Re: Dalit Movement Association} Stop using Black Thread and Black Neck-less

[kavita nirmalawaman]

Revolutionary JaiBhim!

Its really good that the attention of d youth is attracted on such Black threads(so called Mangalsutra). 

Bauddha Sangharsh Samiti has practically solomanised their marriages without Mangalsutra some Bhante or Upasak has boycott our marriage ceremonies. But we win d battle.

Anyway but if still because pressure of the society those who wants to wear Mangalsutra please do wear at least Gold chain with Pimpleleaf or Ashokchkra. But so far as my opinion is concer & even as per Law wearing of Mangalsutra is not compulsory hence at least working women should not wear any kind of license. Even Dr. Babasahab talk about Garlland but not about the Mangalsutra.  And as rightly pointed out by Sunil that Blck threads r used as immediate identification of Untouchables but now we left Hindu religion & Now we r Buddhist hence we should left Hindu rituals & built up Buddhist Rituals/identification.

U might Remeber that I had given Homework for such Buddhist Culture which was not taken seriously.anyway.....

Be Buddhist!

Buddhist Dikho! Buddhist Likho! Buddhist Bano!

 

--
Regards
Adv.Kavita Nirmala Waman

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Sunil Borkar <sunilh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear All,

Namo Buddhay and Jai Bhim To All,

I hope everybody is doing great. Just wanted to share information  to you all of my friends, I have seen so many of our brothers and sisters are wearing the black thread in hand and in neck also some are wearing in there foots. . . .  Married Women from our community also wears Black Neck-less (so called as MangalSutra). On this black thread Dr. Babasaheb said that "In Maharashtra an Untouchable was required to wear a black thread either in his neck or on his wrist for the purpose of ready identification."

It has been seen only Women and people who belongs to Lower caste wears this black thread and not a Brahmins Men. Historians said when these Brahmins came to India long ago, they didn't bring there women and after that they started getting married with the women from India.

If you ask to your grandparents who attended the Diksha Ceremony they will let you know that Married Women who were present in the Diksha Ceremony they had thrown their Black Neck-less (so called as Mangal Sutra). If they (illiterate women-men) thrown this black thread and black neck-kless then why not we follow it.

So I request to my friends that we should avoid to use this Black-Thread and Black neck-less.

Dear friends, Lets start it from us instead of blaming to others.

Please correct me if, am wrong. . . . .

Bouddha Bano                      Bouddha Dikho                          Bouddha Likho

--
In Mission with you a small Sainik,
Sunil H. Borkar

Following is article is from Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar Writings and Speeches Vol. 12

MANU AND THE SHUDRAS

______________________________________________

[This is a 31 page hand written Ms. of Dr. Ambedkar. The chapter has no title. It is also left incomplete. The title is suggested—editor.]

______________________________________________________________

I

The reader is now aware that in the Scheme of Manu there were two principal social divisions : those outside the Chaturvarna and those inside the Chaturvarna. The reader also knows that the present day Untouchables are the counterpart of those outside the Chaturvarna and that those inside the Chaturvarna were contrasted with those outside. They were a composite body made up of four different classes, the Brahmins, the Kshatriyas, the Vaishyas and the Shudras. The Hindu social system is not only a system in which the idea of classes is more dominant than the idea of community but it is a system which is based on inequality between classes and therefore between individuals. To put it concretely, the classes i. e. the Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Shudras and Antyajas (Untouchables) are not horizontal, all on the same level. They are vertical i.e. one above the other. No Hindu will controvert this statement. Every Indian knows it. If there is any person who would have any doubt about it he can only be a foreigner. But any doubt which a foreigner might have will be dissolved if he is referred to the law of Manu who is the chief architect of the Hindu society and whose law has formed the foundations on which it is built. For his benefit I reproduce such texts from the Manu Smriti as go to prove that Hindu society is based on the principle of inequality.

 

II

 

It might be argued that the inequality prescribed by Manu in his Smriti is after all of historical importance. It is past history and cannot be supposed to have any bearing on the present conduct of the Hindu. I am sure nothing can be greater error than this. Manu is not a matter of the past. It is even more than a past of the present. It is a  'living past' and therefore as really present as any present can be.

That the inequality laid down by Manu was the law of the land under the pre-British days may not be known to many foreigners. Only a few instances will show that such was the case.

