Ghazal F1725
239 views
Skip to first unread message
gré
May 14, 2012, 3:02:50 PM5/14/12
to Dar-al-Masnavi
Hi. I'm studying 1725 in prep for a discussion with a group I belong
to. I've found several translations online besides Nicholson's and
Arberry's. In the first couplet, there's a word that's translated as:
annihilation, nothingness, existence and non-existence, depending on
the translation or 'version'. Which is right? Is the original word
'fana'?
In the third couplet, there's a word that's been translated as:
tabernacle, intimate chamber, and gate. Is the Islamic concept of a
'tabernacle' similar to the Jewish concept. Meanings in the dictionary
vary from tent to niche to large house of worship.
In the fourth couplet, is the same word used twice for sea? Does it
also mean ocean? (Cf. F853)
In the fifth, is "your feet and your wings" in the original — or just
"power of flight"?
Sixth, does "rob" or "waylay" or "kidnap...steal" best convey
Mowlana's meaning?
In the seventh couplet, is the idea that worldly folk will corrupt or
distract a spiritual seeker from awareness of his spiritual
aspiration, taking him from the path to liberation/enlightenment/
realization?
And is the word "Source of Purity" or "source or happiness" or "best
qualities" the better translation?
Next, does Mowlana Rumi's use of the word translated as 'direction'
mean spatial or management? His ghazal that includes, "That
direction... whence this ripeness came upon the fruits..." (— F841 —)
comes to mind and I've assumed this is what's meant — like that
directionless, or omni-directional, direction.
The last couplet is mystifying. Does it mean, if you are a true
seeker, find the true path; if you aspire to be a spiritual
'companion', recognize that I am your Guide?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I do know, from the Arberry
footnote, the historical context of the ghazal's composition but
assume Mowlana was speaking to his disciples of the stature of a
Perfect Murshid's advice!
Here's K.E. Helminski's version:
Didn't I Say?
Didn't I say, " Don't go there; I am your friend.
In this mirage of existence, I am the fountain of life. "
Even if your anger takes you a hundred thousand years away,
in the end you will return, for I am your goal.
Didn't I say, " Don't be content with earthly forms;
I am the designer of the intimate chamber of your contentment. "
Didn't I say, " I am the sea, and you are a single fish;
don't strand yourself on dry land; I am your clear sea. "
Didn't I say, " Don't get caught in the trap like a helpless bird;
I am the power of flight - your feet and your wings. "
Didn't I say, " They will waylay you and make you cold;
I am the fire and your warm desire. "
Didn't I say, " They will implant their qualities in you
until you forget that the best qualities are here. "
Didn't I say, " You do not know from what direction
your affairs are put in order. "
I am the Creator beyond directions.
If light is in your heart, find your way home.
If you are of God, know your Benefactor.
to. I've found several translations online besides Nicholson's and
Arberry's. In the first couplet, there's a word that's translated as:
annihilation, nothingness, existence and non-existence, depending on
the translation or 'version'. Which is right? Is the original word
'fana'?
In the third couplet, there's a word that's been translated as:
tabernacle, intimate chamber, and gate. Is the Islamic concept of a
'tabernacle' similar to the Jewish concept. Meanings in the dictionary
vary from tent to niche to large house of worship.
In the fourth couplet, is the same word used twice for sea? Does it
also mean ocean? (Cf. F853)
In the fifth, is "your feet and your wings" in the original — or just
"power of flight"?
Sixth, does "rob" or "waylay" or "kidnap...steal" best convey
Mowlana's meaning?
In the seventh couplet, is the idea that worldly folk will corrupt or
distract a spiritual seeker from awareness of his spiritual
aspiration, taking him from the path to liberation/enlightenment/
realization?
And is the word "Source of Purity" or "source or happiness" or "best
qualities" the better translation?
Next, does Mowlana Rumi's use of the word translated as 'direction'
mean spatial or management? His ghazal that includes, "That
direction... whence this ripeness came upon the fruits..." (— F841 —)
comes to mind and I've assumed this is what's meant — like that
directionless, or omni-directional, direction.
The last couplet is mystifying. Does it mean, if you are a true
seeker, find the true path; if you aspire to be a spiritual
'companion', recognize that I am your Guide?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I do know, from the Arberry
footnote, the historical context of the ghazal's composition but
assume Mowlana was speaking to his disciples of the stature of a
Perfect Murshid's advice!
Here's K.E. Helminski's version:
Didn't I Say?
Didn't I say, " Don't go there; I am your friend.
In this mirage of existence, I am the fountain of life. "
Even if your anger takes you a hundred thousand years away,
in the end you will return, for I am your goal.
Didn't I say, " Don't be content with earthly forms;
I am the designer of the intimate chamber of your contentment. "
Didn't I say, " I am the sea, and you are a single fish;
don't strand yourself on dry land; I am your clear sea. "
Didn't I say, " Don't get caught in the trap like a helpless bird;
I am the power of flight - your feet and your wings. "
Didn't I say, " They will waylay you and make you cold;
I am the fire and your warm desire. "
Didn't I say, " They will implant their qualities in you
until you forget that the best qualities are here. "
Didn't I say, " You do not know from what direction
your affairs are put in order. "
I am the Creator beyond directions.
If light is in your heart, find your way home.
If you are of God, know your Benefactor.
Ibrahim
May 17, 2012, 12:59:12 AM5/17/12
to Dar-al-Masnavi
Dear Gré,
Glad you’re so interested in understanding Mawlana’s ghazals. To check
if there are any accurate translations available for a given poem, you
can check my concordance (for example, by typing “f-1725” or even
“1725”):
http://dar-al-masnavi.org/erg-foruz-concord.html
That gives the result:
170/F-1725/Arb, No. 215/Lewis RPP, p. 354b; Lewis RSS, p. 78
I don’t include Nicholson’s translations because they sound archaic
(published in 1898) and are based on poor manuscripts (he included 7
ghazals, some famous ones, that are not authentic). Arberry re-
translated all of the (authentic) ghazals translated by Nicholson.
However, Arberry’s second series of “Mystical Poems of
Rumi” (#201-400) has many typos, so it’s best to use the single volume
version published in 2009, in which Franklin Lewis has corrected the
errors. Sometimes, the only available translation is by Ergin (here,
“Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi, Divan-i Kebir, translated by Nevit Ergin
from Turkish, Meter 7” (in Volume 6, #170), but these are of varying
quality and have the problem of being double translations (Persian to
Turkish to English). Barks’ and Helminski’s renderings are not
translations from Persian but are re-Englishings of Arberry’s
translations (Helminski is a more faithful paraphraser; Barks does
some paraphrasing, but he prefers to be “creative”) and so do not shed
light on the original Persian meanings.
Here is the Persian text of this poem (with commentary!):
http://ganjoor.net/moulavi/shams/ghazalsh/sh1725/
``````````````````````````````
Did I not say to you, "Go not there, for I am your friend;
in this mirage of annihilation I am the fountain of life?""
Even though in anger you depart a hundred thousand years
from me, in the end you will come to me, for I am your goal.
Did I not say to you, "Be not content with worldly forms,
for I am the fashioner of the tabernacle of your contentment?"
Did I not say to you, "I am the sea and you are a single
fish; go not to dry land, for I am your crystal sea?"
Did I not say to you, "Go not like birds to the snare;
come, for I am the power of flight and your wings and feet?"
Did I not say to you, "They will waylay you and make you
cold, for I am the fire and warmth and heat of your desire?"
Did I not say to you, "They will implant in you ugly
qualities so that you will forget that I am the source of purity to
you?"
Did I not say to you, "Do not say from what direction the
servant's affairs come into order?" I am the Creator without
directions.
If you are the lamp of the heart, know where the road is to
the house; and if you are godlike of attribute, know that I am your
Master.
--Mawlana Rumi’s Ghazal no. 1725, translated by Arberry, “Mystical
Poems of Rumi,” 2009, pp. 222-23
`````````````````````````````````
Didn’t I tell you: “Don’t go over there, for I am the one
who knows you; in this mirage of annihilation, I am your source of
life;
“And if in anger for a million years you run from me, in
the end you will return to me for I am your destination.”
Didn’t I tell you: “Don’t be content with the outer scheme
and semblance of the world, for I am the architect of your pavilion
of contentment.”
Didn’t I tell you: “I am the sea and you are just a fish in
me; don’t go on the dry and sandy beach for I am your liquid purity.”
Didn’t I tell you: “Don’t step into a trap just like a
bird. Come to me for I am your wings and feathers and your power of
flight.”
Didn’t I tell you: “They will rob you and leave you cold,
for I am your hearth and fire.”
Didn’t I tell you: “They will fill you with ugly attributes
so that you will lose your way to me, your fountain of sanctity.”
Didn’t I tell you: “Don’t say how or from which quarter
your affairs will be arranged; I create you out of nowhere and of
nothing.
“If you are the lamp of hearts, know which way leads
homeward. And if you have the qualities of a lord, know that I am your
Overlord.”
--Ghazal 1725 translated by Franklin Lewis, “Rumi--Past and Present,
East and West: The life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalâl al-Din Rumi,”
2003, pp. 354-55; also in Lewis,”Rumi: Swallowing the Sun,” 2008, pp.
78-79
Now to your questions:
--Verse 1: Yes, “mirage of annihilation” is “sarâb-e fanâ”. The word
“fanâ” can also be translated as “passing away”, “becoming non-
existent”.
