Re: AIM_USA - Psychology Of Caste

[Karthik Navayan]

Caste based reservations should continue until annihilation of caste system. It is the aggressive caste’s responsibility to annihilate the caste system. They do not have any moral or legal right to speak against reservations while enjoying the caste privileges, being upper caste within the Brahmanical paradigm.

Until the time the aggressive castes enjoy the caste privileges, the defensive castes should have every right for reservation

I have seen Dr Anand speaking for the demand of reservations in private sector. What is this change and why? I would like to read his full article.  Please post it here

 

Jaibheem

Karthik Navayan 

On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Kunda Kamble <kunda...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

Dear Friends,

I read this very interesting article written by Dr. Anand Teltumbde; in the Buddhistvoice E magazine October issue.
In this article Dr. Teltumbde has attempted to analyse the psychology of Caste system in India, he has attempted to explain how and why the System could not be abolished and how in the present century Dalit people are paying the psychological cost for being in the Scheduled Caste group of the Indian society.

In his article he illustrates how in ancient times the doctrine of Karma was used to explain away the lowly birth and associated wretchedness of the Untouchables. Then it becomes very intriguing to find him shifting the blame back on the Dalit people again in the present century; as was done for  many thousands of years by Indian society. In the later part of his article he holds Dalit people responsible for being stigmatised by rest of the society because they are the recipients of Reservation Policy.

I will try and dispel the above myth. There are numerous castes that are benefiting from this policy. I will short list here some of them; Mali(Gardeners),Sonar(Goldsmiths), Shimpi( tailors), Kasar(bangle makers), Teli(oil makers), Koshti( weavers), Sutar(carpenters), Sali, Tamboli and many more. I did my best to give English translation of some of the castes, I don't even know what the last two or many others did or do. My point is that all those above mentioned castes and many more do take advantage of the reservation policy when and where it matters and rest of the time these same people strut about calling themselves Marathas. Nay they might be on the forefront to attack a poor, illiterate Dalit family in some village. Will you please Dr. Teltumbde tell me why are they not stigmatised? Why do they not feel inferior? 

Dr. Teltumbde also wants us to relinquish the Reservation Policy. No I will not relinquish this policy. This right was wrestled for us by Dr. Babasaheb and if THEY want to remove this right from us then THEY will have to remove it in a Democratic way. THEY will have to win a 2/3 majority in the Parliament and then amend the Constitution.  That provision is there made by the Only One Architect of the Indian Constitution. 

Then somewhere in his article he accuses lower caste people of flaunting their lowliness! In UK on numerous occasions I have come across with people telling me without any prompting from my side, that they are Brahmins or  Kshatriyas. Why? 

The answer of Indian Caste system is in the minds of upper caste people. Even Indian Muslims and Indian Christians can not escape that reality or the snobbishness.

Regards,

Vasundhara Kamble

Sent from my iPad

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B.Karthik Navayan,

http://karthiknavayan.wordpress.com/

[Jagdish Khobragade]

 Dear friends,

I am totally agree with Kartik Sir, as I have also observed that Brahmins are still consider themselves superior

and they dont want reservations in the name of merit and efficiency. In the following mail I have pasted one article written by 

Prashant Mishra against reservation in promotion. Though some of his arguments are good and seems to be well manipulated facts which generally brahmins do. In that article I have not seen any single word regarding merits of Schedule Castes and their efficiency in the services after they enter into the field. There are plenty of examples where they are at top brass places and holding a good position because of their merit. 

So, the argument of merit doesn't suit against reservation. now coming to the point psychological factor is very much present in all sectors of society and till the annihilation of caste reservation should be there though it may have some pros n cons.

we cannot sacrifice the all for the cost of one there is still need of reservation till the abolition of castes because caste is the genesis of all roots. 

I think brahmins should first relinquish the caste hierarchy then come forward to say that no reservation. I am fed up with this hypo-critic arguments what is good for you may not be good for all. why cant they understand the feeling of depressed class.  

If you have free time please read this article...I dont know how correct facts he referred.

Regards,

Reservation in Promotion of Scheduled Caste/Scheduled

Tribe in Administrative Services

July 2, 2013 - - - 0 Comments

Author: Prashant Mishra, New Law College, Bharati Vidyapeeth Deemed University, Pune

India is developing into a prosperous industrialized nation yet it lacks proper governance. It has tremendous

amount of skilled and unskilled manpower, all kinds of raw materials, an appropriate legal system, a huge

market and is a heaven for consumers. Only the government should concentrate on the real basic issues and

not on the peripheral, or the abstract ones. The civil services are the backbone of proper governance and

should have the best and the most talented people.