Under the rule of the Marathas and the Peshwas the Untouchables were not allowed within the gates of Poona city, the capital of the Peshwas between 3 p. m. and 9 a. m. because, before nine and after three, their bodies cast too long a shadow; and whenever their shadow fell upon a Brahmin it polluted him, so that he dare not taste food or water until he had bathed and washed the impurity away. So also no Untouchable was allowed to live in a walled town ; cattle and dogs could freely enter but not the Untouchables[f1] 

Under the rule of the Marathas and the Peshwas the Untouchables might not spit on the ground lest a Hindu should be polluted by touching it with his foot, but had to hang an earthen pot round his neck to hold his spittle. He was made to drag a thorny branch of a tree with him to brush out his footsteps and when a Brahman came by, had to lie at a distance on his face lest his shadow might fall on the Brahman[f2] 

In Maharashtra an Untouchable was required to wear a black thread either in his neck or on his wrist for the purpose of ready identification.

In Gujarat the Untouchables were compelled to wear a horn as their distinguishing mark[f3] .

In the Punjab a sweeper was required while walking through streets in towns to carry a broom in his hand or under his armpit as a mark of his being a scavenger[f4] .

In Bombay the Untouchables were not permitted to wear clean or untorn clothes. In fact the shopkeepers took the precaution to see that before cloth was sold to the Untouchable it was torn & soiled.

In Malabar the Untouchables were not allowed to build houses above one storey in height[f5]  and not allowed to cremate their dead[f6] .

In Malabar the Untouchables were not permitted to carry umbrellas, to wear shoes or golden ornaments, to milk cows or even to use the ordinary language of the country[f7] .

In South India Untouchables were expressly forbidden to cover the upper part of their body above the waist and in the case of women of the Untouchables they were compelled to go with the upper part of their bodies quite bare[f8] .

In the Bombay Presidency so high a caste as that of Sonars (gold- smiths) was forbidden to wear their Dhoties with folds[f9]  and prohibited to use Namaskar as the word of salutation#.

[HemantGmail]

Jay bhim !!!

Kaviat,

I have few queries,

1.      In read line you said Balck threads( mangalsutra) and in green its state that its identification of untouchables, I did not get it bez each and every hindu women use to wear Mangalsutra.. if I miss any point plz tell me

2.      In brown line word come “Garlland” I do not have any idea about this word, can you plz tell what is that and what Dr.Babasaheb talk about.

 

Thanks and Regards,

Hemant

<br

[Amit Rangari]

Sunil,

Good thoughts. There are few I know (including me) who have made sure
that their wives do not wear the 'mangalsutra', not even the 'white
mangal-sutta' as we felt it is replacement of black thread with white
thread, still indicating that the 'wife' is 'dasi' of husband.

There are social stigmas and dogmas and there are women (i know of
some) who _like_ to put on the 'mangalsutra'. i dont know how to
explain them.

also, it is easy for a man to say it for others... things has to start
from him. I hope folks on this forum at least do this. Of course, i
would like to confess that i could not get this thought accepted to my
parents which is difficult.

Regards,
amit Rangari

[Sumedh Ukey]

Dear All,             Jai Bheem!                      This is an important issue that should be addressed. The first question to be asked is -   Why a married woman need an identification i.e. Mangalsutra and a man not?   Many try to justify the need of a Mangalsutra by saying that it protects the woman from the teasing by men. Experience however does not prove this. I will answer this with below questions - Why do a piece of land has a plank "This proeprty belongs to Mr.ABC"? Why do a pet dog must have a belt around his neck?   If we know the answers to the above questions things are pretty clear. To tell the world that the woman wearing Mangalsutra is the property of some man which should not be tresspassed. All the rights of that woman are reserved with that man. You should not even talk to a married woman without the knowledge and permission of her husband. This only means that a Mangalsutra indicates that a woman is a slave. To establish equality and liberty of the woman the practice of wearing Mangalsutra should be done away with.   Replacing the form of the Mangalsutra is not enough because if a married man does not need a identification of being married why should a woman have?   Nari Tera bachpan pita ke adheen hai, Jawani Pati aur Budhapa bete ki seva mein leen hai, Kabhi to kar apni swantantrata ka aagaj Tu, Nari Apni Hasti pehchan Tu! Nari Apni Hasti pehchan Tu!   The women should bear in the mind that history has proved that no master has set his slaves free on its own. The slaves have to revolt against the masters to free themselves!!!   Women will have to revolt against men even if they come as fathers, brothers, uncles, friends, husbands, sons etal. Men will be Men!!!   Program to make radical changes will haveto be undertaken by the women to break their shackles of slavery!!!   Haldi Kunu, Buddha Vandana, Kitty parties, Sammelan, Symposiums , alone will not do much. Women will have to revolt against the system!!!   Change the mores, the practices and standards!!!! Regards, Sumedh --- On Wed, 17/12/08, HemantGmail <hema...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: HemantGmail <hema...@gmail.com> Subject: {Dalit Movement Association} Re: Dalit Movement Association} Stop using Black Thread and Black Neck-less To: dalit-movemen...@googlegroups.com Date: Wednesday, 17 December, 2008, 1:40 AM Jay bhim !!! Kaviat,

I have few queries, 1.      In read line you said Balck threads( mangalsutra) and in green its state that its identification of untouchables, I did not get it bez each and every hindu women use to wear Mangalsutra... if I miss any point plz tell me

2.      In brown line word come “Garlland” I do not have any idea about this word, can you plz tell what is that and what Dr.Babasaheb talk about.