--Verse 3: ”I am the fashioner” [naqsh-band… man-am] “of the
tabernacle [sarâ-parda] of your contentment” --”tabernacle” means here
“a royal tent,“ and can also be translated as “pavillion”, as did
Lewis.
--Verse 4: Both words mean “sea” or “ocean”; one is Arabic [baHr] and
one is Persian [daryâ]
--Verse 5: Arberry is a literal translator: “the power of flight
[qudrat-e parwâz] and your wings and feet [o par-o pâ-t]”
--Verse 6: literally, “they will highway-rob” [rah-zan-and]
--Verse 7: This means that “associating with very worldly people will
cause you to have bad qualities and to forget God, the pure Source of
your existence”--literally, “your fountain of purity” [sar-chashma-ye
safâ-t]
--Verse 8: “direction” [jihat] is a spacial metaphor here, meaning
“from where,’ ”from what quarter?”--but the Beloved denies that there
are outside sources: “directions” [jihât]
--Verse 9: Let’s invite other members of the group to comment on or
explain this verse. Could Iranian members share anything relevant from
the commentary on the ganjoor.net web page? Or from Dr. Kadkanî’s
commentary, غزلیّات شمس تبریز p. 898?
Ibrahim
------------
Glad you’re so interested in understanding Mawlana’s ghazals. To check
if there are any accurate translations available for a given poem, you
can check my concordance (for example, by typing “f-1725” or even
“1725”):
http://dar-al-masnavi.org/erg-foruz-concord.html
That gives the result:
170/F-1725/Arb, No. 215/Lewis RPP, p. 354b; Lewis RSS, p. 78
I don’t include Nicholson’s translations because they sound archaic
(published in 1898) and are based on poor manuscripts (he included 7
ghazals, some famous ones, that are not authentic). Arberry re-
translated all of the (authentic) ghazals translated by Nicholson.
However, Arberry’s second series of “Mystical Poems of
Rumi” (#201-400) has many typos, so it’s best to use the single volume
version published in 2009, in which Franklin Lewis has corrected the
errors. Sometimes, the only available translation is by Ergin (here,
“Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi, Divan-i Kebir, translated by Nevit Ergin
from Turkish, Meter 7” (in Volume 6, #170), but these are of varying
quality and have the problem of being double translations (Persian to
Turkish to English). Barks’ and Helminski’s renderings are not
translations from Persian but are re-Englishings of Arberry’s
translations (Helminski is a more faithful paraphraser; Barks does
some paraphrasing, but he prefers to be “creative”) and so do not shed
light on the original Persian meanings.
Here is the Persian text of this poem (with commentary!):
http://ganjoor.net/moulavi/shams/ghazalsh/sh1725/
``````````````````````````````
Did I not say to you, "Go not there, for I am your friend;
in this mirage of annihilation I am the fountain of life?""
Even though in anger you depart a hundred thousand years
from me, in the end you will come to me, for I am your goal.
Did I not say to you, "Be not content with worldly forms,
for I am the fashioner of the tabernacle of your contentment?"
Did I not say to you, "I am the sea and you are a single
fish; go not to dry land, for I am your crystal sea?"
Did I not say to you, "Go not like birds to the snare;
come, for I am the power of flight and your wings and feet?"
Did I not say to you, "They will waylay you and make you
cold, for I am the fire and warmth and heat of your desire?"
Did I not say to you, "They will implant in you ugly
qualities so that you will forget that I am the source of purity to
you?"
Did I not say to you, "Do not say from what direction the
servant's affairs come into order?" I am the Creator without
directions.
If you are the lamp of the heart, know where the road is to
the house; and if you are godlike of attribute, know that I am your
Master.
--Mawlana Rumi’s Ghazal no. 1725, translated by Arberry, “Mystical
Poems of Rumi,” 2009, pp. 222-23
`````````````````````````````````
Didn’t I tell you: “Don’t go over there, for I am the one
who knows you; in this mirage of annihilation, I am your source of
life;
“And if in anger for a million years you run from me, in
the end you will return to me for I am your destination.”
Didn’t I tell you: “Don’t be content with the outer scheme
and semblance of the world, for I am the architect of your pavilion
of contentment.”
Didn’t I tell you: “I am the sea and you are just a fish in
me; don’t go on the dry and sandy beach for I am your liquid purity.”
Didn’t I tell you: “Don’t step into a trap just like a
bird. Come to me for I am your wings and feathers and your power of
flight.”
Didn’t I tell you: “They will rob you and leave you cold,
for I am your hearth and fire.”
Didn’t I tell you: “They will fill you with ugly attributes
so that you will lose your way to me, your fountain of sanctity.”
Didn’t I tell you: “Don’t say how or from which quarter
your affairs will be arranged; I create you out of nowhere and of
nothing.
“If you are the lamp of hearts, know which way leads
homeward. And if you have the qualities of a lord, know that I am your
Overlord.”
--Ghazal 1725 translated by Franklin Lewis, “Rumi--Past and Present,
East and West: The life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalâl al-Din Rumi,”
2003, pp. 354-55; also in Lewis,”Rumi: Swallowing the Sun,” 2008, pp.
78-79
Now to your questions:
--Verse 1: Yes, “mirage of annihilation” is “sarâb-e fanâ”. The word
“fanâ” can also be translated as “passing away”, “becoming non-
existent”.
--Verse 3: ”I am the fashioner” [naqsh-band… man-am] “of the
tabernacle [sarâ-parda] of your contentment” --”tabernacle” means here
“a royal tent,“ and can also be translated as “pavillion”, as did
Lewis.
--Verse 4: Both words mean “sea” or “ocean”; one is Arabic [baHr] and
one is Persian [daryâ]
--Verse 5: Arberry is a literal translator: “the power of flight
[qudrat-e parwâz] and your wings and feet [o par-o pâ-t]”
--Verse 6: literally, “they will highway-rob” [rah-zan-and]
--Verse 7: This means that “associating with very worldly people will
cause you to have bad qualities and to forget God, the pure Source of
your existence”--literally, “your fountain of purity” [sar-chashma-ye
safâ-t]
--Verse 8: “direction” [jihat] is a spacial metaphor here, meaning
“from where,’ ”from what quarter?”--but the Beloved denies that there
are outside sources: “directions” [jihât]
--Verse 9: Let’s invite other members of the group to comment on or
explain this verse. Could Iranian members share anything relevant from
the commentary on the ganjoor.net web page? Or from Dr. Kadkanî’s
commentary, غزلیّات شمس تبریز p. 898?
Ibrahim
------------
Behnaz Hashemipour
May 17, 2012, 3:41:27 AM5/17/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
Dear Gré and Dr. Gamard,
The transliteration and translation of the last line according to Kadkani’s notes on this ghazal are as follows:
Agar cherâgh* delî dân ke (Foruzânfar: dânk) râh-e khâne kojâst
If you have an illumined heart (like a lamp), you should know the way to the house
Vagar Khodâ Sefatî dân ke (Foruzanfar: dânk) kadkhodât manam
And if you have [acquired] the Divine qualities,** then you should know that I AM your Headman***
· * Kadkani’s reading of this word as “cheragh,” instead of “cheragh-e,” which changes the meaning to “the lamp of the heart,” is thoughtful.
· ** The one who by being annihilated in Truth (God) has gained immortality (eternal life) [in union] with the qualities of God (Kadkani’s comment). He then mentions some sources (including the Fîh-e mâ fîh) which have commented on the following saying (Hadîth) from the Holy Prophet: “Acquire God’s qualities.”
· *** Kadkhodâ is the headman of a village.
Behnaz
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
To post to this group, send email to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dar-al-masnav...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.
Iljas Baker
May 17, 2012, 4:04:40 AM5/17/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
The ghazal seems straightforward enough but line two seems ambiguous, hence the very different sets of translations/interpretations. Kabir Hekminski has "mirage of existence" whereas AJ Arberry and Franklin Lewis have "mirage of annihilation". The person being addressed in the ghazal is being guided by the One not to get lost in the earthly condition so it does seem reasonable to think that Kabir's choice is the more appropriate one. Can sarab e fana technically bear Kabir's choice of words? If the phrase cannot actually bear Kabir's choice of words then don't we need to think of another meaning for annihilation, which is often used to translate the sufi term fana? Incidentally, Nader Khalili seems to have thought along similar lines as Kabir as his translation has:"Haven't I told you
don't run away from me
you'll find me like a fountainhead
wherever you go in this mirage."[my emphasis] But for the others, why "mirage of annihilation"? Surely mystical annihilation cannot be described as a mirage and why would reference to mystical annihilation appear right at the beginning of the poem? Surely someone who has experienced or is experiencing fana doesn't need the advice which follows. Could sarab e fana refer to a sort of false (miragic) annihilation of the personality (e.g. as might be experienced through sex or drugs)?
Hope this makes more sense than not.
Salaam,
Iljas
you'll find me like a fountainhead
wherever you go in this mirage."[my emphasis] But for the others, why "mirage of annihilation"? Surely mystical annihilation cannot be described as a mirage and why would reference to mystical annihilation appear right at the beginning of the poem? Surely someone who has experienced or is experiencing fana doesn't need the advice which follows. Could sarab e fana refer to a sort of false (miragic) annihilation of the personality (e.g. as might be experienced through sex or drugs)?
Hope this makes more sense than not.
Salaam,
Iljas
Behnaz Hashemipour
May 17, 2012, 11:35:02 AM5/17/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
Salaam,
Sarâb-e fanâ, refers to this world which is like a mirage (lacking the water [of true life]) and fânî (ephemeral, transient, finite). Only the Divine as the "Fountainhead of [true] life" can save us from this mirage which is called the world.