British Prime Minister, Lloyd George on August 2, 1922 stated it very clearly in the House of Commons that

British civil servants were the very basis of the Empire in India and so he could not imagine any period, when

they could dispense with the guidance and assistance of a small nucleus of the British civil servants. He

said, “I do not care, what you build on it, if you take that Steel-frame out of the fabric, it will collapse. There is

only one institution, we will not cripple, there is one institution, and we will not deprive it of its functions or of

its privileges and that is that institution, which built up the British Raj – the British Civil Service in India .”

Thus, the crucial and important role of administrative Services, in managing different activities in various

spheres all over India is evident. Britisher’s designed the reservation Policy. They divided the Indian

population into different groups, based on caste, community, religion, etc. They fixed ‘quota’ in government

jobs for different communities of Indian Society, through the Acts of 1909, 1919 and1932 along with separate

representation in Legislative Councils, and Assemblies, the rulers bestowed special benefits and preferences

in education and Government jobs for different upcoming groups.

It was Justice Leslie C Miller, the then Chief Judge of Mysore Chief Court and Chairman, 1st Backward Class

Committee of Mysore, who for the first time officially introduced the Policy of Reservation in government jobs

in 1919 .

The employment in Government organization was, from the very beginning considered lucrative and

prestigious for all the educated Indians. At that time itself, one of the members of the Miller Committee, Mr.

Iyengar rejected most of the recommendations on the ground that any Reservation would harm efficiency of

administration by preventing persons with merit from joining the services. However, the British Government

gave preferential treatment to upcoming groups in government jobs, but they kept the ICS untouched from the

quota system till the last. They firmly and clearly said to the upcoming groups that they wouldn’t weaken

their Steel frame at any cost for anybody, as on it depended, the efficient governance of the country. They

told the upcoming groups in clear terms, “With its utmost desire to do so, the best for these classes, the

Government will be and is powerless to help them, unless they qualify themselves to the same extent as

others of their countrymen for duties of administration and public .

VIEWS OF THE FOREFATHERS OF THE CONSTITUTION

The men who drafted the Constitution realized importance of civil services in ensuring good governance to the

country and providing the safety of the nation.

Mr. Subharajan said during Constituent Assembly debates, “Without an efficient civil service, it would be

impossible for the Government to carry on and continuity to be kept. The importance of the Governmental

administration has been in fact that there is continuity and unless there is continuity, there is chaos .”

Mr. M.V. Kamath said, “With the independence of our country, the responsibilities of the services have

become onerous. It may make or mar the efficiency of the machinery of administration, machinery so vital for

the peace and progress of the country. A country without any efficient Government service cannot make

progress in spite of the earnestness of the people at the helm of affairs of the country. Whatever democratic

institutions exist, experience has shown that it is essential to protect public services as far as possible from

political and personal influence and to give it that position of stability and security, which is vital in its

successful working, as an impartial and efficient instrument, by which Government of whatever political

complexion may give effect to their policies .”

Vallabh Bhai Patel: “I need hardly emphasize, that an efficient, disciplined and contented (civil) service,

assured of its prospects as a result of diligent and honest work, is a “Sine qua non” of sound administration,

under a democratic regime, even more than under an authoritarian rule. The (civil) service must be above

party and we should ensure that political consideration, in either its recruitment or its discipline and control,

are reduced to the minimum, if not eliminated altogether .”

After Nehru’s midnight hour speech between 14th and 15th August 1947, Dr. Radhakrishnan warned the

nation, “Our opportunities are great, but let me warn you that when power outstrips ability, we will fall on evil

days. We should develop competence and ability, which would help us to utilize the opportunities, which are

now open to us. A free India will be judged by the way, in which it will serve the interests of the common man

in the matter of food, clothing, shelter and social services .”

During the Constituent Assembly Debates it was insisted that efficiency in administration is a necessity and

it should be an efficient impartial services, it was hoped, that after ten years, or so, there would be no need

for Reservation.

