCad can do this.
Getting shadows into pretty pictures has already been done.

I don't know if it's that important to be integrated rather than an
external macro, but I understand it will be faster if it is. This may not
be such an issue with modern computers.

Other than that, some sort of saveable management inteface that allocates
layers and colours to times would be nice, plus, dare I suggest, a
schedule of goups casting and sufaces receiving. What this means is that a
whole suite of shadow diagrams are produced at at the touch of one button.
I'm quite happy to go off and watch Leigh Sales on Lateline while DataCad
grinds away at this. This can't be hard to do and Henderson was intending
to provide this, before he decided to close up shop and go and live on
Mars.



Nick Pyner

Dee Why Beach NSW

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~npyner/yadpage.htm

[Mark Wilhelm]

Well,  I asked, but Mark just kinda groaned, or sighed.  It's obviously something more than vaporware, but it could be a while.

Best,
Mark Wilhelm

[Evan Shu]

From: Mark Wilhelm <ma...@grazadovelleco.com>
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: DBUG> X3 presentation @ DBUG

Well,� I asked, but Mark just kinda groaned, or sighed.� It's
obviously something more than vaporware, but it could be a while.

Best,
Mark Wilhelm


Michael Smith wrote:

Are you kidding?! ;-)�� We all know the answer, so I think nobody
asked. Beta testing is hopefully by year end.

WOW - I like it a lot !
Was a target release date mentioned ?

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To Join or view DBUG Bulletin Bd: http://www.tinyurl.com/DBUGforum

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[Evan Shu]

Please address direct replies to Neil Blanchard, e-mail below.

From: Neil Blanchard <neil.bl...@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: DBUG> X3 presentation @ DBUG

Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:17:36 -0500


Hi Michael,

>> I think you forgot a few:
>>

>> 1. Ability to draw while the Layer Manager is still open/active. =

[Excellent for dual monitors!]

>> 2. Symbol browser has "Recent Folders" and "Favorite Folders" options. =

[Very convenient and helpful.]

>> 3. Enhanced text scale (entity by entity option) where the text =

automatically changes to stay at the same plot scale size, even when

the =
detail is enlarged or reduced in MSP. [I was including this in the 3rd
=
item on my list.]

>> 4. Individual symbol layers can now be told to display in 2D or 3D =

only, and layers can be told to display within a range of scales (so =
hatching doesn't show up at 1/4", but would at 1-1/2" scale, for =
instance). [This is also what I was including in item #3 -- thanks
Mike =
for expanding/explaining it better.]

>> 5. Covered polylines can now be lifted and rotated into any 3D plane! =

So it's like slabs on steroids. [This negates the need to save as a =
symbol, or make a self-reference, as in v12.]

>> 6. 3D faces can be associatively hatched! [Like TouchUp on steroids!]=


>> 7. Use Ctrl-Right Click to instantly define a construction plane, and =
make it orthogonal with the screen. [This was really cool!]

>> 8. Ability to make edits to entities in 3D and DCAD is smart enough to =

maintain the edits in the plane of the entity (so edits to a sloped

roof =
would make the edits along the slope of the roof, and not try to =
push/pull the roof out of its plane).

>> It was great to see X3 in person last evening. The first thing I
noticed was -- it looked just like v12! But the new functions make it

=

quite a bit different -- and better!

>> I'll go in reverse order from how we saw them: the Auto HLR is a =

*HUGE* thing. The resulting power of this new tool is obvious: we

will =

be able to create a smart model of the building and from it, generate

=
all the major outlines of the construction drawings. And this is =

exactly what we need to be doing.

>>

>> The shadow viewer is also great, if not quite as revolutionary as the =

Auto HLR. An additional use for this that occurs to me is if we could

=

get shadowed elevations and/or shadowed perspectives that end up in

the =

DataCAD AEC file, so they could be used for presentation drawings.

And =

we will have to hear from the folks in Australia on what kinds of

output =

they will need from the shadow viewer.

>>

>> The view/scale/layer dependency tools for symbols and text (and =

dimensions) are excellent, and like so many things in DataCAD, I think

=
we will find more and more uses for this. Flexibility that lets the =

user get the results they may need, is the opposite sort of tool than

we =

have seen and come to expect from BIM.

>>

>> DataCAD does not reduce the role of the architect, and automatically =

generate the building from a bunch of dialog boxes. DataCAD gives us

=

[Dick Eades]

>>*HUGE* thing. The resulting power of this new tool is obvious: we will =
be able to create a smart model of the building and from it, generate = all
the major outlines of the construction drawings. And this is = exactly what
we need to be doing.<<

Well, maybe it's what a small percentage of us need to be doing. It may be
a large percentage of the readers of this list but this list is a small
percentage of the total DataCAD user base. I contend that most of the work
done in DataCAD is 2d and the 3d advancements go to please only a small
portion of the user base. I'd like to see the results of a survey of the
entire DataCAD user base to see actually how much 3d work is really going
on. I know the sizzle sells and the 3d is what you see in a presentation
but it's not the bulk of the work.

