Rumi and the often quoted 'I died as a mineral"

[Nureddin]

Bismillahi Rahmani Rahim

As salam alaikum

Surely this topic was discussed before but I am unable to find it.
Can someone provide some classical interpretation provided for the
verses "I died as a mineral ...". Obviously they do not refer neither
to reincarnation nor to evolution as some pople like to present it,
but I was wondering if there was some specific classic interpretation
given to those lines.

Salams

Nureddin

[Behnaz Hashemipour]

'alaykum as-salam

There is also a passage in Book IV entitled "The diverse modes and stages of the nature of Man from the beginning," which says:

First he came into the clime (world) of inorganic things, and from the state of inorganic things he passed into the vegetable state.

(Many) years he lived in the vegetable state and did not remember the inorganic state because of the opposition (between them);

And when he passed from the vegetable into the animal state, the vegetable state was not remembered by him at all,


3640. Save only for the inclination which he has towards that (state), especially in the season of spring and sweet herbs—

Like the inclination of babes towards their mothers: it (the babe) does not know the secret of its desire for being suckled;

(Or) like the excessive inclination of every novice towards the noble spiritual Elder, whose fortune is young (and flourishing).

The particular intelligence of this (disciple) is derived from that Universal Intelligence: the motion of this shadow is derived from that Rose-bough.

His (the disciple's) shadow disappears at last in him (the Master); then he knows the secret of his inclination and search and seeking.
(From Reynold A. Nicholson's translation of the Mathnawi)

Is it possible to understand what exactly Mawlana Rumi is saying here? Perhaps we can find similar ideas in the Islamic sources. However, this is my personal view (as a layperson who has been lucky enough to be born a Persian and whose main source of spiritual inspiration comes from Mawlana's words) that for interpreting some passages in the Mathnawi and the Divan-e Kabir something more than sheer erudition and scholarship is required.

Behnaz

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[Ashki Majid]

Hu!
Most authors in the West (I don't speak Persian) say this has to do
with the Neo-platonic hierarchy used in pagan and Christian mysticism.
Annemarie Schimmel put forth that it was a metaphor for life's
continuation. My understanding is that as we submit and sacrifice we
ascend a ladder towards Haqq (reality) dying each time to a level of
nafs and revealing more of the Light of our Ruh to ourselves. This is
simplistic but I am not a scholar nor a Gnostic <grin> just a student
of Sufism-Tassawuf.
Majid Buell

On Mar 31, 1:00 am, Behnaz Hashemipour <behnaz.hash...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Nureddin <nureddinosma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Bismillahi Rahmani Rahim
>
> > As salam alaikum
>
> > Surely this topic was discussed before but I am unable to find it.
> > Can someone provide some classical interpretation provided for the
> > verses "I died as a mineral ...".  Obviously they do not refer neither
> > to reincarnation nor to evolution as some pople like to present it,
> > but I was wondering if there was some specific classic interpretation
> > given to those lines.
>
> > Salams
>
> > Nureddin
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > dar-al-masnav...@googlegroups.com<dar-al-masnavi%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Ibrahim]

Dear Nureddin,
Wa `alaykuma 's-salâm,

Have a translation with brief commentary, done some years ago:
http://dar-al-masnavi.org/n-III-3901.html

Here is Nicholson's translation (1930):
"I died to the inorganic state and became endowed with growth and
(then) I died to (vegetable) growth and attained to the animal. I died
from animality and became Adam (man): why, then, should I fear? When
have I become less by dying? At the next remove I shall die to man,
that I may soar and lift up my head amongst the angels; And I must
escape even from (the state of) the angel: 'everything is perishing
except His Face.' Once more I shall be sacrificed and die to the
angel: I shall become that which enters not into the imagination. Then
I shall become non-existence: non-existence saith to me, (in tones
loud) as an organ, 'Verily, unto Him shall we return.'"

There is classical commentary on this, summarized by Nicholson (see
below). In the Mevlevi tradition, the classical authority is the
Commentary by Anqaravi (died 1631 http://dar-al-masnavi.org/about_anqaravi.html),
studied in all Mevlevi centers throughout the Ottoman Empire.
Nicholson followed Anqaravi's commentary more than any other. I have
it in Persian translation, 15 volumes. but for this passage, Anqaravi
translates and paraphrases, but adds little except references to
“passing away” ([fanaa] and subsistence [baqaa] in God. And there is a
reference to Qur’an 3:169: “Do not think of those who are slain in
God’s way as dead. No, they live in the presence of their Lord,
finding their sustenance.” And in the second passage (Masnavi 3:
3637), he explains that the human spirit became separated from the
Eternal Source and passed through the stages. Masnavi 1:3 is quoted,
where the reed flute (= the soul) complains: “Ever since I was severed
from the reed marsh...” The rest is paraphrasing about how the human
spirit forgets the earlier stages. Anqaravi, like Rumi, accepts this
view of the journey of the human spirit based on traditional
cosmology--so he has no need to explain or justify it.

Here it can be said that Islamic culture absorbed much of Greek
science, since many classical Greek texts were translated early on
into Arabic. On book that influenced Islamic cosmology was known as
the “Theology of Aristotle.” However, this actually was a translation
of some chapters of the “Enneads” by Plotinus (died 270), the first
Neoplatonist.

Prof. William Chittick, who does not use the term
“Neoplatonic” (probably because he is a “Traditionalist”), has an
outstanding explanation (Sufi Path of Love, 1983, pp. 72-82): "Rumi
subscribed to the traditional Islamic cosmology, since it was an
adequate representation of his own physical observations and mystical
experience, and it provided an excellent symbolical vehicle for
expressing his metaphysical knowledge.... Some of Rumi's teachings
cannot be put into context without reference to this hierarchical
structure of reality. If certain authors had meditated a little more
thoroughly upon Rumi's picture of the cosmos, which is referred to
throughout his works, they never would have claimed that his ideas
prefigure the theory of biological evolution. The spirit can only
ascend to heaven because it has come down from heaven in the first
place.... It must be emphasized that this scheme does not describe
some sort of physical descent and reascent of the spirit. In the
higher stages this is self-evident, for in itself the spirit
transcends the material world. But even when Rumi says that the spirit
‘enters into’ the world of the elements. This is only a manner of
speaking. The spirit is always transcendent, dwelling in its original
home.… If I have entered into great detail explaining this dimension
of Rumi's teachings, it is because of the misunderstandings alluded to
above, which seem to have gained widespread acceptance. But in fact,
this discussion of the spirit's descent and reascent does not play a
very important role in Rumi's teachings. For it is not his aim to
explain a cosmological scheme to his readers."

Here is Nicholson's commentary on the first section of verses (1940):