Behnaz
Iljas Baker
May 17, 2012, 10:39:27 PM5/17/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
Thanks Behnaz, that is helpful.I wonder what Ibrahim's views are. Iljas
Ibrahim
May 18, 2012, 3:28:13 AM5/18/12
to Dar-al-Masnavi
Iljas made a good point, that verse 1 is a challenge to
understand, as shown by the variety of renderings. My view is that the
translation, “mirage of annihilation” [sarâb-e fanâ] is too literal,
so its meaning is unclear in English. The paraphrase, “mirage of
being” is a good attempt at making sense of Arberry’s words (“mirage
of annihilation”), but it is incorrect because the meaning of the
important word “fanâ” is eliminated in this rendering. Also, fanâ here
should not be interpreted as “mystical annihilation” or a personal
state of mystical consciousness. It means that everything created is
passing away, perishing, transient, fleeting, and vanishing: “All that
is upon (the earth) will pass away [fân-in] but the Face of your Lord
will abide [yabqâ], full of majesty and glory” (Qur’ân 55:26-27).
My translation: Didn’t I tell you, “Don’t go there, because I am
your companion!”? In the transient mirage (of the world) I am (the
Source of) the spring water of life.
I agree with Behnaz, who wrote, “Only the Divine as the
Ibrahim
------------------
On May 17, 7:39 pm, Iljas Baker <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Behnaz, that is helpful.I wonder what Ibrahim's views are. Iljas
>
> On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Behnaz Hashemipour <
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> behnaz.hash...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Salaam,
>
> > Sarâb-e fanâ, refers to this world which is like a mirage (lacking the
> > water [of true life]) and fânî (ephemeral, transient, finite). Only the
> > Divine as the "Fountainhead of [true] life" can save us from this mirage
> > which is called the world.
>
> > Behnaz
>
> >> e fana* refer to a sort of false (miragic) annihilation of the
> ...
>
> read more »
understand, as shown by the variety of renderings. My view is that the
translation, “mirage of annihilation” [sarâb-e fanâ] is too literal,
so its meaning is unclear in English. The paraphrase, “mirage of
being” is a good attempt at making sense of Arberry’s words (“mirage
of annihilation”), but it is incorrect because the meaning of the
important word “fanâ” is eliminated in this rendering. Also, fanâ here
should not be interpreted as “mystical annihilation” or a personal
state of mystical consciousness. It means that everything created is
passing away, perishing, transient, fleeting, and vanishing: “All that
is upon (the earth) will pass away [fân-in] but the Face of your Lord
will abide [yabqâ], full of majesty and glory” (Qur’ân 55:26-27).
My translation: Didn’t I tell you, “Don’t go there, because I am
your companion!”? In the transient mirage (of the world) I am (the
Source of) the spring water of life.
I agree with Behnaz, who wrote, “Only the Divine as the
"Fountainhead of [true] life" can save us from this mirage which is
called the world.”
Ibrahim
------------------
On May 17, 7:39 pm, Iljas Baker <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Behnaz, that is helpful.I wonder what Ibrahim's views are. Iljas
>
> On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Behnaz Hashemipour <
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> behnaz.hash...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Salaam,
>
> > Sarâb-e fanâ, refers to this world which is like a mirage (lacking the
> > water [of true life]) and fânî (ephemeral, transient, finite). Only the
> > Divine as the "Fountainhead of [true] life" can save us from this mirage
> > which is called the world.
>
> > Behnaz
>
> > On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Iljas Baker <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> The ghazal seems straightforward enough but line two seems ambiguous,
> >> hence the very different sets of translations/interpretations. Kabir
> >> Hekminski has "mirage of existence" whereas AJ Arberry and Franklin Lewis
> >> have "mirage of annihilation". The person being addressed in the ghazal is
> >> being guided by the One not to get lost in the earthly condition so it does
> >> seem reasonable to think that Kabir's choice is the more appropriate one.
> >> Can *sarab e fana* technically bear Kabir's choice of words? If the
>
> >> The ghazal seems straightforward enough but line two seems ambiguous,
> >> hence the very different sets of translations/interpretations. Kabir
> >> Hekminski has "mirage of existence" whereas AJ Arberry and Franklin Lewis
> >> have "mirage of annihilation". The person being addressed in the ghazal is
> >> being guided by the One not to get lost in the earthly condition so it does
> >> seem reasonable to think that Kabir's choice is the more appropriate one.
> >> phrase cannot actually bear Kabir's choice of words then don't we need to
> >> think of another meaning for annihilation, which is often used to translate
> >> the sufi term *fana*? Incidentally, Nader Khalili seems to have thought
> >> think of another meaning for annihilation, which is often used to translate
> >> along similar lines as Kabir as his translation has:"Haven't I told you
> >> don't run away from me
> >> you'll find me like a fountainhead
> >> wherever you go in* this mirage*."[my emphasis] But for the others, why
> >> don't run away from me
> >> you'll find me like a fountainhead
> >> "mirage of annihilation"? Surely mystical annihilation cannot be described
> >> as a mirage and why would reference to mystical annihilation appear right
> >> at the beginning of the poem? Surely someone who has experienced or is
> >> experiencing *fana *doesn't need the advice which follows. Could *sarab
> >> as a mirage and why would reference to mystical annihilation appear right
> >> at the beginning of the poem? Surely someone who has experienced or is
> >> e fana* refer to a sort of false (miragic) annihilation of the
> >> personality (e.g. as might be experienced through sex or drugs)?
>
> >> Hope this makes more sense than not.
>
> >> Salaam,
>
> >> Iljas
>
>
> >> Hope this makes more sense than not.
>
> >> Salaam,
>
> >> Iljas
>
>
> read more »
Iljas Baker
May 18, 2012, 7:35:51 AM5/18/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
Salaam, Referring to Franklin Lewis's translation, Verse 9 seems to be expressing a core Islamic idea: Whatever there is, Allah is more/greater than that. In Islam we are encouraged to take on the qualities of God but God is greater than we are even if we have taken on His qualities. Of course I don't mean "take on" in the sense of it being something we accomplish, only God can accomplish this for us. Iljas
Behnaz Hashemipour
May 18, 2012, 2:39:31 PM5/18/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
Salaam,
I just learned that in two of the most authoritative Persian dictionaries, Burhân-e QâTi’ and Fargang-e Jahângîrî (both compiled in the 17th century by Iranians in India), one of the meanings of the word “kadkhoda” has been defined as “the owner of the house (kad: the house; khoda: the owner).” This way, the semantic relationship between the two parts of the last line becomes stronger. I humbly suggest the following translation:
If you have an illuminated heart, know the way that leads to the house
And if you have “Godlike attributes” (Arberry), know that I AM the Owner of your house.
Behnaz
E.S.Quinlan
May 18, 2012, 3:55:36 PM5/18/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
Ibrahim,
Salaam. I think your translation "transient mirage" is efficacious and agree that "mirage of annihilation" doesn't make sense, especially as applied to mystical fana--which is real existence. But since mirage is by definition transient, perhaps the adjective "transient" is unnecessary. The Sanskrit terms "samsara" or "maya" fit this context perfectly. I 've pasted in here a powerful, short teaching story that correlates well with this topic. Maybe it will speak to others in the group, too.
Best Regards, Sakinah
Salaam. I think your translation "transient mirage" is efficacious and agree that "mirage of annihilation" doesn't make sense, especially as applied to mystical fana--which is real existence. But since mirage is by definition transient, perhaps the adjective "transient" is unnecessary. The Sanskrit terms "samsara" or "maya" fit this context perfectly. I 've pasted in here a powerful, short teaching story that correlates well with this topic. Maybe it will speak to others in the group, too.
Best Regards, Sakinah
The Story of Sri Krishna and Narada
This ancient story about the complex relationship between the perishable world and the its Divine Purpose appears in different versions in several spiritual traditions. Here it is presented with Hindu terminology and characters.
Narada was a devoted disciple. Her master Lord Krishna[1] was so pleased with her that one day while they were out walking together, Krishna said, “You may ask me whatever you want and I will grant it.” Since Narada was already quite illumined and wanted nothing for herself, she had to think for a while. Finally, she remembered that for all the breadth and depth of her spiritual experience there was one thing she had never understood.
“Lord, explain to me how you have become the cosmos, from the smallest atom to the greatest star. Tell me how in every being you hide yourself in countless forms, so that people never see that beneath all life there is only One. Show me how you hide yourself as many; tell me the secret of your Maya [illusion].”
The Lord Krishna smiled. The secret of Maya is the final riddle of existence. However, he had to say something for he had given his word. “All right, Narada, but first I am very thirsty; would you please bring me a glass of water?”
Narada set off under the burning tropical sky, towards the nearest village to get the water. The village was further away than it had looked. She grew hot and thirsty himself. She thought she would ask for two glasses of water. At the first house in the village she knocked, and a beautiful young man opened the door. At one glance from him, she forgot why she had come and blurted out, “Will you marry me?”
They married, had many children, and became wealthy, owning many fields and cattle. The years flew by; their children grew up, Narada was a respected matron and village leader. Then one day a terrible flood came, sweeping away everything—houses, cattle, and crops. All of her family was drowned. She lost everything, and at that moment she called out “Help me, Lord.” Immediately she saw Krishna before her, smiling. “Narada, where is my glass of water?” he asked. Then Narada remembered and fell at the feet of
the Lord who had answered her question.