Mr. M.V.Kamath, on October 14, 1949, said, “Members and even friends outside may dispute the wisdom of

this course (Reservations for SC/ST)…. I only wish to express the hope that before ten years has expired

from the commencement of the Constitution…. there will be not merely no socially and educationally

backward classes left, but that all the classes will come up to a decent normal human level, and also that we

shall do away with this stigma of any caste being, scheduled, this was the creation of British regime, which

happily has passed away .” It was the view of many members who drafted the constitution that reservation

should be for a limited period only including Dr. Ambedkar. He said – On August, 1949, while defending SC

Reservation for ten years, “For the scheduled tribes, I am prepared to give far longer time, but all those, who

have spoken about the reservation to the SC or to the ST, have been so meticulous that the thing should end

by ten years .”

VIEWS OF JUDGES REGARDING RESERVATION

In N.M.Thomas case, Ray C.J. had observed that:

‘The Constitution makes a classification of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes in numerous provisions

and gives a mandate to the State to accord special or favored treatment to them. Article 46 contains a

Directive Principle of State policy – fundamental in the governance of the country enjoining the State to

promote with special care educational and economic interests of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled

Tribes and to protect them from any social injustice and exploitation. Article 335 enjoins that the claims of

the members of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes to the services and posts in the Union and the

States shall be taken into consideration. Article 338 provides for appointment by the President of a Special

Officer for the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes to investigate all matters relating to the safeguards

provided for them under the Constitution. Article 341 enables the President by public notification to specify

castes, races or tribes which shall be deemed to be Scheduled Castes in the States and the Union

Territories. Article 342 contains provision for similar notification in respect of Scheduled Tribes. Article 366

(24) and (25) defines Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. The classification by the impugned rule and

the orders is with a view to securing adequate representation to Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes in

the services of the State as otherwise they would stagnate in the lowest rung of the State services .

In the same case Fajal Ali J. also observed that:

‘In view of these provisions the members of the Scheduled castes and the scheduled tribes have been given a

special status in the Constitution and they constitute a class by themselves. That being the position it

follows that they do not fall within the purview of Article 16(2) of the Constitution, which prohibits

discrimination between the members of the same caste. If, therefore, the members of the scheduled castes

and the scheduled tribes are not castes, then it is open to the State to make reasonable classification in

order to advance or lift these classes so that they may be able to be properly represented in the services

under the State .

In Akhil Bharatiya Shoshit Karmachari Sangh case, Supreme Court held that:

‘The President notifies Scheduled Castes not with reference to any caste characteristics but their abysmal

backwardness, as is evident from the scheme of Part XVI. He appoints, under Article 338, a Special Officer

whose duty is to investigate into all matters relating to safeguards for the scheduled caste & scheduled

tribes. The Constitution provides not merely for adequate representation of scheduled caste & scheduled tribe

to services and posts under the Union and States, but also provides for reservation of seats for scheduled

caste & scheduled tribe in the Legislatures. The cursory study of the Articles relating to the status and

safeguards of scheduled caste & scheduled tribe puts it beyond doubt that the founding fathers have

assigned to them a special place and shown towards them special concern and charged the State with

special mandates to redeem these handicapped human sectors from their grossly retarded situation. Indeed,

they are not merely backward, but are the backward-most and cannot be equated with just any other caste in

the Hindu fold .

Justice Sahai in Indra Sawhney Case observed that:

“Backward used in Article 16(4)is wider than socially and educationally used in Article 15(4) and weaker

sections used in Article 46. Scheduled caste & Scheduled tribe are covered in either expression. However,

same cannot be said for others. Backward, cannot be defined as was, wisely, done by the Constitution

makers. It has to emerge as a result of interaction of social and economic forces. It cannot be static. Many of

those who were Sudras in 17th and 18th Centuries ceased to be so in 19th and 20th Century due to their

educational advancement and social acceptability. Members of various backward communities, both, in

South and North who were moving upwards even before 1950 compare no less in education, status,

economic advancement or political achievement with any other class in society .”

In Devdasan, Justice Subba Rao explained the meaning of equality of opportunity in Article 16 as follows:

“Article 14 lays down the general rule of equality. Article 16 is an instance of the application of the general

rule with special reference to opportunity of appointments under the State. It says that there shall be equality

of opportunity for all citizens in matters relating to employment or appointment to any office under the State.