Thanks and Regards, Hemant

From: dalit-movemen...@googlegroups.com [mailto:dalit-movemen...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kavita nirmalawaman Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 11:33 AM To: dalit-movemen...@googlegroups.com; Sunil Borkar; Buddhis...@yahoogroups.com; Apna...@yahoogroups.com Subject: {Dalit Movement Association} Re: Dalit Movement Association} Stop using Black Thread and Black Neck-less

Revolutionary JaiBhim! Its really good that the attention of d youth is attracted on such Black threads(so called Mangalsutra).  Bauddha Sangharsh Samiti has practically solomanised their marriages without Mangalsutra some Bhante or Upasak has boycott our marriage ceremonies. But we win d battle.

Anyway but if still because pressure of the society those who wants to wear Mangalsutra please do wear at least Gold chain with Pimpleleaf or Ashokchkra. But so far as my opinion is concer & even as per Law wearing of Mangalsutra is not compulsory hence at least working women should not wear any kind of license. Even Dr. Babasahab talk about Garlland but not about the Mangalsutra..  And as rightly pointed out by Sunil that Blck threads r used as immediate identification of Untouchables but now we left Hindu religion & Now we r Buddhist hence we should left Hindu rituals & built up Buddhist Rituals/identification.

U might Remeber that I had given Homework for such Buddhist Culture which was not taken seriously.anyway..... Be Buddhist! Buddhist Dikho! Buddhist Likho! Buddhist Bano!   -- Regards Adv.Kavita Nirmala Waman On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Sunil Borkar <sunilh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear All,

Namo Buddhay and Jai Bhim To All,

I hope everybody is doing great.. Just wanted to share information  to you all of my friends, I have seen so many of our brothers and sisters are wearing the black thread in hand and in neck also some are wearing in there foots. . . .  Married Women from our community also wears Black Neck-less (so called as MangalSutra).. On this black thread Dr. Babasaheb said that "In Maharashtra an Untouchable was required to wear a black thread either in his neck or on his wrist for the purpose of ready identification."

It has been seen only Women and people who belongs to Lower caste wears this black thread and not a Brahmins Men. Historians said when these Brahmins came to India long ago, they didn't bring there women and after that they started getting married with the women from India.

If you ask to your grandparents who attended the Diksha Ceremony they will let you know that Married Women who were present in the Diksha Ceremony they had thrown their Black Neck-less (so called as Mangal Sutra). If they (illiterate women-men) thrown this black thread and black neck-kless then why not we follow it.

So I request to my friends that we should avoid to use this Black-Thread and Black neck-less.

Dear friends, Lets start it from us instead of blaming to others.

Please correct me if, am wrong. . . . .

Bouddha Bano                      Bouddha Dikho                          Bouddha Likho

-- In Mission with you a small Sainik, Sunil H. Borkar

Following is article is from Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar Writings and Speeches Vol. 12

MANU AND THE SHUDRAS ______________________________________________

[This is a 31 page hand written Ms. of Dr. Ambedkar. The chapter has no title. It is also left incomplete. The title is suggested—editor.]

______________________________________________________________ I

The reader is now aware that in the Scheme of Manu there were two principal social divisions : those outside the Chaturvarna and those inside the Chaturvarna. The reader also knows that the present day Untouchables are the counterpart of those outside the Chaturvarna and that those inside the Chaturvarna were contrasted with those outside. They were a composite body made up of four different classes, the Brahmins, the Kshatriyas, the Vaishyas and the Shudras. The Hindu social system is not only a system in which the idea of classes is more dominant than the idea of community but it is a system which is based on inequality between classes and therefore between individuals. To put it concretely, the classes i. e. the Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Shudras and Antyajas (Untouchables) are not horizontal, all on the same level. They are vertical i.e. one above the other. No Hindu will controvert this statement. Every Indian knows it. If there is any person who would have any doubt about it he can only be a foreigner. But any doubt which a foreigner might have will be dissolved if he is referred to the law of Manu who is the chief architect of the Hindu society and whose law has formed the foundations on which it is built. For his benefit I reproduce such texts from the Manu Smriti as go to prove that Hindu society is based on the principle of inequality.

II

It might be argued that the inequality prescribed by Manu in his Smriti is after all of historical importance. It is past history and cannot be supposed to have any bearing on the present conduct of the Hindu. I am sure nothing can be greater error than this. Manu is not a matter of the past. It is even more than a past of the present. It is a  'living past' and therefore as really present as any present can be.