[1] Krishna is one of the earthly incarnations of the Hindu god Vishnu .Vishnu (the Preserver),Shiva (the Destroyer), and Brahma (the Creator) who are the three dimensions or attributes of the One God, the Supreme Being called Brahman.
Ibrahim
May 19, 2012, 4:06:10 AM5/19/12
to Dar-al-Masnavi
We can also look at the ways Mawlana used the word “lord of the
house” [kad = house; khodâ = lord, master, owner]. According to
Mawlana scholar, Gawharîn (لغات و تعبیرات مثنوی), there are three
meanings in Masnavi:
(1) the noble person of the house [bozorg-e khâna], the master and
gentleman of the house [sarwar wa âqây-e khâna], and husband [shawhar]
He cites Masnavi 1: 2684, Heading: “...to her husband” (trans.
Nicholson) [kadkhodây-e khwod]
(2) promotor of important business [kâr-sâz wa muhimm-goZâr]
He cites Masnavi 2: 888: “house-steward [kadkhodây] of my property and
business” (trans. Nich.)
(3) senior (leader) and chief [ra’îs wa mehtar]
He cites Masnavi 1: 3791: “I am a shadow, the Sun is my lord…” (trans.
Nich.) [sâya’ê-am kadkhodâ-am âftâb]
My suggestion for verse 9: If you are the heart’s lamp, know where the
road to the house is. And if you are endowed with the attributes of
God,* know that I am your Lord.**
*if you are endowed with the attributes of God [wa gar khodâ-Sifat-î]:
This refers to the sufi saying, “He passes away from his own
attributes and persists in the attributes of God.” “...(but) his
attributes have become non-existent in the attributes of Him (God).”
Masnavi 3: 3670 (trans. Nich.) [nêst gashta waSf-e ô dar waSf-e hû]
** your Lord [kad-khodâ-at man-am]: lit., “the lord of the house for
(ruling over) you”
Ibrahim
-----------
On May 18, 11:39 am, Behnaz Hashemipour <behnaz.hash...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> *
> ...
>
> read more »
house” [kad = house; khodâ = lord, master, owner]. According to
Mawlana scholar, Gawharîn (لغات و تعبیرات مثنوی), there are three
meanings in Masnavi:
(1) the noble person of the house [bozorg-e khâna], the master and
gentleman of the house [sarwar wa âqây-e khâna], and husband [shawhar]
He cites Masnavi 1: 2684, Heading: “...to her husband” (trans.
Nicholson) [kadkhodây-e khwod]
(2) promotor of important business [kâr-sâz wa muhimm-goZâr]
He cites Masnavi 2: 888: “house-steward [kadkhodây] of my property and
business” (trans. Nich.)
(3) senior (leader) and chief [ra’îs wa mehtar]
He cites Masnavi 1: 3791: “I am a shadow, the Sun is my lord…” (trans.
Nich.) [sâya’ê-am kadkhodâ-am âftâb]
My suggestion for verse 9: If you are the heart’s lamp, know where the
road to the house is. And if you are endowed with the attributes of
God,* know that I am your Lord.**
*if you are endowed with the attributes of God [wa gar khodâ-Sifat-î]:
This refers to the sufi saying, “He passes away from his own
attributes and persists in the attributes of God.” “...(but) his
attributes have become non-existent in the attributes of Him (God).”
Masnavi 3: 3670 (trans. Nich.) [nêst gashta waSf-e ô dar waSf-e hû]
** your Lord [kad-khodâ-at man-am]: lit., “the lord of the house for
(ruling over) you”
Ibrahim
-----------
On May 18, 11:39 am, Behnaz Hashemipour <behnaz.hash...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Salaam,
>
> I just learned that in two of the most authoritative Persian dictionaries,
> Burhân-e QâTi’ and Fargang-e Jahângîrî (both compiled in the 17th century
> by Iranians in India), one of the meanings of the word “kadkhoda” has been
> defined as “the owner of the house (kad: the house; khoda: the owner).”
> This way, the semantic relationship between the two parts of the last line
> becomes stronger. I humbly suggest the following translation:
>
> If you have an illuminated heart, know the way that leads to the house
>
> And if you have “Godlike attributes” (Arberry), know that I AM the Owner of
> your house.
>
> Behnaz
>
> *
>
> I just learned that in two of the most authoritative Persian dictionaries,
> Burhân-e QâTi’ and Fargang-e Jahângîrî (both compiled in the 17th century
> by Iranians in India), one of the meanings of the word “kadkhoda” has been
> defined as “the owner of the house (kad: the house; khoda: the owner).”
> This way, the semantic relationship between the two parts of the last line
> becomes stronger. I humbly suggest the following translation:
>
> If you have an illuminated heart, know the way that leads to the house
>
> And if you have “Godlike attributes” (Arberry), know that I AM the Owner of
> your house.
>
> Behnaz
>
> *
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 4:35 AM, Iljas Baker <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Salaam, Referring to Franklin Lewis's translation, Verse 9 seems to be
> > expressing a core Islamic idea: Whatever there is, Allah is more/greater
> > than that. In Islam we are encouraged to take on the qualities of God but
> > God is greater than we are even if we have taken on His qualities. Of
> > course I don't mean "take on" in the sense of it being something *we*accomplish, only God can accomplish this for us. Iljas
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 4:35 AM, Iljas Baker <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Salaam, Referring to Franklin Lewis's translation, Verse 9 seems to be
> > expressing a core Islamic idea: Whatever there is, Allah is more/greater
> > than that. In Islam we are encouraged to take on the qualities of God but
> > God is greater than we are even if we have taken on His qualities. Of
>
> read more »
Behnaz Hashemipour
May 19, 2012, 12:07:23 PM5/19/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
Salaam,
Would you please comment more on "the heart’s lamp." I am asking this because every single word of this ghazal is so dear to me. Are there any connections between the lamp in this line with the lamp in the Light Verse (Qur'an, 24:35) where, according to some interpretations, the lamp is the light or the innermost secret of the heart?
Behnaz
Ibrahim
May 19, 2012, 8:43:51 PM5/19/12
to Dar-al-Masnavi
Salâm,
Re verse 9: Am not seeing a connection to the Light verse in
Qur’ân, which begins, “God is the Light of the heavens and the earth.
The similitude of His Light is as if there were a niche within which
is a lamp [miSbâH].” And it ends, “God guides to His Light whom He
will.” In other words, God guides to Himself (as the Light which
reveals Divine Reality/Truth) whom He will.” However, Mawlana’s verse
begins, “If you are the (God-given) heart’s lamp”--in other words, “If
you are the guiding light for your heart”-- “know where the road to
the house is”--in other words, “then be the lamp for your heart to
guide it in the dark to the road that leads to the heart’s original
home.”
Here, I think there is more of a connection to what sufis call
the “Day of Alast,” the primordial condition before the creation when
the souls of humanity were near to their Creator and were asked by
God, “Am I not your Lord [alastu bi-rabbi-kum]?” And the souls
answered, “But of course!” (Qur’ân 7:172). Mawlana often relates the
soul’s longing to return to it’s original home (as in the “Song of the
Reed”).
Have checked to see if the words “the heart’s lamp” [cherâgh-e
del] occur elsewhere in Mawlana’s Divan or Masnavi, but they do not.
There seem to be three levels in this poem:
(1) The historical, according to which Mawlana composed this
ghazal in regard to the murder of Sultan Ruknuddin, who had become
Mawlana’s disciple, had asked Mawlana’s advice about attending a
meeting with his (conspiring) military commanders in another town
about how to ward off the Mongol invaders, and when advised not to go,
he went there anyway and was strangled by them. Mawlana composed two
ghazals in response: F-1725, “Didn’t I tell you don’t go there? I’m
your friend. In this mirage of perdition I’m the spring of
life.” (trans, John O’Kane, “ The Feats of the Knowers of God, Manâqeb
al-`arefîn),” p. 104). And F-912: ”Didn’t I tell you don’t go there?
They’ll afflict you. They’ll oppress you and they’ll chain your
legs.” (trans. O’Kane) [This ghazal has been translated only by Ergin;
there is no mystical content, only warnings, such as, “They will pull
you out of this body, like the wool of sheep’s leader is shorn.”]
(2) The personal, where Mawlana speaks to the Sultan as his sufi
shaykh, and therefore to all his sufi disciples: “for I am your
friend.”
(3) the Divine, where the voice of God is speaking through
Mawlana: “I am the Creator” [khallâq].
Interestingly, the Turkish translator from Persian, Golpinarli
(as translated into English by Nevit Ergin) seems to have interpreted
verse 9 as if Mawlana was still addressing the (dead) Sultan Ruknuddin
as a deficient disciple: “If there is a light in your heart, tell Me,
where is the road to the house? I am the host of your house; you would
know that if you had God’s disposition.” (“Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi:
Divan-i Kebir, Meter 7b,” p. 97) However the Persian text does not
say, "tell Me," nor does there appear to be a question here (unlike
verse 1).
Ibrahim
----------------
On May 19, 9:07 am, Behnaz Hashemipour <behnaz.hash...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Salaam,
>
> ...
>
> read more »
Re verse 9: Am not seeing a connection to the Light verse in
Qur’ân, which begins, “God is the Light of the heavens and the earth.
The similitude of His Light is as if there were a niche within which
is a lamp [miSbâH].” And it ends, “God guides to His Light whom He
will.” In other words, God guides to Himself (as the Light which
reveals Divine Reality/Truth) whom He will.” However, Mawlana’s verse
begins, “If you are the (God-given) heart’s lamp”--in other words, “If
you are the guiding light for your heart”-- “know where the road to
the house is”--in other words, “then be the lamp for your heart to
guide it in the dark to the road that leads to the heart’s original
home.”