If it stood alone all the backward communities would go to the wall in a society of uneven basic social

structure; the said rule of equality would remain only a utopian conception unless a practical content was

given to it. Its strict enforcement brings about the very situation it seeks to avoid. To make my point clear,

take the illustration of a horse race. Two horses are set down to run a race – one is a first class race horse

and the other the ordinary one. Both are made to run from the same starting point. Though theoretically they

are given equal opportunity to run the race, in practice the ordinary horse is not given an equal opportunity to

compete with the race horse. Indeed, that is denied to it. So a handicap may be given either in the nature of

extra weight or a start from a longer distance. By doing so, what would otherwise have been a farce of a

competition would be made a real one. The same difficulty had confronted the makers of the Constitution at

the time it was made. Centuries of calculate oppression and habitual submission reduced a considerable

section of our community to a life of serfdom. It would be well highly impossible to raise their standards if the

doctrine of equal opportunity was strictly enforced in their case. They would not have any chance if they were

made to enter the open field of competition without adventitious aids till such time when they could stand on

their own legs .

In Triloki Nath, the Supreme Court laid down that:

Clauses (1) and (2) of Article 16 guarantee equality of opportunity to all citizens in matters relating to

employment or appointment to any office under the State. But if the said clauses of the article are literally

enforced, instead of giving equality of opportunity to all citizens, it will lead to glaring inequalities. In a country

where there are different strata of society ranging from highly sophisticated to lowly backward, the concept of

equality will drive the latter to the wall. Their condition would become worse than what it is. So, in order to

give a real opportunity to them to compete with the better placed people, clauses (3) and (4) are introduced in

the article .

In Thomas case Justice Mathew declared that:

I agree that Article 16(4) is capable of being interpreted as an exception to Article 16(1) if the equality of

opportunity visualized in Article 16(1) is a sterile one, geared to the concept of numerical equality which

takes no account of the social, economic, educational background of the members of Scheduled Castes and

Scheduled Tribes. If equality of opportunity guaranteed under Article 16(1) means effective material equality,

then Article 16(4) is not an exception to Article 16(1). It is only an emphatic way of putting the extent to

which equality of opportunity could be carried viz., even up-to the point of making reservation .

In Akhil Bharatiya Shoshit Karmachari Sangh case, Justice Chinnappa Reddy expounded that:

“Article 16(4) is not in the nature of an exception to Article 16(1). It is a facet of Article 16(1) which fosters

and furthers the idea of equality of opportunity with special reference to an under privileged and deprived class

of citizens to when egalite de droit (formal or legal equality) is not egalite de fait (practical or factual equality).

It is illustrative of what the State must do to wipe out the distinction between egalite de droit and egalite de

fait. It recognizes that the right to equality of opportunity includes the right of the underprivileged to conditions

comparable to or compensatory of those enjoyed by the privileged. Equality of opportunity must be such as

to yield ‘Equality of Results’ and not that which simply enables people, socially and economically better

placed, to win against the less fortunate, even when the competition is itself otherwise equitable. John Rawls

in ‘A Theory of Justice’ demands the priority of equality in a distributive sense and the setting up of the Social

System “so that no one gains or losses from his arbitrary place in the distribution of natural assets or his own

initial position in society without giving or receiving compensatory advantages in return”. His basic principle of

social justice is: “All social primary goods-liberty and opportunity, income and wealth, and the bases of selfrespect-

are to be distributed equally unless an unequal distribution of any or all these goods is to the

advantage of the least favored”. One of the essential elements of his conception of social justice is what he

calls the principle of redress: “This is the principle that undeserved inequalities call for redress; and since

inequalities of birth and natural endowment are undeserved, these inequalities are somehow to be

compensated for”. Society must, therefore, treat more favorably those with fewer native assets and those

born into less favorable social positions. If the statement that ‘Equality of opportunity must yield Equality of

Results’ and if the fulfillment of Articles 16(1) in Article 16(4) ever needed a philosophical foundation it is

furnished by Rawls’ Theory of Justice and the Redress Principle .”

EFFECT AND RESULT OF RESERVATION

However, when many of the old visionary leaders vanished from the national politics, political climate at

provincial level changed. Many regional political parties emerged in the states, pursuing the sectional

interests of different groups of people.

Since then, every time before general elections, almost all political parties especially the regional ones

constantly advocate for some additional benefits to be given to one group or the other just to garner votes or

to create a permanent vote-bank. Reservation Policy has become an inseparable part of the political wisdom

of the day. No political party is confident enough to move even a step without the crutches of “Reservation

Policy”. Such a mindset has attacked the very foundation of the constitution and has harmed national

integration.

Not only Nehru, but Ambedkar, the undisputed leader of untouchables himself declared in a speech

sometime before his death that the provision of Reservation in service should not extend beyond 1960/61 .

Dr. Ambedkar later in life also believed that Policy of Reservation had “Encouraged backwardness,

inefficiency and lack of competitive merit among them barring a few stray cases .”