Dick

[JAID]

Huge may be an expert's perception (Neil's) but there is an argument that
broader approval is not the important thing with these sorts of advances.
Positioning for relevance beyond current user interest or stated desire to
their longer term competitive and aesthetic needs is vital to the survival
of any business.

I do think you are correct, Dick. 3D capability wouldn't get a lot of use,
probably doesn't create a lot of interest and at the same time the
geewhizzery does get to some. At the same time there would be hardly a
documentor out there who would not like to be able to develop good 3D models
as part of their process if it was easy enough and cheap enough in time to
do so. A CAD developer has to start somewhere if it is going to have the
tool which is easy enough and cheap enough when or before at last these are
readily available elsewhere.

They are available now regulated only by the learning curve or cost, it is
only a matter of time. Fortunately for DataCAD this has come very much more
slowly than you would expect given the fairly substantial but basic 3D
capability already available more than a decade and a half ago. DataCAD was
a proficient exponent of that. You could say that its running has been
'measured' since then.

Regards

Ian

[Anthony Blasio]

Just to weigh in a bit on the 3D side.

Since DataCAD introduced smart walls, doors & windows I have moved to
them for all new drawing work. These features have allowed me to draw my
2D plan and get the 3D benefits without any increase in time. After all
once you have your basic library of walls, doors and windows you can
draw with them just as fast as the old 2D walls and such. I admit you
can fudge things as easily but for new construction I don't have many of
those instances (you do with drawing up existing conditions for remodels
though).

We have done a lot of loft build-outs since v12 was released. I draw up
our concept plans in 2D using the smart entities. We then meet with our
client in our conference room and I pull up DataCAD and the concept plan
on the projector screen. We then use the Object Viewer to show the
client the space in 3D. We discuss the layout and I make some of the
changes right there with the client and bring the model back up. It is
fun to watch the client eyes light up when you make revisions right
there in front of them and they see the results right away in 3D.

These concept plans are then used for the 2D working drawings. So we get
the benefit of the 3D presentation model with our 2D plan. The model is
also then used to make screen grabs from the Object Viewer which are
then given as extra clarification to the construction supervisor.

So I would vote for more 3D for free features in DataCAD. I think many
view the smart entities as primarily 3D and are neglecting the 2D
benefits.

Tony
Tony Blasio

[Rita G]

I sure want the quicker 3d for my clients. Don't know about generating
the floor plans, and sections from it, but I've always done my plans with Z
hgts and added roofs to do quick HLR and to use that as a base for my
elevations.. I guess that it makes more sense to generate the model from my
floor plans the way I do now. And, really, that is what Revit does.

I have an increasingly insistant demand for more modeling and more
realistic modeling from my customers. This is becoming one of the first
things they ask when they talk to me about using me to do their project.
Right now, I have two clients that would like to see how the shadows of
their new structures would fall on the neighboring properties.
so--GO, DATACAD!!!!!!
Rita
Blueline D& D

[Mark Wilhelm]

Dick,

I'd like to see such a survey, too.  A high percentage of my work is 2D construction drafting, and I rarely have occasion to work in 3D for presentations.  But I'm inclined to agree with the 3D enthusiasts that working in 3D will become much more prevalent as the tools become more user-friendly, intuitive to use.  And the little peeks we had at X3 suggest that Dcad is working hard on that.  More and more lately I've been using smart walls to build plans for contract documents, and extracting elevations of tricky intersections and conditions from them.  Working with the "smart" components does make editing plans easier.  It turns out to be fairly easy to flatten the 3D elements to be truly 2D: simply export to Dcad 11, and no more "smart" stuff. 

The biggest frustration for me with the current "Smart" implementation is the inability for wall heights to slope.  By far the majority of my work involves complex intersections of pitched roofs, with knee and cheek walls, dormers, and open floor areas with windows extending across floor lines.  Until varying heights become part of the kit, my use of 3D will be restricted.  But when that becomes available, and reasonably easy to use, I'll leap into 3D with glee.

That said, what Mark M presented the other night was tantalizing, offering plenty that I will be able to use without committing fully to 3D.  And if upgrading to X3 brings more 3D utility, that will be just fine with me.  Mark displayed a 3D model of a section of fence, that could be manipulated in 3D, but transferred to essentially 2D hidden line removed views that can be annotated, dimensioned, and re-scaled flexibly, while remaining linked to the 3D model.  I recently modeled a bench in 3D, then produced a HLR isometric, which I then had to dimension non-associatively and inserted as an Xref in a drawing.  That feature would have saved me some time and hassle.

So, I agree completely with Mike and Evan that this is Huge.  And a step in the right direction.

Best to all,
Mark Wilhelm