Here, I think there is more of a connection to what sufis call
the “Day of Alast,” the primordial condition before the creation when
the souls of humanity were near to their Creator and were asked by
God, “Am I not your Lord [alastu bi-rabbi-kum]?” And the souls
answered, “But of course!” (Qur’ân 7:172). Mawlana often relates the
soul’s longing to return to it’s original home (as in the “Song of the
Reed”).
Have checked to see if the words “the heart’s lamp” [cherâgh-e
del] occur elsewhere in Mawlana’s Divan or Masnavi, but they do not.
There seem to be three levels in this poem:
(1) The historical, according to which Mawlana composed this
ghazal in regard to the murder of Sultan Ruknuddin, who had become
Mawlana’s disciple, had asked Mawlana’s advice about attending a
meeting with his (conspiring) military commanders in another town
about how to ward off the Mongol invaders, and when advised not to go,
he went there anyway and was strangled by them. Mawlana composed two
ghazals in response: F-1725, “Didn’t I tell you don’t go there? I’m
your friend. In this mirage of perdition I’m the spring of
life.” (trans, John O’Kane, “ The Feats of the Knowers of God, Manâqeb
al-`arefîn),” p. 104). And F-912: ”Didn’t I tell you don’t go there?
They’ll afflict you. They’ll oppress you and they’ll chain your
legs.” (trans. O’Kane) [This ghazal has been translated only by Ergin;
there is no mystical content, only warnings, such as, “They will pull
you out of this body, like the wool of sheep’s leader is shorn.”]
(2) The personal, where Mawlana speaks to the Sultan as his sufi
shaykh, and therefore to all his sufi disciples: “for I am your
friend.”
(3) the Divine, where the voice of God is speaking through
Mawlana: “I am the Creator” [khallâq].
Interestingly, the Turkish translator from Persian, Golpinarli
(as translated into English by Nevit Ergin) seems to have interpreted
verse 9 as if Mawlana was still addressing the (dead) Sultan Ruknuddin
as a deficient disciple: “If there is a light in your heart, tell Me,
where is the road to the house? I am the host of your house; you would
know that if you had God’s disposition.” (“Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi:
Divan-i Kebir, Meter 7b,” p. 97) However the Persian text does not
say, "tell Me," nor does there appear to be a question here (unlike
verse 1).
Ibrahim
----------------
On May 19, 9:07 am, Behnaz Hashemipour <behnaz.hash...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Salaam,
>
>
> read more »
Ibrahim
May 20, 2012, 1:19:28 AM5/20/12
to Dar-al-Masnavi
Dear Sakinah,
Salâm,
Thanks for sharing the story about maya, which was very suitable for
our discussion; it seemed familiar, so I must have read it many years
ago. Per verse 1, I think that the adjective "transient" is not
unnecessary or redundant. It is a translation of Mawlana's adjective
[sarâb-e fanâ = mirage of transience, transient mirage]. I have seen a
mirage, driving in the high desert, and it lasted quite a while (much
longer than a rainbow). I can imagine people walking in a desert who
were ignorant about mirages, walking for several days toward a distant
"lake" (depending on their direction and the position of the sun)
until they realized that it was an illusion. And that is the lesson
about mirages: they are optical illusions as well as transient, and
that is why a mirage is a good analogy for the transient world [dunya,
`âlam] (compared to God the Eternal, Lord of all the worlds [`âlamîn])
and this transient worldly life. Hazrat-e `Ali (may Allah be please
with him) said, "Life is a dream, we wake up when we die." And Prophet
Muhammad (may Allah pour peace and blessings upon him) said, ""I have
nothing to do with this world, I am in this world like a rider who
halts in the shade of a tree for a short time and after taking some
rest, resumes his journey leaving the tree behind." (Tirmizi)
Ibrahim
--------
On May 18, 12:55 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ibrahim,
> Salaam. I think your translation "transient mirage" is efficacious and
> agree that "mirage of annihilation" doesn't make sense, especially as
> applied to mystical fana--which is *real* existence. But since mirage is
>
> Narada was a devoted disciple. Her master Lord Krishna[1] <#_ftn1> was so
> ------------------------------
>
> [1] <#_ftnref1> Krishna is one of the earthly incarnations of the Hindu god
> ...
>
> read more »
Salâm,
Thanks for sharing the story about maya, which was very suitable for
our discussion; it seemed familiar, so I must have read it many years
ago. Per verse 1, I think that the adjective "transient" is not
unnecessary or redundant. It is a translation of Mawlana's adjective
[sarâb-e fanâ = mirage of transience, transient mirage]. I have seen a
mirage, driving in the high desert, and it lasted quite a while (much
longer than a rainbow). I can imagine people walking in a desert who
were ignorant about mirages, walking for several days toward a distant
"lake" (depending on their direction and the position of the sun)
until they realized that it was an illusion. And that is the lesson
about mirages: they are optical illusions as well as transient, and
that is why a mirage is a good analogy for the transient world [dunya,
`âlam] (compared to God the Eternal, Lord of all the worlds [`âlamîn])
and this transient worldly life. Hazrat-e `Ali (may Allah be please
with him) said, "Life is a dream, we wake up when we die." And Prophet
Muhammad (may Allah pour peace and blessings upon him) said, ""I have
nothing to do with this world, I am in this world like a rider who
halts in the shade of a tree for a short time and after taking some
rest, resumes his journey leaving the tree behind." (Tirmizi)
Ibrahim
--------
On May 18, 12:55 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ibrahim,
> Salaam. I think your translation "transient mirage" is efficacious and
> agree that "mirage of annihilation" doesn't make sense, especially as
> by definition transient, perhaps the adjective "transient" is unnecessary.
> The Sanskrit terms "samsara" or "maya" fit this context perfectly. I
> 've pasted in here a powerful, short teaching story that correlates well
> with this topic. Maybe it will speak to others in the group, too.
> Best Regards, Sakinah
>
> The Story of Sri Krishna and Narada
>
> *This ancient story about the complex relationship between the perishable
> The Sanskrit terms "samsara" or "maya" fit this context perfectly. I
> 've pasted in here a powerful, short teaching story that correlates well
> with this topic. Maybe it will speak to others in the group, too.
> Best Regards, Sakinah
>
> The Story of Sri Krishna and Narada
>
> world and the its Divine Purpose appears in different versions in several
> spiritual traditions. Here it is presented with Hindu terminology and
> characters. *
> spiritual traditions. Here it is presented with Hindu terminology and
>
> Narada was a devoted disciple. Her master Lord Krishna[1] <#_ftn1> was so
>
> [1] <#_ftnref1> Krishna is one of the earthly incarnations of the Hindu god
>
> read more »
Iljas Baker
May 20, 2012, 3:03:07 AM5/20/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
Salaam,
On the most important level, "trying to understand" what can only be unveiled is only a preliminary step. We might think we know the meaning but it would not be the Reality (haqiqa) of the poem. It appears to be God talking to us through Mevlana as Ibrahim said. And He is using juxtaposition, indeed a series of juxtapositions:
transient mirage contrasted with fountain of life
departure contrasted with return
contentment with this world contrasted with He who creates the possibility (through the human body and its senses) of this contentment
dry land contrasted with the sea
a snare for birds contrasted with the power and tools of flight
cold death (spiritual perhaps) through following the nafs contrasted with the essence of desire
ugliness contrasted with the source of purity
the seen (direction) contrasted with the Unseen (directionless)
intelligence which can be used to find the road contrasted with home (the destination)
godlike attributes contrasted with God (the source of these attributes).
The original audience would probably not of course have to work out the literal meaning and could probably go straight to the task that Rumi was intending: Reflection/contemplation on the nature of life and God.
Perhaps, and I think it to be the case, presenting a series of juxtapositions makes reflection/contemplation rather than discursive thinking more likely. Ultimately, the inner meaning would be unveiled.
Iljas
Ibrahim
May 20, 2012, 3:51:25 PM5/20/12
to Dar-al-Masnavi
Dear Iljas,
Salâm,
Thanks for your interesting thoughts about the effects on the listener
of the juxtaposing metaphors in the poem.
Here are two other features, common in Mawlana's ghazals (and
quatrains) that the original audience would have recognized:
(1) The reference to a verse from the Qur'ân in verse 2
(mentioned by Dr. Kadkanî in his Persian commentary on this ghazal):
"...in the end you will come to Me, for I am your goal [ke muntahâ-at
man-am]." This refers to the verse, "And that the final goal [al-
muntahà] is to your Lord" (53:42). The frequent references to Qur'anic
verses throughout Mawlana's poetry is, by the way, evidence that he
probably memorized the Qur'ân as a boy.
(2) The word-plays in verse 9 (Mawlana loved word-play, such as
puns): "If you are the heart’s lamp, know where the road to the house
[khâna] is. And if you are endowed with Lordly attributes [khodâ-
Sifat], know that I am for you the Lord of the house [ke kad-khodâ-at
man-am]."
Ibrahim
--------------
Salâm,
Thanks for your interesting thoughts about the effects on the listener
of the juxtaposing metaphors in the poem.