Time limit was given for reservation, yet it seems its forever and even Dr. Ambedkar towards the end of his life

was unhappy about reservation policy! Have it should be modified or discontinued? During his last

days,Dr.Ambedkar was a depressed-man saying, “I have not been able to fulfill my mission”. … “My own

people have deceived me. Whatever I have been able to do, is being enjoyed by the educated people and

they are the worst fools. I now want to divert my attention to the uneducated masses, but life seems short.

The second worry to my mind is that I wanted that somebody from the SC should come forward and take the

responsibilities from me. There, however, seems none to shoulder such a heavy responsibility. All are selfish

and quarrel amongst themselves on petty matters .”

Pt. Jawahar Lal Nehru’s view on Reservations in government Jobs:-

As the Prime Minister of India,Pt. Nehru had watched closely all these developments and expressed his

views in a letter sent to all the chief ministers of the states on June 27, 1961. Following is the extract of the

letter -

“Narrow, cynical, sectional calculations are what propel our politicians today. There was a time when

everything was judged by one Talisman alone: the interest of the nation as a whole.”

“I have referred above to efficiency and to our getting out of our traditional ruts. This necessitates our getting

out of the old habit of Reservations and particular privileges being given to this caste or that group. The recent

meeting, we held here, at which the Chief Ministers were present, to consider national integration, laid down

that the help should be givenon economic considerations and not on caste. It is true that we are tied up with

certain rules and conventions about helping Scheduled castes and tribes. They deserve help, but even so,

Idislike any kind of Reservation, particularly in service. I react strongly againstanything,which leads to

inefficiency and second rate standards. I want my country to be first class country in everything. The moment

we encourage the second rate, we are lost.”

“The only real way to help a backward group is to give opportunities for good education. That includes

technical education, which is becoming more and more important. Everything else isprovision of some kind of

crutches, which do not add to the strength or health of the body.”

“We have made recently two decisions: one is universal and free education, that is the base, and the second

is scholarships on a very wide scale at every grade of education to the bright boys and girls and this applies

not merely to literary education, but much more so to technical, scientific and medical training. I lay stress

on the bright and able boys and girls, because it is only they, who will raise our standards. I have no doubt

that there is a vast reservoir of potential and talent in this country, only thing we can give it an opportunity.”

“But if go in for Reservations on communal and caste basis, we swamp the bright and able people and remain

second rate or third rate. I am grieved to learn of how far this business of Reservation has gone on communal

considerations. It has annoyed me to learn that even promotions are sometimes based on communal or

caste considerations.”

“This way lays not only folly but disaster. Let us help the backward groups by all means, but never at the

cost of efficiency. How are we going to build our public sector or indeed any sector with second rate people?”

CRITICISM BY JUDICIARY ON RESERVATION

Judges have also commented on various aspects of Reservation Policy from time to time.

‘In Rangachari case’Justice Gajendra Gadkar has said that:

“It must not be forgotten that the efficiency in administration has such paramount importance, that it would be

unwise and impermissible to make any Reservation at the cost of efficiency of administration. That

undoubtedly is the affect of Article 335 .”

In ‘Akhil Bhartiya Soshit Karmachari SanghVs U.O.I’it was held that:

“Special protection under Article 16(4) is not in the nature of an exception. The principles of Art 46 are to be

kept in mind, viz. that it is extended to the weaker sections of people. However, the Reservations should not

be used to imperil administrative efficiency in the name of concessions to backwardness… Efficiency of

administration is bound to be adversely affected, if general candidates of high merit are excluded from

recruitment .

Supreme Court in ‘Periakarpan vs. Tamil Nadu’held that:

“All the same, the Government should not proceed on the basis that once a class is considered as a

backward class, it should continue to be backward class for all time to come. Such an approach would

defeat the very purpose of the reservation.” Therefore, “the list of castes, which are entitled to reservation,

must be kept constantly under review .”

In ‘Karmachari case’it was stated that:

“If freedom, justice and equal opportunity to unfold one’s own personality belong alike to Bhangi and Brahmin,

prince and pauper, if the Panproletariat is to feel the social transformation, Article 16(4) promises, the state

must apply equalizing techniques, which will enlarge their opportunities and thereby, progressively diminish

the need for props. The success of State action under Article 16(4) consists in the speed, with which result

oriented reservation withers away as no longer a need, not in the ever widening and everlasting operation of

an exception (Article 16(4)) as if it were a superficial right to continue backward all the time. To lend

immortality to the Reservation policy is to defeat its raison’detre. To castefy “Reservation”even beyond the

dismal groups of most backward people, euphemistically described as Scheduled caste and Scheduled tribe,

is to run a grave constitutional risk. Caste, ipso facto, is not class in a secular state .”

