Ability Drain/Damage in Pathfinder

[John.L...@flagstar.com]

Vlad,

Re: your question on Lamia Matriach:

"does anyone know what the wisdom drain refers to? "Unlike with other kinds of ability drain attacks, a lamia matriarch does not heal damage when she uses her Wisdom drain." I'm not aware of any rules like that... Can anyone point me to them? "

It appears that Pathfinder omitted the sentence formerly present in the Ability Drain description from the SRD. See the following:

[3.5 SRD] Ability Drain This effect permanently reduces a living opponent’s ability score when the creature hits with a melee attack. The creature’s descriptive text gives the ability and the amount drained. If an attack that causes ability drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the indicated amount (if the damage is expressed as a die range, roll two dice). Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) whenever it drains an ability score no matter how many points it drains. Temporary hit points gained in this fashion last for a maximum of 1 hour.

[PFRPG] Ability Drain (Ability Scores) "Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."

and...

[PFRPG] Ability Drain (Universal Monster Rules) "Ability Damage and Drain (Ex or Su) Some attacks or special abilities cause ability damage or drain, reducing the designated ability score by the listed amount. While ability damage can be healed naturally, ability drain is permanent and can only be restored through magic."

Also, I looked up other creatures that do some sort of ability drain and I did not find any that explicitly say that they gain hp when draining. Instead I found the Vampire gains hit points when it causes Ability Damage when draining a victims blood. The 3.5 SRD did not indicate that a creature gained any HP when dealing Ability Damage, only when dealing Ability DRAIN.  Note the following:

[3.5 SRD- Vampire] Blood Drain (Ex) A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

[PFRPG-Vampire] Blood Drain (Su): A vampire can suck blood from a grappled opponent; if the vampire establishes or maintains a pin, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage. The vampire heals 5 hit points or gains 5 temporary hit points for 1 hour (up to a maximum number of temporary hit points equal to its full normal hit points) each round it drains blood.

So, the PF Vampire deals Ability DAMAGE (Supernatural) whereas the 3.5 Vampire dealt Ability DRAIN (Extraordinary). In both cases the Vampire heals HP when successful, yet one is Drain (which would seem to make sense, it is "draining" life into itself) and the other is Damage.

If you look up Ability Damage and Drain in the PRD Glossary (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#ability-score-damage-penalty-and-drain) no where does it mention the creature or source of the damage or drain healing as a result.

If you look up Ability Damage and Drain in the PRD Universal Monster Rules (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/universalMonsterRules.html#ability-damage-and-drain) it doesn't mention the source of the damage/drain healing either.

Monsters that deal Ability Damage or Drain

• Gibbering Mouther ("blood drain", Con DAMAGE no healing)
• Vampire (blood drain, Con DAMAGE, heals vampire)
• Leech ("blood drain", Str and Con DAMAGE, no healing mentioned)
• Linnorm ("poison", Con DRAIN, no healing)
• Lamia ("wisdom drain", no healing)
• Wraith ("constitution drain", Con DRAIN, heals wraith)
• Night Hag ("dream haunting", Con DRAIN, no healing)
• Stirge ("blood drain". Con DAMAGE, no healing)
• Succubus ("profane gift" Cha DRAIN, no healing)
• Vargouille ("kiss", Int and Cha DRAIN, no healing)

So, out of the monsters in the PRD, only two listed gain any healing as a result of either Ability Damage, or Ability Drain, and its one of both. The Vampire heals when it uses its blood drain ability but it causes ability DAMAGE vs, Drain in previous editions. The Wraith heals when it uses its Constitution Drain ability, and that ability causes Con DRAIN (appropriately enough.)

So, it would seem that once again, this is a mess of inconsistency and change for change sake. I don't get the logic here.

John Reyst Systems Analyst 4 IT Services - Infrastructure Office: (248) 312-6118 Cell: (248) 635-9432 IM: jreys...@yahoo.com John.L...@flagstar.com www.flagstar.com

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[Vlad Presnyak]

Err, I'm gonna make a note on the lamia matriarch (because I remember that exact phrasing from the 3.5 harridan that I converted for AP #6 at some point) that it's a carry over.

Meh!

Vlad

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[John.L...@flagstar.com]

I noticed that the new creature "winterwight" from b2 has this ability:

Blightfire (Su) Whenever a winterwight damages a creature with a bite or claw, the wound erupts with tongues of black fire. For the next 5 rounds, the victim must make a DC 29 Fortitude saving throw at the start of its turn or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. The winterwight gains 10 temporary hit points each time the creature fails a saving throw against blightfire. A creature cannot be affected by more than one instance of blightfire at a time. The save DC is Charisma-based.

So the effect of gaining HP upon a successful drain is on a case-by-case basis, as in, some creatures DO gain hp on drain while others don't.

[John.L...@flagstar.com]

And... vampiric mist has:

Blood Siphon (Ex) A vampiric mist drains blood with each melee touch attack dealing 1d3 points of Constitution damage. Every time a vampiric mist damages a creature in this way, it heals 1d8 hit points. Hit points healed in excess of its maximum are gained as temporary hit points, to a maximum amount equal to its Constitution score. These temporary hit points last for 1 hour.

So now we have another example of something that drains blood but the ability is not called "blood drain" that deals ability DAMAGE and heals the monster. The previous example was the winterwight which dealt Con DRAIN and healed the monster.

Why they can't just create a new Universal Monster Ability called "Blood Drain" and then make the rule consistent escapes me.

[John.L...@flagstar.com]

Another oddity with the vampiric mist:

It has the following ability:

Blood Overdose (Su)

When a vampiric mist gorges on blood to an extent that it gains temporary hit points, it moves much more quickly. It gains a +2 haste bonus to its Armor Class and on Reflex saves, and can take one additional move action each round.

but there is no such thing as a "haste bonus" in Pathfinder. The haste spell itself grants a +1 DODGE bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Sigh.

[Vlad Presnyak]

That was in the errata notes, but I tossed it as a triviality. I can add a note if you like.

You know SKR is just going to say that you can name bonuses whatever you want as long as you follow the like bonuses do not stack, so I didn't want to deal with it.

Vlad

[John.L...@flagstar.com]

"GM's are not robots"

"GM's are smart"

"They'll figure it out."

"Why do you insist on being so literal? It's obvious what was meant."

Yes, I know. lol  I would add a note though that it should probably be a DODGE bonus.

[Vlad Presnyak]

done

Vlad