Here are two other features, common in Mawlana's ghazals (and
quatrains) that the original audience would have recognized:
(1) The reference to a verse from the Qur'ân in verse 2
(mentioned by Dr. Kadkanî in his Persian commentary on this ghazal):
"...in the end you will come to Me, for I am your goal [ke muntahâ-at
man-am]." This refers to the verse, "And that the final goal [al-
muntahà] is to your Lord" (53:42). The frequent references to Qur'anic
verses throughout Mawlana's poetry is, by the way, evidence that he
probably memorized the Qur'ân as a boy.
(2) The word-plays in verse 9 (Mawlana loved word-play, such as
puns): "If you are the heart’s lamp, know where the road to the house
[khâna] is. And if you are endowed with Lordly attributes [khodâ-
Sifat], know that I am for you the Lord of the house [ke kad-khodâ-at
man-am]."
Ibrahim
--------------
Iljas Baker
May 21, 2012, 11:26:04 PM5/21/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
Salaam,
Rumi's works are full of references to Al Qur'an and that I believe is not just a reflection of the fact that Rumi was steeped in the Qur'an, was a hafiz etc but is also related in large part to Rumi's mission or one of Rumi's missions, that is to revivify the faith and practise of Muslims. He did this in part in his works I believe by de-emphasising (not negating) the legalism of the Qur'an as interpreted by the ulama and pointing to the inner meaning of Qur'anic verses and of the contents of Islam. He reminds Muslims of the inner meaning of faith, prayer, fasting and the like. There is a tendency now to see Sufism as separate from Islam or to see the practice of Islam as somehow as being less important than Sufi practices and that may be the case for many modern Sufis. I don't want to get into arguing about the validity or invalidity of the various positions on Sufism and its relation to Islam but clearly Rumi was writing for Muslims, hence my opening statement. I believe how translators/interpreters understand Rumi's mission largely influences their approach to their task of turning Rumi's language into what they take as acceptable English.
I think some of these interpreters are not too concerned with Rumi's mission as stated in my opening sentence.
For Rumi I believe the practices and faith of Islam were essential to the human response to the fact of existence, not simply a base on which to build Sufism. And I don't think for Rumi Islam was a dead thing to be replaced by Sufism. He was revivifying Islam not abandoning it.
We are all lovers of Mevlana but what meanings do his works have for us and even how do we use his works? Are we responding to the specifically Islamic call of Rumi or reducing his works for entertainment only or to support some vague New Age notion of oneness or world re-enchantment.
I am aware that my thoughts could be misinterpreted as exclusionary, of somehow saying Rumi is really for Muslims and the rest of you "hands off". Forgive me if that's how it seems.That is not my intention. I am just trying to articulate something that I feel often gets ignored. Reading ghazal 1725 and the comments on this led to my focus on this aspect of Mevlana's message.
Iljas
Majid Kevin Buell
May 23, 2012, 9:57:17 AM5/23/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
Hu!
Read the translation of Kenan Rifai's commentary on the first book of the Masnevi of Moulana. It really illustrates the facility and expertise with which Moulana teaches and is all Al-Quran. The book is called "Listen" and is translated by Professor Holbrook from the Turkish with her own new translation of Book One's Persian text. Its also a great introduction to the art of Sohbet as it was done in the latter days of the Ottomans in a Rifai Tekke.
The only problem I have found with the Rifai book is spelling and some errors of grammar <grin> which may mean it was rushed to print. Also read the translators foreword about some of her usage such as using the word soul for nafs etc.
Majid Buell
Read the translation of Kenan Rifai's commentary on the first book of the Masnevi of Moulana. It really illustrates the facility and expertise with which Moulana teaches and is all Al-Quran. The book is called "Listen" and is translated by Professor Holbrook from the Turkish with her own new translation of Book One's Persian text. Its also a great introduction to the art of Sohbet as it was done in the latter days of the Ottomans in a Rifai Tekke.
The only problem I have found with the Rifai book is spelling and some errors of grammar <grin> which may mean it was rushed to print. Also read the translators foreword about some of her usage such as using the word soul for nafs etc.
Majid Buell
gré
May 25, 2012, 11:47:19 AM5/25/12
to Dar-al-Masnavi
Finally getting back to the forum just now to see if anyone was kind
enough to offer any help, I am totally astonished at the wealth of
replies and have copied all 18 received to date into a Word document
to print and pour over during a long coffee break this afternoon. I am
truly blown away by your unbounded generosity. Thank you each and all,
most sincerely!!! Gretchen
enough to offer any help, I am totally astonished at the wealth of
replies and have copied all 18 received to date into a Word document
to print and pour over during a long coffee break this afternoon. I am
truly blown away by your unbounded generosity. Thank you each and all,
most sincerely!!! Gretchen
Ibrahim
Jun 2, 2012, 9:07:14 PM6/2/12
to Dar-al-Masnavi
Dear Gré,
Glad you are pleased by the discussion of this ghazal poem. It was the
best discussion on this Group for quite a while. There were six of us
who participated, out of a total current membership of 120. Hopefully,
the silent members found it interesting and valuable--as well as
others on the Internet who may have followed the discussion on the
blog format, kindly set up by Panevis in early 2008:
http://dar-al-masnavi.blogspot.com/
Dear Iljas,
Am in agreement that Mawlana had a mission of revivifying the faith
and practice of Muslims. He said that the Masnavi is "the roots of the
roots of the roots of the Religion [al-dîn] in respect of (its)
unveiling the mysteries of attainment (to the Truth) and of certainty
[yaqîn].... It is... the expounder of the Qur'ân [kashâfu 'l-
qur'ân]..." (Masnavi, Preface to Book 1, trans. Nicholson)
And am in agreement that he did this, as you wrote, "...in part, in
his works, I believe, by de-emphasising (not negating) the legalism of
via the traditional sufi view that the religious law [sharî`at] is the
foundation for the mystical path [Tarîqat], which in turn is the
foundation for realization of divine reality [Haqîqat]:
"This is the fifth bound volume of the books of the Mathnawi and the
clarification of spiritual meanings, in explanation that the (Islamic)
religious Law [sharî`at] is like a candle (which) shows the way. For
if you can't bring a candle to hand, there is no travelling on the
way. And when you have come onto the way, that travelling of yours is
(called) the (mystical) Path [Tarîqat], and when you have arrived to
the goal, that is the Truth [Haqîqat]. And in regard to this, it has
been said, "If (Divine) truths and realities were evident (for all to
see), religious laws would be made useless." -- Masnavi V: Preface,
from:
http://dara-al-masnavi.org/rumi-on-masnavi.html
Ibrahim
-------------
Glad you are pleased by the discussion of this ghazal poem. It was the
best discussion on this Group for quite a while. There were six of us
who participated, out of a total current membership of 120. Hopefully,
the silent members found it interesting and valuable--as well as
others on the Internet who may have followed the discussion on the
blog format, kindly set up by Panevis in early 2008:
http://dar-al-masnavi.blogspot.com/
Dear Iljas,
Am in agreement that Mawlana had a mission of revivifying the faith
and practice of Muslims. He said that the Masnavi is "the roots of the
roots of the roots of the Religion [al-dîn] in respect of (its)
unveiling the mysteries of attainment (to the Truth) and of certainty
[yaqîn].... It is... the expounder of the Qur'ân [kashâfu 'l-
qur'ân]..." (Masnavi, Preface to Book 1, trans. Nicholson)
And am in agreement that he did this, as you wrote, "...in part, in
his works, I believe, by de-emphasising (not negating) the legalism of
the Qur'an as interpreted by the ulama and pointing to the inner
meaning of Qur'anic verses and of the contents of Islam." He did this
via the traditional sufi view that the religious law [sharî`at] is the
foundation for the mystical path [Tarîqat], which in turn is the
foundation for realization of divine reality [Haqîqat]:
"This is the fifth bound volume of the books of the Mathnawi and the
clarification of spiritual meanings, in explanation that the (Islamic)
religious Law [sharî`at] is like a candle (which) shows the way. For
if you can't bring a candle to hand, there is no travelling on the
way. And when you have come onto the way, that travelling of yours is
(called) the (mystical) Path [Tarîqat], and when you have arrived to
the goal, that is the Truth [Haqîqat]. And in regard to this, it has
been said, "If (Divine) truths and realities were evident (for all to
see), religious laws would be made useless." -- Masnavi V: Preface,
from:
http://dara-al-masnavi.org/rumi-on-masnavi.html
Ibrahim
-------------
Ibrahim Gamard
Jul 8, 2012, 10:51:41 PM7/8/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
Dear Gré,
Glad to read that you heard an audio file of the ghazal, the first
words of which are: "Didn't I tell you . . .? [na-goft-am-at], and the
ending rhyme is "I am your X" [Xâ-t man-am".
1. The historical circumstances per this ghazal, the story of
Ruknuddin: no comments.
2. Re verse 3, where Lewis translated "the outer scheme and semblance
of the world" [naqsh-e jahân], Arberry translated more literally as
"worldly form." It can also be translated, "Didn't I tell you: 'Don't
become content (with) worldly forms'?"
3. I haven't translated the entire ghazal and only offered some
alternative translations.
4. I thought further about the question of whether "you are the lamp
of the heart" in verse 9 might possibly be an interpretation of Light
verse of the Qur'an ("God is the Light of the heavens and the earth.