CONCLUSION

Now after a thorough discussion on reservation, its concept, its evolution its need and as well as its effect

what I found is that no matter how many classification have been made in the constitution regarding

upliftment and betterment of backward class, but what I see first is that the term Backward is no where

defined in the Constitution.

The constitution makers while drafting the constitution had acted in their wisdom and so they had left the

meaning undefined, to result from interaction of social and economic forces on its own, as time

passes.Concept backward is static in nature but the content is dynamic – I strongly feel that.

A society or class which is backward at a particular instance of time may not be so after few years and so it

was the hope of the old visionary leaders that this backwardness or inequality will also disappear from our

society and we will stand before the world as a single community As said by Dr. B.R.Ambedkar….. “We are Indians, firstly & lastly .

But alas! the vision and dream of the old visionaries has failed. The purpose of classification into scheduled

caste and scheduled tribe has not achievedits goal. As Vohra Committee has vividly described the nexus that

has developed between unscrupulous politicians, corrupt bureaucrats and criminals. The appointment of

tainted officers at crucial positions itself makes the intentions of the politicians clear. Corruption and casteism

has corroded the steel frame.There was a time, when IAS attracted the best talents of the nation.Today’s

youth find the work atmosphere suffocating, and have lost their interest in it. Today the efficiency of the

service as a whole is at a critical edge where it has lost the faith of people. Thus we can easily conclude that,

reservation should be phased out.

But does the issue end here only? By phasing out reservation can we achieve the objective of equality? Can

the dreams of our old visionary leaders come true?

The answer I have is in negative because then what will exist in the society will merely be a theory of equality

but it will not be practicable. That situation will lead in attaining a situation of rich getting richer and poor

getting poorer.

So to address this problem what we first need to think is:

Whether we can have legislation without classification? If not then what should be the basis of classification?

The answer to the question is that Indian society is so diverse in the nature that without classification

equality of opportunity cannot be secured, so what we should consider is – what should be the basis of

classification? The answer to it is that it should be based on the educational and economical background of

the person and not on the factors like caste , religion, and others.

In the end it can be said that Nehru’s dream of making “my country to be first class country in everything”

can be fulfilled only when “the bright and able people” are not “swamped”. The moment “we encourage the

second rate, we are lost.”

SUGGESTION

Promotions in the service should be strictly based on good performance. Administrative efficiency shouldn’t

be compromised at any cost. Classification is an essential element of equality of opportunity in our society

but it should be based on real grounds like economical and educational factor and not on peripheral factors.

There is still time for us to change the present system by introducing healthy competition:-

By strengthening the foundation of our education system at grass root level,

By starting the process of descheduling,

By providing maximum facilities at primary education,

By curbing corruption and preventing public money from flowing into the pockets of middlemen.

By introducing administrative reforms to cut down unproductive growth of personnel and government

expenditure.

Now the need of the time is to bring meritocracy in all the right places and then everything will work well.

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Jagdish Khobragade,

Assistant Professor, School of Law,

Dr.Harisingh Gour Central University, Sagar (MP)t

Contact No.09669980282

[Amol R]

Dear Vasundhara,

I have not yet read the article by Teltumbde and if he asks us to relinquish reservation, I don't get him.  If he is asking Dalits to relinquish reservation in jobs, education, et al, it is to be known that we never asked for it in the first place.

Teltumbde is asking us something to relinquish, which we never asked for.  Yes, whatever reservations we have presently, except the political representation, was never demanded by us.  Babasaheb sought for us political representation and it is the output of that political share that the govts across the country and the federal govt was compelled to give that share in the areas of non-political interests as cited above.  That was the power of political representation.

OBC reservations in jobs and other non-political areas was also the output of the Mandal Commission which was again the battle for political share for the OBCs.

Please share your thoughts, if any.

[Mr.Vinod Gaikwad]

IN INDIA, BRAHMINS ARE RULER. WHAT IS WAY OF FREEDOM? PLS GUIDE...