3901-3906 See I 3165-3168, 3872-3876, with the notes ad loc., and cf.
infra, vv. 4178-4189.
-------
[I:] 3165--3167 The corn-seed sown in the earth becomes bread, which,
when eaten, assimilated, and converted into sperm, produces the man
endowed with spirit (vegetable, animal, and intellectual). Cf. supra,
v. 890 sqq., 1474 seq., 1531 sqq. The soul, as a mode of Divine Being,
undergoes a similar evolution: in order that its inherent
potentialities may be developed and exhibited, it descends into the
world of matter, where from the lowest phases of soul-life it
gradually rises to the highest and, having traversed the whole circle
of existence and thus attained to the utmost perfection of which it is
capable, gives itself up to God and realises its essential unity with
Him. Cf. III 458 sqq., 3901 sqq., 4179 sqq.; iv 3637 sqq.; v 789 sqq.;
vi 126 sqq.; Diwan, SP, XII 6 sqq.; GR, 487 sqq.
[I:] 3872 Qur. III 163-164: "and deem not those to be dead who are
slain in the Way of Allah. Nay, they are living with their Lord,
receiving (spiritual) provision, rejoicing in the bounty which God
hath bestowed upon them." The poet, however, is not thinking of
Moslems who have fallen in battle, but of mystics who have died to
self for God's sake. These are the real martyrs. For the symbolical
use of "throat" (balq) in this passage, cf. III 13-43, where the same
ideas are expounded more fully.
[I:] 3873--3874 Instead of afzun gasht the oldest MSS. have afzunid or
afzuyid. The commentators understand these verses literally: one may
judge, what the martyr's future state will be from the fact that a
slaughtered animal, when eaten and assimilated by man, rises to the
stage of humanity. But comparison with other passages (e.g. iii 390
sqq., 4147 sqq., 420 3 sqq-) indicates that behind the literal sense
there is an allusion to the ascent of the soul through successive
stages of growth (vegetive, animal, rational). It will be convenient
to postpone discussion of this doctrine till we come to the famous
passage in Book IV 3637 sqq. Here I need only quote some less familiar
lines of Sana'i (Hadiqah, IV 149 b)
ta nayayad birun zi-jan hayawan,
rah na-yabad ba-martaba-i insan
pas chu insan zi-nafs-i natiqah rast,
ruh-i qudsi ba-ja-yi u bi-nishast.
chun birun shud zi-jan-i guyandah,
shud ba-jan-i firishtagan zindah.
"Until the animal comes forth (is freed) from its soul, It cannot find
the way to the rank of Man. Then, when Man escapes from the rational
soul, the transcendental soul takes its place. When he has passed
beyond the rational soul, he is made living by the soul of the
angels."
From this point of view, v. 3873 may be translated as follows: "When
the animal throat is justly cut (i.e. when the sensual capacities and
faculties of the soul have been mortified), there grows (from it) the
human throat (i.e. the rational capacities and faculties), and its
excellence is increased thereby."
[III:] 4180 I.e. in the course of Man's spiritual evolution his
earthly nature becomes endued with the qualities of the rational soul
(nafs-i natiqah). For the metaphor in the second hemistich, cf. I
3165-3168 and note ad loc.
4181 ~~~~~ referring to the vegetive soul (nafs-i nabati).
~~~~~ , i.e. "advance to the highest capacity of the human spirit
(ruh-i insani): become a Perfect Man". Cf. the notes on 1 1978, II
188; and for the figurative language, II 1427 and note ad loc.
4182-4185 The mystic ascending to God is invested with the Divine
attributes whence the world of Nature ultimately derives its being.


As for the second selection of verses (IV:3637), quoted by Behnaz,
Here is Nicholson's commentary on these verses (1940):

Rumi's doctrine of the Divine origin of the soul, its descent to the
material world, its life on earth, the development of its latent
powers, and its ultimate return to its true home, is set forth so
clearly and illustrated so copiously that there should have been no
need to remove misconceptions as to his meaning. Take, for example, a
quotation from an Indian interpreter of this passage (C. R. Jain, The
Lifting of the Veil, p. 164 seq.). The italics are mine.
"After obtaining the human form many ...go astray and become enemies
of Religion and Faith, and again don the animal form, or attain to
even worse conditions. The Mawlana of Rum writes:
'0 thou who hast torn the skin of many a Joseph,
Thou shalt wake up as a wolf from this heavy slumber.'
. . . The souls that pass out of the whirlpool of re-birth do not
fall into it again."
As it happens, the question whether Rumi believes in transmigration
of souls (tanasukh) is answered shortly and conclusively by the poet
himself (V 2594)
andar-in ummat na-bud maskh-i badan,
lik maskh-i dil buvad ay dhu' 'I-fitan.
[[In this community there has never been metamorphosis of the body,
but there is metamorphosis of the spirit, O man endowed with
perception.]]
Here he lines up not only with orthodox Moslems but with philosophers
like Avicenna, and all reputable Sufis (see note on III 4209).
To students of Moslem thought it is evident that in this and similar
passages he is using ideas which have their source in the Neoplatonic
theory of emanation and the psychology of Aristotle and Plotinus. As
Whinfield says (GR, p. 33, note 2), "the doctrine of the three
ascending grades of the soul-vegetive, animal, and human-was first
enunciated by Aristotle and is reproduced in the A'yunu'l-Masa'il (of
Farabi) and other works". But essentially Rumi stands much nearer to
Plotinus, and by way of introduction to the following verses I cannot
do better than quote some extracts from Dean Inge's resume (Christian
Mysticism, p. 91 sqq.).
"The soul is with him the meeting-point of the intelligible and the
phenomenal. It is diffused everywhere. Animals and vegetables
participate in it; and the earth has a soul which sees and hears. The
soul is immaterial and immortal, for it belongs to the world of real
existence, and nothing that is can cease to be. The body is in the
soul, rather than the soul in the body. The soul creates the body by
imposing form on matter, which in itself is No-thing, pure
indetermination, and next door to absolute non-existence .. . . The
nature of the soul is triple; it is presented under three forms, which
are at the same time the three stages of perfection which it can
reach. There is first and lowest the animal and sensual soul, which is
closely bound up with the body; then there is the logical, reasoning
soul, the distinctively human part; and, lastly, there is the
superhuman stage or part, in which a man 'thinks himself according to
the higher intelligence, with which he has become identified, knowing
himself no longer as a man, but as one who has become altogether
changed and has transferred himself into the higher region' . . . .
The whole universe is one vast organism, and if one member suffer, all
the members suffer with it. This is why 'a faint movement of sympathy'
stirs within us at the sight of any living creature. So Origen says,
'As our body, while consisting of many members, is yet held together
by one soul, so the universe is to be thought of as an immense living
being, which is held together by one soul-the power and the Logos of
God.' All existence is drawn upwards towards God by a kind of
centripetal attraction, which is unconscious in the lower, half
conscious in the higher organisms."
Though Rumi often gives these ideas a different application, their
affinity to his own, as well as their relevance to the present
context, is unmistakable. The world was created in order that the
Perfect Man-the soul of the world-might be evolved. What Rumi depicts
in the following couplets is his spiritual evolution. Cf. a similar
passage (GR [[= Golshan-e Raz, Garden of Mystery, by Shabistari, died
1339]], 317 sqq.), beginning:
bi-dan awwal kih td chun gasht mawjud,
kih ta insan-i kamil gasht mawlud.
dar atwar-i jamadi bud payda;
pas az ruh-i idafi gasht dana.
pas an-gah junbishi kard u zi-qudrat,
pas az vay shud zi-Haq sahib-iradat.
ba-tifli kard baz ihsas-i 'alam,
dar-u bi-'l-fi'l shud waswas-i 'alam.
chu juz'iyyat shud bar vay murattab,
ba-kulliyyat rah burd az murakkab.
[[translated by Robert Abdul Hayy Darr, "Garden of Mystery", 2007, pp.
71-72: "First know in what manner the human's coming into being leads
to the aim of manifesting the Completed Person. He appeared in the
realms of inanimate matter. With the expansion of Spirit he became
aware. He then stirred through God's Power and came to have his will
through the Real. Worldly sensations opened in his childhood, which is
just what led to Adam's temptation. As earthly particulars became
arranged in his mind, he came to understand the whole by combining
them. Anger and lust thus manifested in him and with them
possessiveness greed, and pride. All sorts of blameworthy qualities
struggled in him making him worse than a wild animal, devil or demon.
this is the lowest point in Being's descent because it is the point
opposite to Unity. Actions give rise to endless multiplicity and so he
became inverted to his origin."]]

On Mar 30, 3:01 pm, Nureddin <nureddinosma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bismillahi Rahmani Rahim
>
> As salam alaikum
>
> Surely this topic was discussed before but I am unable to find it.
> Can someone provide some classical interpretation provided for the
> verses "I died as a mineral ...".  Obviously they do not refer neither

> to reincarnation nor to evolution as some people like to present it,

> but I was wondering if there was some specific classic interpretation
> given to those lines.
>
> Salams
>
> Nureddin

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[R]

Dear Sirs.

Asslamo alaikum wa rahmatullah.