[Q.24:35])--perhaps in juxtaposition with the Divine saying [Hadîs
al-qudsî): "My heavens and My earth do not contain Me, but the heart
of My believing servant contains Me" [lâ yas`a-nî arD-î wa lâ samâ'-î
wa yas`a-nî qalbu `abd-î 'l-mû'min]. Then I looked in "Sufi
Commentaries on the Qur'an in Classical Islam" by Kristin Zahra Sands,
2008 (a friend of Sakinah's, an excellent and scholarly introduction
to the subject, highly recommended) to an interesting table: "A
comparison of interpretations of the elements of the niche in the
Light Verse". Nishaburi (died 1327) interpreted the glass as the heart
[qalb] and the lamp as the innermost heart [sirr]. Al-Kashani (died
1329) also interpreted the glass as the heart, but the lamp as Spirit
[rûH]. Al-Ghazali (died 1111) interpreted the glass as imaginal spirit
[rûH khayâlî] and the lamp as rational spirit [rûH `aqlî]. My
conclusion: Mawlana (died 1207) may have been familiar with
Al-Ghazali's interpretation of the Light Verse, but I found no support
that he viewed "the lamp of the heart" in these terms (and he had
little interest in this kind of sufi speculation).
5. No, "agar" should not be translated as "since," because it contains
a sense of uncertainty: if, although, in case; "agar-na": if not, or
else, otherwise.
6. According to Steingass' 1892 Persian-English dictionary, the
etymology of "God; master, owner" [khodâ] according to some is
"self-coming" [khwod-ây]; according to others, related to Sanskrit
"self-given" = "self-created" [sva-datta]. I don't think these
derivations are useful for understanding related words in Mawlana's
time, such as khodây (God), khodâwand (king, lord, master), and
khodâwandgâr (Lord of the world; a king; a great man). Yes, after the
death of his father (and before), Mawlana became his successor and was
called Khodavandgar (meaning a "great man"--not "God-like," which is
contrary to Islam).
7. Yes, ghazal 1725 was translated by Shahram Shiva ("Hush: Don't Say
Anything to God: Passionate Poems of Rumi," 2000, pp. 90-91--he lists
no source texts, but this one is easily found), which ends, "...it is
me, who is the chief of the village of your life." As for his
translation, I do not recommend it; compare it to Arberry's literal
translation and you will see that Shiva has added quite a few
interpretations. I'm critical of many of Mr. Shiva's interpretations.
For example, the title of this book is from the title of his
translation of ghazal 2217: "See my ashen face, feel my ceaseless
pain, and don't say anything to God." [chehra-ye zard ma-râ bîn-o
ma-râ hêch ma-gû/ dard-e bê-Had be-negar, bahra khodâ hêch ma-gû] "See
my yellow face and don't say anything to me. Look at (my) suffering
without limit, (but) for God's sake, don't speak." As you can see
there is no "don't say anything to God" in verse one (or in three
other verses) and this blasphemous interpretation is only in Shiva's
imagination. Perhaps he thought this emphasized Rumi as a very
passionate and radical mystic.
Ibrahim
------------
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 12:49 PM, gré <gvd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> • I was thrilled to find an mp3 of the ghazal. Has anyone a link to a
> transliteration? I hear 'Didn't I tell you' as 'Na guff ta mat'. Lovely,
> lovely reading. It's very 'stern' and the pounding of the 'I AM' — manam —
> is powerful.
> Other questions:
> • I find Abdulbaki Golpinarli's interpretation, presented by Dr. Gamard,
> fascinating and completely likely — that Maulana was simultaneously
> addressing his living disciples and his recently deceased disciple, Sultan
> Rokn al-din. Also, I find it a challenge to believe that a mystic of
> Maulana's stature would 'waste a word' and, what Dr. Gamard presented from
> F-912, seems not dissimilar to descriptions of death from other sources —
> e.g., the departure of Socrates in Plato's 'Phaedo'.
> • In the third couplet, is there a term that substantiates Dr. Lewis's,
> "scheme and semblance". Would any others take the idea here to be we're
> pretty absorbed in the externals and Divine Reality — Truth — and Love are
> to be experienced thru Dhikr or Salah — i.e., that contentment is 'an inside
> job' and comes from turning to God in quiet contemplation?
> • Dr. Gamard, I appreciated your translation of the first and ninth verses.
> Would you share your entire translation on the Board?
> • I enjoyed the suggestion that the first line of the ninth verse might
> relate to the 'Light verse' in the Qur'an! And, honestly — and I understand
> this is not an Islamic view — believe Maulana may be referring to inner
> light, Divine light, that is experienced as the soul departs from the body.
> The first verses of the Gospel, according to Saint John, it says: "4 In him
> was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in
> darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." My understanding is that
> consciousness, or spirit — soul — manifests as light.
> • Could 'if' in verse nine be translated as 'since'? I.e., "Since your heart
> is illumined, you will know the way Home; and since you possess the Lord's
> qualities [—as in Genesis, made in the image of God—] you will know I AM the
> Lord of your Home. "
> • I'd read somewhere that 'Khoda', etymologically means, 'He Himself comes'.
> Is that right? And somewhere online it says that the title, I guess you call
> it, Khodavandgar, used in Shams al din Mohammed Aflaki's, 'Feats...' means
> God-like one. Could someone break that down, please — like what does
> 'vandgar' mean?
> • I relished the point made by Iljas that the 'haqiqa' of a Murshid-i
> Kamil's utterances are not grasped by sheer intellect. Also, I suspect,
> 'you'd have to have been there' — i.e., that the presence of such a
> Personage infuses his outpourings with clarity impossible, perhaps, for us
> to grasp without personal experience of his spiritual state or, is it,
> station.
> • Please forgive any faux pas in my post as my background in Islam is truly
> nil.
> • I also found the 'pick up' by Iljas of the use of opposites wonderful.
> Doesn't Maulana say we ONLY know by opposites — that you can't convey a
> message writing (with black ink) on black paper. I made a list for myself
> incorporating that of Iljas — 1. illusion, reality; transient, eternal;
> death, life. 2. out, in; departure; return; (descent; ascent). 3. external,
> internal; worldly, other worldly; creation, Creator. 4. wet, dry; sea,
> desert; in our 'element', out of our 'element; ocean of non-existence;
> existent drop/(fish); Creator, creature. 5. captured, released; confined,
> freed; 'grounded', liberated. 6. cold, hot; damped, ignited; apathetic,
> enthralled. 7. impure, pure; derivative, original; ugly, beautiful. 8.
> caused, uncaused; disordered, orderly; spatial, beyond space.
> • Does anyone know the translator of a version that begins, "Didn't I tell
> you not to go to that place?" Oh, I Googled the line. It's Shahram Shiva's
> version. Please, any views on its accuracy? It does acknowledge the 'chief
> of the village' meaning of 'kadkhoda' that Behnaz kindly supplied from Dr.
> Kadkani's commentary.
> • Khamush! Thanks deeply for any replies to any of these points and
> questions. Gré
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/dar-al-masnavi/-/eJlcHWQDcBoJ.
Glad to read that you heard an audio file of the ghazal, the first
words of which are: "Didn't I tell you . . .? [na-goft-am-at], and the
ending rhyme is "I am your X" [Xâ-t man-am".
1. The historical circumstances per this ghazal, the story of
Ruknuddin: no comments.
2. Re verse 3, where Lewis translated "the outer scheme and semblance
of the world" [naqsh-e jahân], Arberry translated more literally as
"worldly form." It can also be translated, "Didn't I tell you: 'Don't
become content (with) worldly forms'?"
3. I haven't translated the entire ghazal and only offered some
alternative translations.
4. I thought further about the question of whether "you are the lamp
of the heart" in verse 9 might possibly be an interpretation of Light
verse of the Qur'an ("God is the Light of the heavens and the earth.
The similitude of His Light is as if there were a niche within which
is a lamp. . . God guides to His Light whom He will”
[Q.24:35])--perhaps in juxtaposition with the Divine saying [Hadîs
al-qudsî): "My heavens and My earth do not contain Me, but the heart
of My believing servant contains Me" [lâ yas`a-nî arD-î wa lâ samâ'-î
wa yas`a-nî qalbu `abd-î 'l-mû'min]. Then I looked in "Sufi
Commentaries on the Qur'an in Classical Islam" by Kristin Zahra Sands,
2008 (a friend of Sakinah's, an excellent and scholarly introduction
to the subject, highly recommended) to an interesting table: "A
comparison of interpretations of the elements of the niche in the
Light Verse". Nishaburi (died 1327) interpreted the glass as the heart
[qalb] and the lamp as the innermost heart [sirr]. Al-Kashani (died
1329) also interpreted the glass as the heart, but the lamp as Spirit
[rûH]. Al-Ghazali (died 1111) interpreted the glass as imaginal spirit
[rûH khayâlî] and the lamp as rational spirit [rûH `aqlî]. My
conclusion: Mawlana (died 1207) may have been familiar with
Al-Ghazali's interpretation of the Light Verse, but I found no support
that he viewed "the lamp of the heart" in these terms (and he had
little interest in this kind of sufi speculation).
5. No, "agar" should not be translated as "since," because it contains
a sense of uncertainty: if, although, in case; "agar-na": if not, or
else, otherwise.
6. According to Steingass' 1892 Persian-English dictionary, the
etymology of "God; master, owner" [khodâ] according to some is
"self-coming" [khwod-ây]; according to others, related to Sanskrit
"self-given" = "self-created" [sva-datta]. I don't think these
derivations are useful for understanding related words in Mawlana's
time, such as khodây (God), khodâwand (king, lord, master), and
khodâwandgâr (Lord of the world; a king; a great man). Yes, after the
death of his father (and before), Mawlana became his successor and was
called Khodavandgar (meaning a "great man"--not "God-like," which is
contrary to Islam).