On 11/12/13, Karthik Navayan <nav...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Caste based reservations should continue until annihilation of caste
> system. It is the aggressive caste’s responsibility to annihilate the caste
> system. They do not have any moral or legal right to speak against
> reservations while enjoying the caste privileges, being upper caste within
> the Brahmanical paradigm.
>
>
> Until the time the aggressive castes enjoy the caste privileges, the
> defensive castes should have every right for reservation
>
>
> I have seen Dr Anand speaking for the demand of reservations in private
> sector. What is this change and why? I would like to read his full article.
> Please post it here
>
>
>
> Jaibheem
>
>
> Karthik Navayan
>
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Kunda Kamble
> <kunda...@hotmail.co.uk>wrote:
>
>> Dear Friends,
>>

>> I read this very interesting article written by Dr. *Anand Teltumbde; in
>> the Buddhistvoice E magazine October issue*.

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>

[Jadumanilion Mahanand]

Jai bhim,

Can anyone send this article written by Dr. Anand Teltumbde. 

--

[Milind Bhawar]

Dear All,

Jai Bhim!

One of our person reads some article..understands it as per his understanding and puts on discussion. The others without taking any pain to read the article in origin, just jumps on the conclusions of that person (as interpreted by him) and the blame game starts..is this the right thing to do?

Where in the article has Anand asked anyone to do away with the reservations? That was not the subject at all. In fact the article is excellent in a way that it tries to explain the persistence of castes till today..Anand in the article has explained how certain dalits from South who could not get the reservations have progressed a lot than those who have got the reservations.

Stigma due to reservations happens in dalits (untouchables) and is proved by the fact that Marathas want to become OBCs, OBCs want to become (or rather have become) STs (Mahadeo Kolis) for the sake of reservations BUT no OBC or ST does ever want to become SC (people occupied with menial jobs) for the purpose of reservation...

Milind

On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:46 PM, Karthik Navayan <nav...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Paps C]

this type of movement is very essential for all daliths

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Paps C <pap...@gmail.com> wrote:

good

[Shrawan Deore]

Dear friend,

Dr. Anand Teltumbde is one of the revolutionary thinkers in India. His contribution to progressive movements by giving new philosophical approach is really admirable. But do you know he is totally against of OBC's Mandal Movement? Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar firmly stated that 'without co-operation of OBC movement, we can't achieve the goal of annihilating the caste system. This point should be taken for discussion with Dr. teltumbde. Thanks

--
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===================================================
 
Imp Note:-Sender will legally responsible for there content & email.
Please visit for new updates.
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www.sanjeevkhudshah.blogspot.com
=====================================================

--
Prof. Shrawan Deore
"201 Sparsh Heights" Dream City Road,
Opp. to Fame Cinema, Dream city Road,
Nasik Road, Nasik-422011
Contact No- 9422788546 / 0253-2411014

[Milind Bhawar]

is reservations to OBCs in anyway related to annihilation of castes..now Marathas also wanna to be OBCs. Is this in anyway going to move ahead with annihilation of castes or rather strengthen castes..

Kolis who in fact are OBCs are enjoying the status of STs by producing false ST (Mahadeo Koli) caste certificates and getting reservations BUT no leader of OBCs is daring enough to say a word against these fake OBCs. Is this the way for eradication of castes as resorted by Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar..

Anyways the discussion that started with Anand's article is going it's routine way of diverting from the subject topic. This happens when our(?) people don't want to read the article in origin and engage themselves in fruitful discussion BUT want to jump to conclusions showing their intellectual bankruptcy..

It will be good if we stick to the discussion and do not divert the subject.

Milind

[sbm...@yahoo.com]

Do nt send me anymore email=dr medhi

>>> I read this very interesting article written by Dr. *Anand Teltumbde;
>>> in the Buddhistvoice E magazine October issue*.

[Amol R]

Mr. Bhanwar,

You might be correct about Intellectual bankruptcy within our community.  I myself think that I am one of those kinds and I yearn to overcome this.  I am glad that we do got intellectuals like you within our community.  It's an asset.

Mr. Bhanwar, I do understand that people might interpret information in they way they perceive it - we all do.  But do you really think that people should stop talking or discussing about things?

Forums, social media are an asset.  Platforms to express, talk, debate, discuss where ideas are churned day in and out are amazing concepts.  We are fortunate to take a breath in such atmosphere which is now open to us.

Mr. Bhanwar, I think it is okay to have differences in opinion but discussions should not stop.  That is the very purpose of the forums and social media.  Disagreements can be handled in a better way and references and excerpts of matters can be shared to make a point or counter any point.  

I think more and more perspectives, should be talked and discussed rather than having them stop just because they are different than what we thought. The more the perceptions, the more we can learn and churn.

