Interview with Sefik Can

[iljas]

Salaam all at Dar al Masnavi,

I've recently come back (to Thailand where I live) from Turkey (Istanbul and Konya).

In Konya I bought a book, Rumi and His Sufi Path of Love, edited by M. Fatih Citlak and Huseyin Bey, from the Mevlana Museum.

The book contains an interview with Sefik Can, who is described as "the last spiritual master of the Mevlevi sheikh tradition," "a Masnavi reciter and spiritual head (sar-tariq) of the Mevlevis."

The interview was conducted by Nuriye Akman and was originally published in Zaman Daily on 31 January 2005. In the introduction to the interview Nuriye Akman mentions that he received help from Ms Nur Artira, "his student and spiritual daughter, who was always by his side over the years, and to whom he entrusted his duties after his death, as outlined in his will." Later Nuriye Akman writes, "Perhaps learning that he has now given the moral entrustment he received from his master, Tahir'ul Mevlevi, to a female Mevlevi, might surprise some people. Yet Can wanted to see Artiran become a postnishin of a woman's sema group and hold talks about transmitting what is received from God to people with love coming to bear at every stage."  Here are some extracts from the interview:

NA: Sir is the quatrain "Come, come whoever you are" understood correctly by contemporary people?

SC: This quatrain does not belong to Rumi. The library official at the dargah, the Mevlevi dervish lodge, Necati Bey, had seen this quatrain written in old calligraphy on a sheet. Without searching for the origin, he spread the rumor everywhere that it was a Rumi quatrain, whereas this quatrain actually belongs to someone else in an anthology called Harabat, compiled by Ziya Pasha...nevertheless, because Rumi has many quatrains like this one...it might also be accepted as a Rumi quatrain. This is not very important in fact. The main problem regards those who are unaware of the spirit of the quatrain and take it on the surface....He does not say "Come, our dargah is available for everything. Do the things in our dargah that people outside do not accept, and we will welcome it." Yet people misinterpret it this way so that constantly reading this quatrain has had some negative effects on certain people...[they think] Rumi tolerates and accepts everything that God does not accept and that the Prophet does not find appropriate. Is such a thing possible? Rumi wrote: "I am the slave of the Qur'an for as long as I am living. I am dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen One." In one of his sayings, the Prophet Muhammad says that if people repent and ask God forgiveness, but yet commit the same sin again, they would become more sinful. Doesn't this describe Rumi? To understand the other quatrain, one has to think deeply. But because no one can bear that, it seems suitable to everyone's path.

NA: What kind of person was Rumi in your eyes?

SC: Actually, we are not up to understanding and describing him thoroughly. That's why everyone comprehends and talks about Rumi according to their particular understanding and intuition, and they say what they see in their own mirrors. Great saints are like oceans and we are like little drops of water beside them. Just as a little drop cannot understand the whole sea, it also cannot describe it correctly. We do not have any right to say anything to those who say they are on his path; however look at the words of that great person, who is an example of [sic?] humanity: "They value my turban, my robe and my head, all three of them, at one dirham (a small currency unit) or somewhat less. Haven't you ever heard my name in this world? I am nothing, nothing, nothing." Here is a clear sign of the modesty of Rumi, a great saint. Yet being nothing, realizing this nothingness, and continuing to walk on that path is not easy. Rumi himself said that he could not completely describe a human being if he tried until Judgement Day. Then how could I ever describe Rumi, an exemplary human being? 

Iljas

[Ibrahim Gamard]

Dear Iljas,

Salâm,

Hope you received many blessings from visiting the tomb of Mawlana Rumi.

I have the book you mentioned, by Citlak and Bingul. The opening sentence that you quoted has been mistranslated where it says that Shefik Jan (who was my Mevlevi shaykh--may Allah pour mercy and blessings upon his soul) was "the last spiritual master of the Mevlevi sheikh tradition"; or in another translation online: "The last of the Mevlevi sheikh tradition, Sefik Can Hodja passed away at the age of 96." Reading this translation, one might conclude that the Mevlevi tradition is dead and that there are no more Mevlevi shaykhs, except in name only. However, the original Turkish is more accurately translated, "Master teacher Shefik Jan, the last link in the tradition of Mesnevi recitation-teaching..." [Mesnevihanlik geleneginin son halkasi Sefik Can Hoca..." The words "Mevlevi sheikh" are not in the Turkish sentence (   http://www.zaman.com.tr/roportaj_mesnevihan-sefik-can-vasiyetini-acikladigi-son-roportaji-zaman-a-verdi_135409.html   ) The meaning here is that Shefik Jan was the last in a lineage of Mevlevi Mesnevi teachers who could read and understand the Mesnevi in Persian, extending from his Mesnevi teacher (Tahir-ül-Mevlevi, 1887-1951) to the Ottoman Mevlevi era. Certainly, it can be said that he was the last Mevlevi shaykh in his generation (1908-2005). And it is true that he was appointed to the position of Spiritual Director, or Head Shaykh by the leader of the Mevlevi tradition, the Chief Chelebi (Faruk Chelebi) about 2002. 

It is also true that he wanted his assistant and disciple, Nur Artiran, to be his successor [halife]. However, he did not give her a written authorization [ijazat] for this. He did not announce this in a formal Mevlevi gathering, but in private to a journalist (Nuriye Akman). And he did not have the authority (even as Head Shaykh) to authorize Mrs. Artiran to become a Mevlevi shaykh after his death. This is because in Mevlevi tradition only the Chief Chelebi (the direct patriilineal descendent of Mawlana Rumi through the lineage of Chief Chelebis) can authorize someone to be a Mevlevi shaykh. After Shefik Jan died, there was an effort on the part of a number of Mevlevis to persuade the Chief Chelebi to give written authorization to Mrs. Artiran to be a Mevlevi shaykha. However, he was unwilling and said, "This is not our tradition." (However, this is not a denial that there have been a few cases of women shaykhs in Mevlevi history, such as the daughter and granddaughters of Mawlana and a few later cases.) Subsequently, Mrs. Artiran has founded the International Shefik Jan International Mevlana Cultural Society, where she organizes seminars and teaches Mesnevi. She also has men and women semazens and musicians among her students and sometimes holds gatherings in which Turkish hymns [illahis] are sung and semazens whirl in Mevlevi garments. Since only an authorized Mevlevi shaykh can be the leader [postneshin] of the formal Sema ritual, she has not fulfilled that aspect of Shefik Jan's wishes. (According to the translation you posted: "to whom he entrusted his duties after his death, as outlined in his will"; more accurately rendered in the online translation: "as he explained in his last request" = in his last interview with the journalist--there was no written will about these matters). In 1999, when his eyesight became very poor, Mrs. Artiran became his assistant for teaching and compiling books (he translated much of Mawlana's works from Persian to Turkish). I have known Nur Artiran since 2003 and she is a very fine and completely dedicated Mevlevi.

As for what Shefik Jan said in the interview about the "Come, come" quatrain, falsely attributed to Mawlana Rumi for over four decades, I have included the same quote in "The Quatrains of Rumi", and also in an article on the website (in which I refer to the interview with Shefik Jan): 

http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html

Unfortunately, the Mevlevis in Turkey have not heeded the words of Shefik Jan and they continue to quote this quatrain as the essence of Mawlana Rumi's teachings (which it is not). An amusing side-story to this is that a Unitarian minister once emailed me about this quatrain and said that an English version of it had been set to music and added to the Unitarian hymnal as "by Rumi." He thought that the words "Wander, worshipper, lover of leaving, it doesn't matter, ours is not a caravan of despair" [literally, "Even if you are an unbeliever or a Zoroastrian or an idol-worshipper, return; this (dervish) court of ours is not a court of despair"] referred to some kind of pilgrim!

Iljas, if I had known that you were planning to go to Konya, I would have been glad to help you to meet some Mevlevi friends there: such as at the International Mevlana Foundation building just outside the Mevlana Museum rear exit gate, where visitors from around the world are welcomed and served tea, and where a Mevlevi shaykh (the son of a sufi shaykh, so he knows how best to be a shaykh) visits daily--proof that there are still authentic Mevlevi shaykhs in Turkey (al-hamdu li-llâh!).

Ibrahim

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[Iljas Baker]

Salaam Ibrahim,

Thanks for the clarification on the matter of the translation and some of the facts. English is not the strong point of the Turks. I felt with respect to a number of things in English published in Turkey that something was not quite right. It seems okay at first sight but when you read closely it is a different matter.I also bought Dr Erkan Turkman's book "Teachings of Shams-i-Tabrezi" and it suffers from this. As you probably know he is of Indian origin but has lived and taught in Turkey for many years and has a Turkish publisher.

I did think of contacting you for introductions in Konya but I wasn't sure that I would go there. I was waiting for someone to contact me in Istanbul and decided to go to Konya only when I had made up my mind that I had waited enough without success. I only stayed 2 nights in Konya. I did visit the Mevlana Museum three times -  as soon as I arrived,  the following day and the next morning before I left for the airport. But I was happy just to be there. I recited al-Fatiha at the tomb of Mevlana and prayed for the spirit of Mevlana to guide the Turkish people inshAllah. I did exit at the gate where the International Mevlana Foundation is located but was not enticed by the offer of free refreshments and passed by, once because it was empty and once because it was full! The museum has changed so much since I last went in 1975 and it is now a somewhat slick tourism site, which is understandable. It would be good if they would show a documentary on Mevlana's inspired compositions, perhaps including recitations of the Mesnevi in Persian and maybe with instrumental accompaniment.For me the inspired compositions are the true legacy of Mevlana.

Most of my time was  spent in Istanbul and it was wonderful to be in a city where for every prayer you could go to a different but beautiful mosque if you wanted to. My small hotel was sandwiched between Aya Sofia and the Sultan Ahmet Cami (Blue Mosque) and I could hear the call to prayer from my room. Sometimes I went to the Blue Mosque and sometimes I prayed in the Sulemanye mosque, which to me was the most impressive of all.

Iljas

[Kathryn Santana]

asalaamu aleikum, Ibrahim,

I found your reply most interesting, as much as I could understand.  `I am glad to benefit  from your studies & knowledge.

this is umm bilal.

always love & gratitude, qahira

[Vickie Starbuck]

Regarding translation, I have had similar problems with translations of Persian texts into English by native Persian speakers.  The first problem is grammar and word order, which for me, reflect no attempt to have translations reviewed by native English speakers even for such superficial and easily remedied issues.  The second problem I have encountered is the idea that some how texts and poetry cannot be translated and what appears to be too much dependence on dictionaries rather than the review of similar spiritual material all ready translated into English.  I will be the first to admit the difficulty of translating from a language, ancient and rich with metaphor.  Still, particularly for prose, there are English terms commonly in use for expressing the esoterica of these topics, some even original. Over use of dictionaries and thesaurus can leave translations with a very wooden feel.  Collaboration with a native English speaker, particularly one versed in the subject at hand, could result in vastly improved translations.  The readability of Nicholson, and his dedication to sharing the texts that he translated, still makes his Mathnawi my perennial favorite ...     

Regards, V. Starbuck

Sent from my iPad

[Firat Özdemir]

Selam,

To me it's very irritating that our government (and the Mevlevi community) tries to translate everything on Mevlana into English. In English there are more than enough introductory materials with good translations. And as far as I see, those who want "more of it" already try to have some degree of Turkish or Persian skills proportional to their enthusiasm.

Instead our government could spend their efforts (and public money) revitalizing the tradition of reading the Mesnevi from the Persian original, as it was done for more than six centuries, as it should be done. May God's mercy be upon Sefik Can, I find it very weird how he could appoint someone who cannot read and understand Mesnevi in Persian as his successor. 

Firat

[Ibrahim]

Salâm,

Here is the link to the English translation of the entire interview with Shefik Jan Efendi:

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-16130-interviewinterview-with-mevlevi-sheikh-sefik-can.html

The translation error was made in the online English edition of the Turkish newspaper, Zaman. Clearly, the translator was challenged by the first sentence: "Shefik Jan Hodja passed away at the age of 96, the last link in the tradition of Mesnevi teaching expertise" [Mesnevihanlik = "Masnavî-khwânî" in Persian]. In fact, few Turks may know what the highly honorable title of "Mesnevihan" (written in big letters on Shefik Jan's tombstone in Konya) means. So the translator rendered it (misleadlingly) as "the last of the Mevlevi sheikh tradition". Actually, many Turks may not know what the word "Mevlevi" means any more (now that the Order has been suppressed for 90 years). This was my impression during the afternoons I spent at Mevlana Rumi's tomb in December. To people who were curious about me, I said in Turkish, "I'm an American Muslim, I'm a Mevlevi." This answer satisfied people, but I had the distinct impression that some of them did not know what "Mevlevi" meant.

Firat - Am in agreement with what you have written. But could you be more specific about your statement that the Turkish "government (and the Mevlevi community) tries to translate everything on Mevlana into English"? (I take it that you men translations from Turkish rather than directly from Mevlana's Persian.) Can you name any books or articles that are examples of what you said? I have read, over the years, that the Turkish government (through the city of Konya) has been publishing translations of Masnavi in a number of languages. However, I can not find any evidence that any of these have been translated from Turkish (and not directly from Persian). Can you provide evidence otherwise? For example, is there a way to find out whether the translation of Masnavi into Japanese was made from Persian or Turkish? (Please see my new post on this topic). 

Vicky - When I met Professor Farhadi in 1985 and he proposed that we translate all of the quatrains attributed to Mawlana Rumi, it turned out to be  wonderful collaboration. His English was poor, so he needed me as a native speaker. And my Persian was poor (I had begun teaching myself Persian only a few years before), so I needed his knowledge and training as a scholar of sufi texts. I used dictionaries frequently and he did not use them at all (he is an authority on Persian dialects in (his native) Afghanistan and also in Tajikistan. There were cases when his confident avoidance of dictionaries would have resulted in translation deficiencies if I had not found more correct translations in my dictionaries. Anyway, our mutual deficiencies were balanced nicely by our strengths, and “The Quatrains of Rumi” was finally published in 2008. During those years, he taught me how to translate Mawlana’s poetry. Especially helpful was his knowledge of idioms, some of which he said would be understood by only a few Iranian scholars--but were still in common use in Afghanistan (because the Persian there has changed less slowly than in Iran over the centuries). For years, I would send photocopies to Dr. Farhadi of my latest efforts to improve accuracy of translation (each page always had the Persian text of the quatrain at the top) and he would mail them back covered with corrections in red ink. Al-hamdu li-llâh!

Iljas - I also have Mevlevi friends in Istanbul, whom I’ve been visiting since 2003. However there is no central place to meet that is comparable to the Mevlana Foundation building in Konya. There is a Mevlana Foundation site in Istanbul, but it seems to be used only on particular evenings for lectures and Mesnevi classes (separate ones for men and for women). 

One time I stayed in a hotel close to the huge Blue Mosque. I was dismayed to see that only fifteen to twenty worshippers attended the pre-dawn prayers when I went. Later, someone explained that few Turks live nearby in the surrounding heavily commercialized district. And I was relieved to hear that the Blue Mosque is filled every Friday for the congregational prayer.

Ibrahim

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[Iljas Baker]

Salaam,

The great contribution of the interview as far as I can see it and why I have the highest respect for Sefik Can are his words:

"Actually, we are not up to understanding and describing him [Rumi] thoroughly. That's why everyone comprehends and talks about Rumi according to their particular understanding and intuition, and they say what they see in their own mirrors. Great saints are like oceans and we are like little drops of water beside them. Just as a little drop cannot understand the whole sea, it also cannot describe it correctly... Rumi himself said that he could not completely describe a human being if he tried until Judgement Day. Then how could I ever describe Rumi, an exemplary human being?"

Writers who do not acknowledge this one way or another or who give the impression that they understand Rumi are leading people astray.

Ask yourself: have any of the authors of books on Rumi conveyed anything approaching the reality of Rumi and the reality of what happened between Shams and Rumi? Isn't what they say always on the surface, more or less? What I feel most deeply is that there is always something missing. Why did Shams not pass on what God gave him to another dervish or set alight another sincere seeker? Why did he seek out such a one as Rumi? What does it mean that Rumi was ready, others weren't? Why was it necessary to be ready? What does "ready" mean in this context?  I believe these things can only be "unveiled", no scholar can provide a satisfactory answer to these questions. The important thing is to sincerely acknowledge one's ignorance of Rumi and not to give up asking these kind of questions, whatever else you do.

Iljas

[Firat Özdemir]

Selam,

In the introduction of Ihya, when Ghazali categorizes the religious sciences, he mentions mukashafa which is a science that cannot be studied by scholars. He says it's only revealed to those who fulfill the purification of the heart (which is what Ihya is about). 

Although Masnavi mostly covers the same topics as Ihya, it obviously also contains some mukashafa, on which, as you pointed out, false Rumi experts like to speculate most. 

Firat