To regress to the basics.  Mevlana Rumi's work derived essentially from the Quran and the Traditions of the Prophet so it is much more likely that in this famous poem he had in mind the Quranic verses 'Allah has raised you from the Earth like the raising of vegetation' (Nuh [Noah]: 18 and 'There has certainly come upon mankind a period of time when it was not a thing worth mentioning (Al Dahr [The Time]: 2).  

Moreover there is also a verse from another poem in the Divan:

گاهی به تک طینت صلصال فرو شد غوّاص معانی
گاهی ز تک کهگِل فخّار برآمد زان پس به جهان شد

This probably alludes to the Quranic verse:

He created man from dry ringing clay like pieces of pottery.  

 

Al Hijr [The Stoneland]: 15.

No other scripture speaks of ringing pieces of broken water storage pots of terra cotta in relation to the creation of humans nor did anyone know that they have passed through a phase of existence akin to ringing pieces of pottery. This is proof of the Quran being the complete the word of God. The scientists also agree to it now and in this way Science testifies to the greatness of The Holy Quran.
                  The grammarians take Jinn to mean bacteria and Imam Raghib has derived the same meanings that anything that is invisible to the naked eye comes under the category of Jinn. The Holy Prophet also defined the Jinn in the same way in saying 'Do not wipe the private parts with bones because it is the food of the Jinn.' [Var.] When one studies the research from this perspective it is proven that bacteria are created from fire. 

 

Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad - Khalifatul Masih IV.  'Tarjumatul Quran - Surahs al-Qamr [The Moon]: 48 - al-Rahman [The Gracious]: 34', 29 September 1998.  

صَلْصَلٍۢ with the meaning of dry ringing clay.  See Al-Munjid by Abdul Hafeez Balyavi and Al-Mufradat fi Gharib al-Quran by Abul Qasim al-Hussayn bin Mufaddal bin Muhammad Raghib al-Isfahani.
    This is the subject which could never itself have occurred to Muhammad the Holy Messenger of Allah ﷺ by any stretch of his imagination.  No mention is found in any other Divine book of the creation of humankind from ringing pieces of pottery.  But the scientists who have resolved this enigma in the present age.
   Secondly before the birth of humanity the Jinn were created from blasts of fiery hot wind falling form the skies.  This aspect is also one that could never have been imagined by Muhammad the Holy Messenger of Allah ﷺ until God who is Knower of the Hidden had informed him of it.  The Jinn created from نَّارِ السَّمُومِ  [‘blasts of fire’] are the Bacteria which also resolves the enigma of where the stagnant blackish mud came from.  Moist clay does not stagnate of itself without the presence of Bacteria.
                 In the current age there are various explanations offered for the word Jinn but here one explanation for the Jinn is that Virus and Bacteria are also Jinn that came into existence as a result of the fiery radioactive rays falling from the heavens since the beginning of the cosmos.  All scientists of the current age are unanimous on this that Bacteria and Viruses are born as a direct consequence and by deriving energy from fire.
              Then it makes a Prophecy about mankind that carries glorious mystical meanings and unveils the subtle secrets of creation.  Earlier books do speak of the concept of man being created from moist earth but the idea of mankind being created from dry ringing clay like pieces of pottery is one which is not mentioned by any book before 'The Holy Quran'.  It cannot be explained in detailed here but the scientists know that there was a stage of creation where it was essential for the creative substances to be dry like ringing pieces of poetry.  Then the seas took in this dry element and wrapped it into its tides to embark upon a journey of the chemical progression of mankind in which it was necessary for the creation of mankind that this essential chemical not to return to its earlier form.  

 

Ahmad.  Introduction to the Surahs of The Noble Quran With Brief Explanatory Notes to Some Verses, (2002).

Also see pages 342 - 345 in Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth and the following chapters from the section on 'Life in the Perspective of Quranic Revelations': The Jinn, The Essential Role of Clay &amp; Photosynthesis in Evolution. 

[David Perrault]

Jinn are much more than Germs though germs may be a subcategory. They are personified and visible and smokeless fire etc. at times

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[Mohamadreza Lahfatan]

منسوخ چه باشد ؟ چه تناسخ به حقیقت ؟ آن دلبر زیبا

شمشیر شد و در کف کرار برآمد ، قتال زمان شد

نی نی که همو بود که می گفت انالحق ، در صوت الهی

منصور نبود آنکه بر آن دار برآمد ، نادان به گمان شد

رومی سخن کفر نگفته است و نگوید ، منکر نشویدش

کافر بود آن کس که به انکار برآمد ، از دوزخیان شد