We are learning and and should continue to.

On a different note, do anyone know of any paper written by Mr. Teltumbde citing the progress made by the Bahujans and their movement because of reservations?

-Amol Ragde

is reservations to OBCs in anyway related to annihilation of castes..now Marathas also wanna to be OBCs. Is this in anyway going to move ahead with annihilation of castes or rather strengthen castes..

Kolis who in fact are OBCs are enjoying the status of STs by producing false ST (Mahadeo Koli) caste certificates and getting reservations BUT no leader of OBCs is daring enough to say a word against these fake OBCs. Is this the way for eradication of castes as resorted by Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar..

Anyways the discussion that started with Anand's article is going it's routine way of diverting from the subject topic. This happens when our(?) people don't want to read the article in origin and engage themselves in fruitful discussion BUT want to jump to conclusions showing their intellectual bankruptcy..

It will be good if we stick to the discussion and do not divert the subject.

-Milind

[Shrawan Deore]

1)    गाडी खेचने वाले जानवर बहोत है। मगर किसिके भी आंखपर ‘अँखौटा’ (पाटा) नही बांधा जाता है। घोडा एकमात्र प्राणी है जो अपना दिमाग चलाके कुछ नया ढुंढने की कोशिश करता है। लेकीन उसका मालिक तो चाहता है के घोडा गुलाम बनके सिर्फ गाडी खिंचने का हि काम करे। महापुरूषों की वजहसे जातीसंस्था खतम होने की शुरूवात हो गयी है। अप्पर कास्ट से छुटकारा मिल रहा है। मगर अब मेरी जात के कुछ होशियार लोग चाहते है के अपनी जात के लोग अब मेरे कंट्रोल मे रहने चाहीए। इसलिए वो खुद को मालीक समजते हुए अपने ही लोगों के ऑंखों पर अँखौटा,पाटा (Blinder, blinker) बांधने की कोशिश करता है। वो अपने महापुरुषोंके विचारधारा से जुडे हुये किसि दुसरे जाती के सवाल पर भी बॅन लगा देता है।

2)    जिस विचारक के आर्टिकल पर हम चर्चा कर रहे है, वो मेरे अच्छे दोस्त है। डॉ. आनंद तेलतुंबडे जानते है के, भारत के सर्वहारा वर्ग Proletariat class-caste  ( SC, ST etc.) के ऑंखों पर विचार धाराओं की पट्टी (अँखौटा) बॉधने से जाती नये रुप मे पुनर्जीवित और संघटित हो रही है। पहले मालिक अप्पर कास्ट के थे, अब नये मालिक हमारे हि जात के है। इसलिए डॉ. तेलतुंबडे सर्वहारा वर्ग कि ऑंखों से किसीएक विचारधारा की ‘अँखौटा’ हटाकर उन्हे कुछ नया रास्ता दिखाने की कोशिश कर रहे है। उनके इसी नये रुख से मै प्रभावित होकर मैने उनके स्पिच ओपन प्रोग्रॅम मे धुले, नाशिक जिले मे आयोजित किए है।

3)    केवल ओबीसी रिझर्वेशन के बारे मे ही नही मगर सभी (SC, ST के) रिझर्वेन के बारे मे भारतीय लेफ्टीस्ट और सोशोलिस्ट थिंकर क्या सोचते है, ये सबको मालूम है। लेकीन SC, ST वोटबँक के दबाव मे जैसे कॉंग्रेस-भाजपा रिझर्वेन को मान्यता देते है वैसे ही लेफ्टीस्ट और सोशोलिस्ट (प्रॅक्टीकल) मान्यता देते है। उनमे डॉ. तेलतुंबडे एकमात्र थिंकर है जो उनकी सोच बदलने का काम कर रहे है और वो सक्सेस भी है। जब ओबीसी की वोटबँक बनेगी तो लेफ्टीस्ट और सोशोलिस्ट के साथ साथ नये मालिक लोग भी ओबीसी के बारे मे कुछ अच्छा सोचने लगेंगे। बहोत कम लोग विचारधारा से बदलते है। बहोत सारे लोग पुश करने से बदलते है।

4)    डा. तेलतुंबडे दोस्त होने के बावजुद उनसे ओबीसी विषय पर मतभेद है, वो चर्चा के जरीये सुलझाना चाहता था, मगर मेरे नये मालिक मेरे ऑंखों पर पाटा ‘अँखौटा’ बांधना चाहते है। अब आप ही कहे हम क्या करे ???