That the inequality laid down by Manu was the law of the land under the pre-British days may not be known to many foreigners. Only a few instances will show that such was the case.

Under the rule of the Marathas and the Peshwas the Untouchables were not allowed within the gates of Poona city, the capital of the Peshwas between 3 p. m. and 9 a. m. because, before nine and after three, their bodies cast too long a shadow; and whenever their shadow fell upon a Brahmin it polluted him, so that he dare not taste food or water until he had bathed and washed the impurity away. So also no Untouchable was allowed to live in a walled town ; cattle and dogs could freely enter but not the Untouchables[f1]

Under the rule of the Marathas and the Peshwas the Untouchables might not spit on the ground lest a Hindu should be polluted by touching it with his foot, but had to hang an earthen pot round his neck to hold his spittle. He was made to drag a thorny branch of a tree with him to brush out his footsteps and when a Brahman came by, had to lie at a distance on his face lest his shadow might fall on the Brahman[f2]

In Maharashtra an Untouchable was required to wear a black thread either in his neck or on his wrist for the purpose of ready identification.

In Gujarat the Untouchables were compelled to wear a horn as their distinguishing mark[f3] .

In the Punjab a sweeper was required while walking through streets in towns to carry a broom in his hand or under his armpit as a mark of his being a scavenger[f4] .

In Bombay the Untouchables were not permitted to wear clean or untorn clothes.. In fact the shopkeepers took the precaution to see that before cloth was sold to the Untouchable it was torn & soiled.

In Malabar the Untouchables were not allowed to build houses above one storey in height[f5]  and not allowed to cremate their dead[f6] .

In Malabar the Untouchables were not permitted to carry umbrellas, to wear shoes or golden ornaments, to milk cows or even to use the ordinary language of the country[f7] .

In South India Untouchables were expressly forbidden to cover the upper part of their body above the waist and in the case of women of the Untouchables they were compelled to go with the upper part of their bodies quite bare[f8] .

In the Bombay Presidency so high a caste as that of Sonars (gold- smiths) was forbidden to wear their Dhoties with folds[f9]  and prohibited to use Namaskar as the word of salutation#.

<br Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.

[kavita nirmalawaman]

Revolutionary JaiBhim!

Hemant,

As u know that there was a rule that shadow of d Untouchable should not even fall upon Savarna People etc. And in order to know or recognise such Untouchable man/woman even from far distance they gave these black threads or even our women are not allowed to wear gold ornaments instead of gold they have to wear Silver ornaments for identification.[Black thread  be wear by man in hand etc.] Mangalsutra though wear by all Hindus woman it is an indication of slavery.  {For this u can refer Mahatma/Rashtrapita Bodhisatwa Jyotiba Phule's "SAMAGRA WANGMAY"}.

And In Buddha & His Dhhamma (i don't remember Page No. now but i read it & find reference while deciding the rule of marriage without Mangalsutr) there is one incident of marriage where it was written that only garland was wear while solomanising marriage,no mangalsutra,ring etc. 

But if woman are wearing bcoz of their ignorance of knowledge etc. such marriage are not invalid. 

If still u have any quarry we will talk on this topic but not now.

Regards
Adv.Kavita Nirmala Waman

[PrÅshåÑt]

I'm happy to be part of the team - these discussions are satisfying and showing unity in thoughts -

I hope everyone of us continues to try think what Babasaheb wanted us to think, come together, discuss issues and "Work" together ...

"Jai"-"Bheem" !!!

---

From: kavita nirmalawaman <adv.ka...@gmail.com>
To: dalit-movemen...@googlegroups.com; HemantGmail <hema...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:22:44 PM

[Rajni Tilak]

Dear Kavita ji

 

Jaibheem. I agree with u. We are with u

 

Rajni

[kavita nirmala waman]

Revolutionary JaiBhim!

Its really good that today's woman like Rajni has shown her readyness to agree & act. Rajni please send your details like contact No.,place of recidence etc. & Let me know whether u r really interested to work on this issue? 

JaiBhim! JaiBauddharashtra!!
--
Regards
Adv. Kavita Nirmala Waman
 

[Anita Bharti]

Dear All,

 

Mangal sutra or any other sutra. Sindoor, Bichhua (ring worn on the finger of the feet) or any other 'sign' that a woman is married is the indication of deep rooted Patriarchy, within us and should be done away with.

 

If Buddhism has to become another form of ritualistic Hinduism, it will be shunned too by progressive women and men. The essense of Buddhism is not rituals, but scientific thinking and using one's 'vivek' to decide things, not dogmatic scriptures or repressive religious texts. This is the true thought of Dr. Ambedkar.

 

Anita Bharti.

2008/12/17 kavita nirmalawaman <adv.ka...@gmail.com>

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