7. Yes, ghazal 1725 was translated by Shahram Shiva ("Hush: Don't Say
Anything to God: Passionate Poems of Rumi," 2000, pp. 90-91--he lists
no source texts, but this one is easily found), which ends, "...it is
me, who is the chief of the village of your life." As for his
translation, I do not recommend it; compare it to Arberry's literal
translation and you will see that Shiva has added quite a few
interpretations. I'm critical of many of Mr. Shiva's interpretations.
For example, the title of this book is from the title of his
translation of ghazal 2217: "See my ashen face, feel my ceaseless
pain, and don't say anything to God." [chehra-ye zard ma-râ bîn-o
ma-râ hêch ma-gû/ dard-e bê-Had be-negar, bahra khodâ hêch ma-gû] "See
my yellow face and don't say anything to me. Look at (my) suffering
without limit, (but) for God's sake, don't speak." As you can see
there is no "don't say anything to God" in verse one (or in three
other verses) and this blasphemous interpretation is only in Shiva's
imagination. Perhaps he thought this emphasized Rumi as a very
passionate and radical mystic.
Ibrahim
------------
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 12:49 PM, gré <gvd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> • I was thrilled to find an mp3 of the ghazal. Has anyone a link to a
> transliteration? I hear 'Didn't I tell you' as 'Na guff ta mat'. Lovely,
> lovely reading. It's very 'stern' and the pounding of the 'I AM' — manam —
> is powerful.
> Other questions:
> • I find Abdulbaki Golpinarli's interpretation, presented by Dr. Gamard,
> fascinating and completely likely — that Maulana was simultaneously
> addressing his living disciples and his recently deceased disciple, Sultan
> Rokn al-din. Also, I find it a challenge to believe that a mystic of
> Maulana's stature would 'waste a word' and, what Dr. Gamard presented from
> F-912, seems not dissimilar to descriptions of death from other sources —
> e.g., the departure of Socrates in Plato's 'Phaedo'.
> • In the third couplet, is there a term that substantiates Dr. Lewis's,
> "scheme and semblance". Would any others take the idea here to be we're
> pretty absorbed in the externals and Divine Reality — Truth — and Love are
> to be experienced thru Dhikr or Salah — i.e., that contentment is 'an inside
> job' and comes from turning to God in quiet contemplation?
> • Dr. Gamard, I appreciated your translation of the first and ninth verses.
> Would you share your entire translation on the Board?
> • I enjoyed the suggestion that the first line of the ninth verse might
> relate to the 'Light verse' in the Qur'an! And, honestly — and I understand
> this is not an Islamic view — believe Maulana may be referring to inner
> light, Divine light, that is experienced as the soul departs from the body.
> The first verses of the Gospel, according to Saint John, it says: "4 In him
> was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in
> darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." My understanding is that
> consciousness, or spirit — soul — manifests as light.
> • Could 'if' in verse nine be translated as 'since'? I.e., "Since your heart
> is illumined, you will know the way Home; and since you possess the Lord's
> qualities [—as in Genesis, made in the image of God—] you will know I AM the
> Lord of your Home. "
> • I'd read somewhere that 'Khoda', etymologically means, 'He Himself comes'.
> Is that right? And somewhere online it says that the title, I guess you call
> it, Khodavandgar, used in Shams al din Mohammed Aflaki's, 'Feats...' means
> God-like one. Could someone break that down, please — like what does
> 'vandgar' mean?
> • I relished the point made by Iljas that the 'haqiqa' of a Murshid-i
> Kamil's utterances are not grasped by sheer intellect. Also, I suspect,
> 'you'd have to have been there' — i.e., that the presence of such a
> Personage infuses his outpourings with clarity impossible, perhaps, for us
> to grasp without personal experience of his spiritual state or, is it,
> station.
> • Please forgive any faux pas in my post as my background in Islam is truly
> nil.
> • I also found the 'pick up' by Iljas of the use of opposites wonderful.
> Doesn't Maulana say we ONLY know by opposites — that you can't convey a
> message writing (with black ink) on black paper. I made a list for myself
> incorporating that of Iljas — 1. illusion, reality; transient, eternal;
> death, life. 2. out, in; departure; return; (descent; ascent). 3. external,
> internal; worldly, other worldly; creation, Creator. 4. wet, dry; sea,
> desert; in our 'element', out of our 'element; ocean of non-existence;
> existent drop/(fish); Creator, creature. 5. captured, released; confined,
> freed; 'grounded', liberated. 6. cold, hot; damped, ignited; apathetic,
> enthralled. 7. impure, pure; derivative, original; ugly, beautiful. 8.
> caused, uncaused; disordered, orderly; spatial, beyond space.
> • Does anyone know the translator of a version that begins, "Didn't I tell
> you not to go to that place?" Oh, I Googled the line. It's Shahram Shiva's
> version. Please, any views on its accuracy? It does acknowledge the 'chief
> of the village' meaning of 'kadkhoda' that Behnaz kindly supplied from Dr.
> Kadkani's commentary.
> • Khamush! Thanks deeply for any replies to any of these points and
> questions. Gré
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/dar-al-masnavi/-/eJlcHWQDcBoJ.
SLING Designer Bags
Jul 9, 2012, 3:02:35 AM7/9/12
to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com
can u please fwd the link for the mp3
On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 1:19 AM, gré <gvd...@gmail.com> wrote:
• I was thrilled to find an mp3 of the ghazal. Has anyone a link to a transliteration? I hear 'Didn't I tell you' as 'Na guff ta mat'. Lovely, lovely reading. It's very 'stern' and the pounding of the 'I AM' — manam — is powerful.
Other questions:
• I find Abdulbaki Golpinarli's interpretation, presented by Dr. Gamard, fascinating and completely likely — that Maulana was simultaneously addressing his living disciples and his recently deceased disciple, Sultan Rokn al-din. Also, I find it a challenge to believe that a mystic of Maulana's stature would 'waste a word' and, what Dr. Gamard presented from F-912, seems not dissimilar to descriptions of death from other sources — e.g., the departure of Socrates in Plato's 'Phaedo'.
• In the third couplet, is there a term that substantiates Dr. Lewis's, "scheme and semblance". Would any others take the idea here to be we're pretty absorbed in the externals and Divine Reality — Truth — and Love are to be experienced thru Dhikr or Salah — i.e., that contentment is 'an inside job' and comes from turning to God in quiet contemplation?
• Dr. Gamard, I appreciated your translation of the first and ninth verses. Would you share your entire translation on the Board?
• I enjoyed the suggestion that the first line of the ninth verse might relate to the 'Light verse' in the Qur'an! And, honestly — and I understand this is not an Islamic view — believe Maulana may be referring to inner light, Divine light, that is experienced as the soul departs from the body. The first verses of the Gospel, according to Saint John, it says: "4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." My understanding is that consciousness, or spirit — soul — manifests as light.
• Could 'if' in verse nine be translated as 'since'? I.e., "Since your heart is illumined, you will know the way Home; and since you possess the Lord's qualities [—as in Genesis, made in the image of God—] you will know I AM the Lord of your Home. "
• I'd read somewhere that 'Khoda', etymologically means, 'He Himself comes'. Is that right? And somewhere online it says that the title, I guess you call it, Khodavandgar, used in Shams al din Mohammed Aflaki's, 'Feats...' means God-like one. Could someone break that down, please — like what does 'vandgar' mean?
• I relished the point made by Iljas that the 'haqiqa' of a Murshid-i Kamil's utterances are not grasped by sheer intellect. Also, I suspect, 'you'd have to have been there' — i.e., that the presence of such a Personage infuses his outpourings with clarity impossible, perhaps, for us to grasp without personal experience of his spiritual state or, is it, station.
• Please forgive any faux pas in my post as my background in Islam is truly nil.
• I also found the 'pick up' by Iljas of the use of opposites wonderful. Doesn't Maulana say we ONLY know by opposites — that you can't convey a message writing (with black ink) on black paper. I made a list for myself incorporating that of Iljas — 1. illusion, reality; transient, eternal; death, life. 2. out, in; departure; return; (descent; ascent). 3. external, internal; worldly, other worldly; creation, Creator. 4. wet, dry; sea, desert; in our 'element', out of our 'element; ocean of non-existence; existent drop/(fish); Creator, creature. 5. captured, released; confined, freed; 'grounded', liberated. 6. cold, hot; damped, ignited; apathetic, enthralled. 7. impure, pure; derivative, original; ugly, beautiful. 8. caused, uncaused; disordered, orderly; spatial, beyond space.
• Does anyone know the translator of a version that begins, "Didn't I tell you not to go to that place?" Oh, I Googled the line. It's Shahram Shiva's version. Please, any views on its accuracy? It does acknowledge the 'chief of the village' meaning of 'kadkhoda' that Behnaz kindly supplied from Dr. Kadkani's commentary.
• Khamush! Thanks deeply for any replies to any of these points and questions. Gré
On Monday, May 14, 2012 3:02:50 PM UTC-4, gré wrote:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/dar-al-masnavi/-/eJlcHWQDcBoJ.
To post to this group, send email to dar-al-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dar-al-masnav...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.
Regards
Ata Ashraf Vahedna
DISCLAIMER:
===============================================================
The preceding e-mail message (including any attachments) contains information that may be confidential, may be protected by the attorney- client or other applicable privileges or may constitute non-public information. It is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient of this message, please notify the sender by replying to this message and then delete all copies of it from your computer system. Any use,dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message by unintended recipients is not authorised and may be unlawfull
================================================================
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages