FW: The Plain

[Alison Hill]

Dear all.   The county council has a Vision Zero Cycle Safety Group. This group has been meeting monthly since June and our next meeting is on Monday. We are discussing the changes to the Plain. What is your experience of cycling with the new layout? Is it better, worse or the same? Or is it good in parts? Do send in your comments to Robin Tucker and me as below.

 

Best wishes Alison

 

Dr Alison Hill

Chair of Cyclox, the voice of cycling in Oxford

 

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From: Robin Tucker <O...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org>
Date: Saturday, 21 January 2023 at 12:05
To: Oxfordshire Network <oxfordshi...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Alison Hill <ch...@cyclox.org>
Subject: The Plain

 

On Monday, we've got a Cycling Safety meeting including a discussion of the=  recent changes to The Plain in Oxford.

 

If you've got views on these, email me and Alison, by 12:00 Monday, and we'= ll take them into the meeting.

 

Best wishes and happy cycling,

Robin

 

 

Robin Tucker

Chair, Oxfordshire Cycling Network

O...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org

Twitter: @OxonCyclingNet

07901 622622

 

 

[Paul Troop]

Hi Allison

Is there a layout of the new arrangement that you could share please. My family were there this morning and were terrified by the junction.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Best regards, Paul

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[Paul Troop]

Dear Allison, Graham, Robin, and all

 

Thanks all for the helpful information. I have not been to the Plain for some time, but my wife and son were there today. She was terrified of the junction and said there is no way he would be allowed to cycle there (he is 11).

 

Looking at the current arrangement, it is a complete dog’s dinner. I’m not sure what could be done in the interim - it really needs a complete redesign.

 

One idea would be to turn it into a Dutch roundabout of sorts. We’ve suggested the following (attached) for the Bicester Village planning application. This uses circulatory paths for pedestrians and cyclists and parallel crossings. Parallel crossings are cheaper and more responsive than any other crossing. The main problem is that you generally cannot have a parallel crossing over two lanes of traffic travelling in the same direction as there is a risk that one lane will obscure walkers or cyclists making the crossing. One solution is to introduce a median island in such circumstances, though this takes up an additional 3m. Note that this is not a fully Dutch roundabout as cyclists do not have complete right of way as they do with a V31 CROW style design (as with the Cambridge junction), it is closer to the V32 CROW style design, which is incidentally a lot safer.

 

I’ve had a look at the topography of the Plain, and I think you could just about squeeze a similar design around it, albeit with some compromises. The entry / exit from St Clements Street is particularly tight for cyclists, and the dual vehicle lanes from Magdalene Bridge are problematic if two lanes are to be preserved. However, I struggle to see how this would be justified, particularly if the plan is to discourage motor vehicles from cutting through the town centre. Reducing this approach to a single entry lane would make it much easier to implement. Likewise, the use of dual vehicle lanes on parts of the circulatory carriageway seems excessive and a single lane would seem ample.

 

I don’t have time to mock up a design, but I hope the attachment conveys the general idea.

 

Best regards, Paul

 

 

 

From: O...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org <O...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org>
Date: Saturday, 21 January 2023 at 19:01
To: 'Paul Troop' <paul....@gmail.com>, 'Cyclox Forum' <cyclox...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [cyclox-forum] FW: The Plain

There are also some pictures in the January edition of the Round Table:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qm-oiqYY6QhKeVyBuxaLhS-NyIPH-JEwYcGlyLyeCFE/

 

I don’t know if there are differences. I’ve ridden it a few times. I’ve not noticed a safety problem from St Clements, apart from the massive traffic queue.  But that could possibly be tackled as per Cowley Rd

 

Robin

[baldy-...@urchin.earth.li]

Hi Paul,

 

I recall going to a presentation in 2014 when the council last did a revamp of The Plain. The council said they did look at other options, but found the constraints of the site limited what they could do. That may be they weren’t ambitious enough, but it may temper any suggested improvements.

The roundabout itself is on a site of a former churchyard, so narrowing the size of the island was rejected. You then have buildings on several sides which prevent widening to add a cycle lane etc.

The work in 2015 aimed to narrow the carriageway around the roundabout as much as possible, to try and avoid motor vehicles being side by side with cyclists and then turning into them. The limit on how narrow the lane can be was defined by being able to get a bus around the roundabout. Interestingly the most recent tweak reinstated two lanes next to the St Clements exit. I assume this was to encourage drivers going into Cowley Road to keep left and not be side-by-side with a cyclist going round. Though as each of those lanes are too tight for a bus to fit in, I’m not sure they’ve had much effect.

I’m not convinced that the two lanes coming from Magdalen Bridge are a huge issue. There is inherently going to be a conflict between cyclists in the cycle lane turning right on the roundabout and motor vehicles turning left down St Clements. The current layout gives the cyclists priority as vehicles have to cross their lane to get to the correct lane for St Clements. When it’s just side by side on the roundabout with no markings it’s less clear who has right of way.

Fundamentally the issue with The Plain is that there is too much traffic for a roundabout. The priority should be getting the bus filters on St Clements and St Cross Road implemented and seeing what the state is then. I believe the recommendation for a junction with as much throughput as The Plain has now would be to make it traffic-light controlled. That would potentially lessen the conflicts between those on the roundabout and those joining.

Thanks.

 

--

James

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cyclox-forum/LO6P123MB6659B0956F307E78333EB169A4CA9%40LO6P123MB6659.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

[james.dawton]

The e mail below is much as I remember it (you saved me a lot of typing!).

Graveyard on the roundabout. If they wish to encroach on the grave yard, they need to contact decendants of the deceased, doable but not easy I suspect.

2 lanes off Magdalen Bridge. In 2015 we pushed for1 lane, we were over ruled by concerns over capacity/delays thus caused to bus time tables (the bus companies pushed against this).

The current 2 lnes works quite well. An unexpected benefit of this is that as St Clemens bound drivers have to cross a lane to turn left, they now indicate their intention (never happened previously as they were "just following the road"). In general drivers are quite careful making this manouver. The right turn cycle lane was taken out by the safety officer part way through the degign process, I made enough of a rumpus to get it put back in.

I find the new 2 new lanes on the roundabout for Iffley/Cowley make getting into the Iffley Lane a bit more problematic (but not badly so) compared to the previous layout.. Previously as there was 1 lane round the roundabout, you had from Magdalen Bridge entry to St Clements(ish) to get your self more out to the right/middle to head for Iffley. Now I want to try to do it immediately after the give way line.

I would say the Cowley/Iffley part of the junction is notably improved (possibly only for as long as all the buff surface remains clean/visible. I have not seen a Cowley > Iffley left turn since the new arrangement went in. Conversely, I have noticed more traffic to give way to when entering from Magdalen Bridge. More LTN related than Plain rehash I suspect.

Although the Plain might look bad, I used to do cycle training. My trainee mentioned about the Plain with more or less horror. So we went and stood outside Sainburys (middlish of the day, not overly busy), We watched, I told her to watch cycles approaching from Magdalen Bridge, pointed out when they drifted right for Cowley/Iffley. It then looked much better to her, and yes, we then rode sound the roundabout!

The St Clements entry is still poor, it is a very tight turn when it meets the roundabout.

I agree you can't do massive things with the Plain at the moment without snarling up the motor traffic. The only long term solution is motor traffic volume reduction.

Cheers,

James

140 Poplar Grove

Kennington,

Oxford,

OX1 5QP

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cyclox-forum/008701d92e51%245163bd60%24f42b3820%24%40urchin.earth.li.

[Graham Smith]

Robin, colleagues. 

There’ve been a few mentions of the St Clements entry being tight.  I agree but I probably want the graveyard to remain(!). 

Following the Milestone engineer’s initial presentation to the Cycling Safety meeting, of the problems at The Plain without any ideas of solutions, I offered to meet with them on site and we did so. 

It seemed to me that there was a general acceptance from the three engineers that the cycle lane approach on St Clements was a real mess from at least the main inbound bus stop, right up to the roundabout, different colours different with different treatments. 

These zigzags effectively ignore cycling until, at the entry to the roundabout, there is a cycle lane marking, widely ignored. 

I suggested that an effort to really emphasise the presence of the cycle lane should be  should be seen as part of the roundabout design itself. It seemed obvious to me that the cycle lane should be made more visible by using coloured material. 

>>> coloured material<<<  continuous visibility is a key (in the absence of useful guidance in LTN1/20 and MfS). 

When Milestones’ design proposals appeared, there was no treatment for Saint Clements. In fact the area of concern was clearly shown as a cut-off line so no attention whatsoever was paid to the St Clements approach.  

Continuity, consistency, clarity. 

Our Highways’ teams (specifically including Road Safety,  Highways Maintenance) including Highway Designers. find it so very, very difficult to consider cycling as transport - let alone holding a high placing in the hierarchy of road users. 

Graham 

Sent from my iPhone

Graham Paul Smith, Urban Design

5 Western Road

Oxford, OX1 4LF

MB 07796 263836

01865 725193

gpsmith.u...@gmail.com

On 22 Jan 2023, at 16:40, 'james.dawton' via Oxfordshire Cycling Network <oxfordshi...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Paul Troop]

Hello all, and thanks in particular to James for his comments. I’ve done a very quick sketch showing that if the dualling for cars is removed, there is ample space for a safe, off-carriageway, segregated cycle and pedestrian paths, and even for horizontal separation / buffering. None of the existing monuments need to be moved either.

 

The attached is riddled with errors, but I hope it gives you an idea of what might be possible. Lime is cycle, grey is pedestrian, orange is shared, green is vegetation.

 

Best regards, Paul

 

 

From: cyclox-infras...@googlegroups.com <cyclox-infras...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Graham Smith <gpsmith.u...@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, 22 January 2023 at 18:00
To: james.dawton <james....@btinternet.com>, Alison (oxford) <ch...@cyclox.org>, OCN <O...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org>
Cc: cyclox...@googlegroups.com <cyclox...@googlegroups.com>, Oxfordshire Cycling Network <oxfordshi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Oxfordshire Cycling Network] RE: [cyclox-forum] FW: The Plain

Robin, colleagues. 

 

There’ve been a few mentions of the St Clements entry being tight.  I agree but I probably want the graveyard to remain(!). 

 

Following the Milestone engineer’s initial presentation to the Cycling Safety meeting, of the problems at The Plain without any ideas of solutions, I offered to meet with them on site and we did so. 

 

It seemed to me that there was a general acceptance from the three engineers that the cycle lane approach on St Clements was a real mess from at least the main inbound bus stop, right up to the roundabout, different colours different with different treatments. 

 

These zigzags effectively ignore cycling until, at the entry to the roundabout, there is a cycle lane marking, widely ignored. 

 

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[Graham Smith]

Paul,

My immediate ‘from-the-hip’ reaction was that I doubt I’d want to use the provisions - were I still to be riding through the roundabout, back and forth to Brookes. But I can see that with youngish kids I’d be happier. I looked back for Richard’s version of a Dutch Rdbt I’ll find this snd send it. I found found this report from him:- From Richard Mann, October 2013 …

“Simon Hunt and I met Craig Rossington and Paul Gannon (who is project manager seconded from Atkins). [not one we know]. 

 

Essentially, they've got the team together, are thinking about timescales (which are very tight - they basically want to have got to single option development by November, then do modelling, consultation on loading changes, site investigation, detailed 3D design, and start building next August).

 

They have started sketching out some options for the space. The sketches they had done seemed mostly to be concept drawings of markings, but generally on the basis of having a larger island (ie make the existing oval more round), tight entries and open exits, and a slightly wider circulating carriageway (6m) than they were previously talking about. Stagecoach are apparently talking about 15m coaches (I said that if that affected the design, that's something we might need/want to make a fuss about).

 

My sketch of a Dutch layout was "on the table", but they're reluctant to try anything too radical given the timescales. They can't really work up a detailed design for a Dutch-style scheme unless there's broad consensus that that's the one to go for, and a high degree of confidence that it can be made to flow reasonably at current traffic volumes. It's also clearly rather tight in a few places. More radical options that involve cutting into the island are a virtual no-no, because it probably adds 6 months to the timescale (because of digging up graves).

 

I think the main point that we got across was that cyclists need to feel able to enter the roundabout more slowly, and that the roundabout is too big for open exits - traffic needs to be slowed on exit as well, if speeds are to be kept down. I suggested imposing a 10mph speed limit, possibly even in advance of any works.

 

They are worried that too much tightening might make entry too slow, and reduce capacity. This is particularly a problem in the morning peak, where there's a risk that traffic coming out of St Clements takes all the capacity and everything backs up on Cowley and Iffley roads. A pedestrian crossing at the mouth of St Clements might help break the flow up. An overrun strip on the edge of the island might help slow cars down without reducing buses to a crawl.

 

Coming out of town, they haven't yet started looking at whether the single lane entry (plus a tight entry) might cause capacity problems. We talked about giving priority to entering traffic. This might be risky, because some people might hesitate to take their priority. Probably better to make it possible to give way and enter/circulate more slowly. Tightening the exit to St Clements might be an alternative way of getting speeds down.”

 

Richard

Sent from my iPhone

Graham Paul Smith, Urban Design

5 Western Road

Oxford, OX1 4LF

MB 07796 263836

01865 725193

gpsmith.u...@gmail.com

On 22 Jan 2023, at 19:56, Paul Troop <paul....@gmail.com> wrote:



Hello all, and thanks in particular to James for his comments. I’ve done a very quick sketch showing that if the dualling for cars is removed, there is ample space for a safe, off-carriageway, segregated cycle and pedestrian paths, and even for horizontal separation / buffering. None of the existing monuments need to be moved either.

 

The attached is riddled with errors, but I hope it gives you an idea of what might be possible. Lime is cycle, grey is pedestrian, orange is shared, green is vegetation.

 

Best regards, Paul

 

<image001.jpg>

 

From: cyclox-infras...@googlegroups.com <cyclox-infras...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Graham Smith <gpsmith.u...@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, 22 January 2023 at 18:00
To: james.dawton <james....@btinternet.com>, Alison (oxford) <ch...@cyclox.org>, OCN <O...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org>
Cc: cyclox...@googlegroups.com <cyclox...@googlegroups.com>, Oxfordshire Cycling Network <oxfordshi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Oxfordshire Cycling Network] RE: [cyclox-forum] FW: The Plain

Robin, colleagues. 

 

There’ve been a few mentions of the St Clements entry being tight.  I agree but I probably want the graveyard to remain(!). 

 

Following the Milestone engineer’s initial presentation to the Cycling Safety meeting, of the problems at The Plain without any ideas of solutions, I offered to meet with them on site and we did so. 

 

It seemed to me that there was a general acceptance from the three engineers that the cycle lane approach on St Clements was a real mess from at least the main inbound bus stop, right up to the roundabout, different colours different with different treatments. 

 

These zigzags effectively ignore cycling until, at the entry to the roundabout, there is a cycle lane marking, widely ignored. 

 

<image0.jpeg>

[Richard Mann]

What would probably fit is a smaller 'Dutch' roundabout in the mouth of Iffley Road. But you'd need to have quite a lot less traffic for it to flow ok.

It would also cost maybe ten million just for one junction. Might be some competing priorities for that level of funding.

The risk with the new layout is that a driver entering from Cowley Road may miss seeing a circulating cyclist because they are looking for circulating cars a bit further away (they literally look through you). So my question would be whether speeds are low, particularly exiting to Iffley Road / Cowley Place.

Richard 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cyclox-forum/63201555-11A6-4F9E-AA40-8327DAA4FDFC%40gmail.com.

[Graham Smith]

Paul,

Richard could have sent this(!) but here is his mock-up, 8th June 2013.

I also add Patrick Lingwood's analysis.

Graham

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cyclox-forum/CAMLmWVusBDMNrS2s27_zHjSGrpXVsWJ%2BWp%3DoF%2B6MwJV8eR4sTA%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Graham Paul Smith, Urban Design

5 Western Road,

Grandpont,

Oxford, OX1 4LF

0779 626 3836

01865 725193

[Graham Smith]

Peter,

Thanks. 

Thought-provoking. 

I like the idea of building on Richard’s effort. 

What do you think of bus capacity?

The County/Milestone do not (seem to) have cycling as a priority at all. 

Graham 

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 00:55, Peter Whitfield <peterwh...@outlook.com> wrote:

Dear all,

 

Thank you for all your great comments – just wanted to join in and add some points from my experience going through the Plain daily and thinking about removing this major barrier to cycling at all ages in Oxford. I have put recommendations in bold

 

First some points about the current redesign of the Plain:

• The bollards on Cowley and Iffley road are definitely an improvement, but they are placed marginally too close to the pavement. They should have been placed on the white lines of the previous bike lane, which would have allowed cyclists to ride next to each other coming up to the Plain. Since cautious cyclists tend to wait longer for entering the Plain than some faster cyclists, I have observed various dangerous situations in which cyclists have gone outside of the bollards and re-joined the car lane to overtake hesitant cyclists waiting for no car to be in view (which can be quite some time especially in rush hour). So while the bollards do improve safety they should provide enough space so as not make the situation coming up to the Plain stressful (nobody should feel they have to enter the junction as there is a traffic jam of bikes behind them). If possible move them to the right when they break or need replacement.
• The cycle pictograms definitely are an improvement. More colour to highlight the priority of bikes coming from Magdalen bridge and going straight on would be great.
• I believe the two lanes going to Cowley and Iffley roads are helpful for making it easier when cycling to Cowley or Iffley roads as whoever is waiting on Cowley road can more easily tell whether people are sticking to the roundabout or exiting. However, I believe they do make exiting St Clement’s harder as you will usually always have a car behind/next to you and need to move over to the other lane. This adds to the points made below about St Clements approach not being adequately highlighted.
• The car parking needs to go as it is not in accordance with visionzero and really obscures good view of the junctions and pedestrian crossings. Great to see in the document shared below that this is under discussion.

 

Long-term, I believe we need a redesign that makes the Plain a proper Dutch roundabout. However, this needs to be done in such a way that is properly attractive for cycling for everyone. Thinking in particular of children and other vulnerable cyclists who are put off cycling by the plain, it is key to have separate infrastructure in junctions exactly as you put forward Paul. However, I have to fully agree with Graham that I would also not use the provision that you sketched. If we do go for a Dutch-style roundabout it cannot be incorporating 90° turns and making cyclists behave like pedestrians at crossings as this will slow down traffic and divide cyclists into those who use the provision and those who do not – not really solving the issue and potentially creating more headaches for cycling around the Plain. So, if Cyclox were to advocate a Dutch roundabout (as I strongly suggest we should!) then ONLY if it is done properly. This means:

• Roughly following the sketch from Richard which has all the basics of a Dutch roundabout:
• cars negotiating bike lane and roundabout separately which means space for a standard car to pass the cycle ring and wait to enter the roundabout when it is free (not key on St Clements if bus gate gets implemented as would allow for smoother cycle ring)
• outer ring for pedestrians (green), middle ring for bikes (orange) and inner ring for cars – following road user hierarchy in priority: by separating properly, bikes can always stop for pedestrians as they will not have cars behind them making it safer to do so – you only have to stop when entering or exiting the ring, not when you are on a surface shared with cars.
• it has to be unidirectional and not have any right angles to prevent conflicts and allow for good vision of other traffic (especially the parts North of St Clements and north of Cowley would worry me in your sketch, Paul as these mean full stops which would mean new conflict points and make me use the road)
• clear strong colour (preferably red or other warning colour) for the entirety of the cycle lane around the roundabout) – see Cambridge
• bikes always having priority over cars (made clear through triangle markings as well as road signs)
• Pedestrians always have priority
• the cycle lane has to allow for overtaking and riding next to each other (otherwise people will not use it – we have very different cycling speeds in the roundabout and a lot of people in rush hour which need to be accommodated, also helpful for cargo bikes and social cycling)
• this means preferably as wide as a car lane and at least 2m wide
• the curves should be smooth
• there should be stripes separating bikes turning and staying on the roundabout (red) to increase clarity as was attempted with the re-instatement of the Cowley and Iffley lanes
• as little shared space with pedestrians as possible, i.e. only when entering and exiting the roundabout, to reduce conflicts (we already have a lot of pavement cycling which we should not encourage)
• This kind of setup would prevent the double provision of cycle infrastructure on both pavement and road we see so regularly where both the off and on-road version are flawed (see South Parks road for instance).

 

I know this would likely have to see some changes to the middle of the roundabout and monument (but not necessarily). From my sketch I would be most worried about Cowley Place to ensure a car can get past the bike circle and wait for entering the roundabout and that the pavement and cycle lane are wide enough at that place. In any case, the bus gates would be faster and cheaper to implement and would already make quite a difference in terms of traffic volume.

Nonetheless, I believe that this kind of change could really be transformative for cycling in Oxford especially for more vulnerable and young cyclists, exactly as you suggest, Paul.

 

I hope this is clear and helpful, Alison and Robin.

 

Thank you all for your great work!

 

All the best,

Peter

--

[Peter Barnett]

Robin,

Here are my thoughts;

The only comment that I have is that the only part of the junction that seems to have not had any “improvements” is that part where Ling Felce was killed; the St Clement’s entrance. I appreciate the current layout limitations imposed by bus and coach swept paths but I feel that something can and should be done to make drivers approaching the Plain from St Clement’s more aware of the potential existence of cyclists before and on the Plain: a Give Way sign TSRGD 602 (we have one on Cowley Road, why not here?); TSRGD 950 “cycle route ahead” signs. Even a stop sign and line at St Clement’s which was suggested back in October.

Peter

On 23 Jan 2023, at 08:1508, OCN <o...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org> wrote:

This is very helpful input. Alison and I are noticing it down for this afternoon. Will be discussing it later, but key points are:

* New layout is generally thought to be an improvement. Some variances in view depending on how people are used to or trained to ride.

* But the junction the not be considered 'safe' in any objective terms. 

* A full makeover probably needs a lot less motor traffic.

One quick question. 

We now have 2 defined lanes fir Cowley and Iffley, and mostly in lane riding.

Should the Magdelen Bridge stub lane become an in lane cycle marker?

Robin 

Sent from my mobile

[Danny Yee]

My concern with a layout like Paul's is that the cycling route (e.g. Magdalen Bridge to Iffley Rd) has too many turns and twists for cycling, too much of it involving mixing with pedestrians.  It will certainly be faster to cycle on the carriageway with a design like this, and (depending on how the foot-cycle priority crossings work) quite likely safer as well.  If we put in a Dutch-style roundabout, I think we have to do it properly.

So I'm with James.  First we get rid of as much motor traffic as possible - traffic filters, School Streets scheme on Cowley Place, HGV ban on Longwall, etc - then we think about what can be done and we do it properly.  Moving the graveyard is possible.  And we need drastic traffic reduction to fix the Longwall-High junction https://wanderingdanny.com/oxford/2022/10/decide-and-provide-the-traffic-filters-and-cycling-magdalen-bridge/ regardless of what happens at the Plain.

Danny.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/oxfordshire-cycling/LO6P123MB66594C21750C8ACACA2E0762A4CB9%40LO6P123MB6659.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

[Paul Troop]

Just a clarification on ‘Dutch’ roundabouts. Though this might not be as familiar, it is a Dutch design (V32), generally used on rural roundabouts, but not exclusively. It has a considerably better safety record than the design (V31) that people will know about. Example (with 90º turns) below:

 

 

A users’ perspective available here: http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/05/the-best-roundabout-design-for-cyclists.html

 

Best regards, Paul



Error! Filename not specified.

[Danny Yee]

That design has priority for motor vehicles instead of for cycles, and is used in NL outside urban areas, where traffic speeds are higher and cycle volumes are lower.  I can't see that working with cycle volumes on Magdalen Bridge as high as 415/15 minutes in peak. Maybe if we get all the motor traffic except buses off (no exemptions for St Cross and St Clements traffic filters)...

Danny.

[Paul Troop]

Agree that the V32 by itself is insufficient as it does not provide priority to cyclists, but if you add parallel crossings (cheapest and most demand responsive crossing), I think this addresses this. Appreciate that many would prefer the V31 where cyclists do not have to slow down or stop, but there are safety issues with this. The 90º does mean that cyclists are travelling relatively slowly, so they can see that the cars are stopping at the crossing to give way before traversing the carriageway. For context, see a similar, but larger, signalised junction from LTN 1/20:

 

From: Danny Yee <bookre...@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, 23 January 2023 at 10:03
To: Paul Troop <paul....@gmail.com>
Cc: Graham Smith <gpsmith.u...@gmail.com>, james.dawton <james....@btinternet.com>, Alison (oxford) <ch...@cyclox.org>, OCN <o...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org>, cyclox...@googlegroups.com <cyclox...@googlegroups.com>, Oxfordshire Cycling Network <oxfordshi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Oxfordshire Cycling Network] RE: [cyclox-forum] FW: The Plain

[Graham Smith]

Robin,

I’m not at all sure of your generalisation. 

On 23 Jan 2023, at 08:15, OCN <O...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org> wrote:



This is very helpful input. Alison and I are noticing it down for this afternoon. Will be discussing it later, but key points are:

* New layout is generally thought to be an improvement.

• No!
• Cowley entrance better. 
• 2 marked lanes need to be checked for performance, seems mainly pro-car. 
• One of 10 exits and entrances have been improved... 
• Symbols do not have any impact - they do not even define space in a continuous manner. 
• I’m neutral over stopping parking by the fountain. It makes crossing near there slightly worse. When vehicles are there then the driver will cross, legitimating better ‘calming’. . 
• Engineers have fiddled and moved the deckchairs 
• They’ve done MUCH less than they should have and as Peter has said NOTHING for the death site.

Some variances in view depending on how people are used to or trained to ride.

* But the junction Cannot not be considered 'safe' in any objective terms. 

* A full makeover probably needs a lot less motor traffic.

One quick question. 

We now have 2 defined lanes fir Cowley and Iffley, and mostly in lane riding.

Should the Magdelen Bridge stub lane become an in lane cycle marker? I don’t understand.

• Magd Bri continuous-lane is excellent and with colour could be so much clearer, and 
• should be wider and commensurate with Magd Bri lane. 

Robin 

[Danny Yee]

The Plain is actually quite unique.  Quite apart from the physical constraints, Magdalen Bridge is (as far as I can tell) the busiest bus route in the entire UK and the second busiest cycle route.  It also has really high pedestrian flows, which makes any reduction in footway space for a redesign problematic.  I have been unable to find any example of a Dutch roundabout with that kind of traffic mix, but Vredenburg in Utrecht is basically just walking, cycling and buses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOl5vF8l7Fc though that looks like way fewer than 200 buses/hour, even if they are huge articulated ones.  And if we had a signal junction, where would waiting cycles stack?

Danny.

[james.dawton]

Robin,

"One quick question.

We now have 2 defined lanes for Cowley and Iffley, and mostly in lane riding.

Should the Magdelen Bridge stub lane become an in lane cycle marker?"

Can you clarify this? If you mean lose the Cowley/Iffley bound RH cycle lane off Magdalen Bridge and replace it with cycle symbols in the main traffic lane, I would say definately not: -

• The existing cycle lane invites you to go staight on (compared to "I have to move out into the RH traffic lane")
• With more traffic to give way to (LTN traffic going round the Plain/clogging up St Clements), the RH motor traffic lane at commuting times (afternoon when I use it) is often filled with stationary/waiting traffic giving way.
• The RH Cowley/Iffley cyle lane makes the Magdalen Bridge > St Clements traffic more careful about crossing the path of Cowley/Iffley bound cycle users, and more oftem than not they indicate left as the see them selves as changing lanes.

Cheers,

James.

140 Poplar Grove

Kennington,

Oxford,

OX1 5QP

------ Original Message ------
From: "OCN" <o...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org>
To: "Graham Smith" <gpsmith.u...@gmail.com>; "Peter Whitfield" <peterwh...@outlook.com>
Cc: "Alison (oxford)" <ch...@cyclox.org>; "Infrastructure" <Infrastuc...@cyclox.org>; "Oxfordshire Cycling Network" <oxfordshi...@googlegroups.com>; "Paul Troop" <paul....@gmail.com>; "cc: james.dawton" <james....@btinternet.com>; "cyclox...@googlegroups.com" <cyclox...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 23 Jan, 2023 At 08:15
Subject: Re: [Oxfordshire Cycling Network] RE: [cyclox-forum] FW: The Plain

This is very helpful input. Alison and I are noticing it down for this afternoon. Will be discussing it later, but key points are:

* New layout is generally thought to be an improvement. Some variances in view depending on how people are used to or trained to ride.

* But the junction the not be considered 'safe' in any objective terms.

* A full makeover probably needs a lot less motor traffic.

One quick question.

We now have 2 defined lanes fir Cowley and Iffley, and mostly in lane riding.

Should the Magdelen Bridge stub lane become an in lane cycle marker?

Robin

Sent from my mobile

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[Kevin Hickman]

I'd like to see some of the design constraints removed to see what could be possible - eg, removing coach services that need to turn on their way through the Plain.

Remove a constraint and see how much space it frees up - is it worth doing or is the junction still compromised by the other constraints? If yes, then start looking at how for example coach services could be rerouted.

K

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[Peter Barnett]

Robin,

I agree with Graham.

Not much of an improvement when the Plain is still a no-go area for Joyriders. I don’t mind; I will cycle confidently on any old crap they throw at me, but less confident riders will still be put off. As Alison says - does it pass the 8-year old test?

The cycle safety group “co-production” process needs to improve. The group were given no opportunity to review or approve the final plans; it appears that only Dan Levy and Andrew Gant have that privilege and we have this from Andrew Gant: "officers who are professionals and highly experienced....” So, are they rigorously questioning the final designs?

Peter

[Peter Barnett]

Robin,

I agree with Graham.

Not much of an improvement when the Plain is still a no-go area for Joyriders. I don’t mind; I will cycle confidently on any old crap they throw at me, but less confident riders will still be put off. As Alison says - does it pass the 8-year old test?

The cycle safety group “co-production” process needs to improve. The group were given no opportunity to review or approve the final plans; it appears that only Dan Levy and Andrew Gant have that privilege and we have this from Andrew Gant: "officers who are professionals and highly experienced....” So, are they rigorously questioning the final designs?

Peter

On 23 Jan 2023, at 10:5111, Graham Smith <gpsmith.u...@gmail.com> wrote:

[james.dawton]

Soewhere in the myriad of e mails (can't find it now!) there was a comment on parking by the fountain. I went past the other week and saw a row of toast rack sheffield stands there.

Also. mentioned in Cyclox Slack I think a few weeks back, I saw the Sainsbury's delivery truck arrive about 8.30am, I pulled over to watch. Exited Cowley Rd onto Plain, then did a big U turn around the end of the fountain island (so all traffic siopped). A manouver we might not like, but the driver did it well: -

Very slow exit from Cowley - was waiting ofr a scooter on his LHS to go, scooter waited, so truck cautiously pulled out.

After the U turn he had fully over shot the marked deliver bay, so had to reverse towards the bridge, The moment cycle appeared over Magdalen Bridge the reversing lights went off and he waited until clear again.

Also, I have crossed at end of school time, 3 white coaches for Magdalen School waiting in a line outside Sainsburys.

[Colin & Sally Hersom]

In December, there were temporary signs saying that there was a "trial"
of cycling in these two streets. Was this merely a simple way of
opening them while the Christmas Market blocked Broad St or was it a
real trial? If the latter, what were the conclusions?

Now that the temporary signs have disappeared, it appears to be back to
where it was, except that:

1) The restriction sign at the George St end is turned through
90degrees, so cannot the read

2) There is no sign of any sort restricting traffic exiting Market
Street onto Cornmarket - the bollard that appeared briefly is tarmacked
over and there are no other obstacles.

What would be the position of any cyclist cycling along Cornmarket who
had entered at either of these points?

Cornmarket (and possibly Queen St) appears to have fewer pedestrians on
potential conflict with cyclists than the now reduced-width Broad St,
which is a prime cycle route!

--
Colin.

[Paul Troop]

Could somebody more familiar with the Plain saga point me in the direction of the traffic flow data please?

(Appreciate the meeting has taken place, but suspect there is a lot more discussion / development to come.)

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[Graham Smith]

Paul,

You want Traffic Flow Data, I attach Patrick's work on The Plain.

But his numbers have been challenged, possibly 2x the AADT counts, I'm not sure of the outcome (Robin, Allison?). 

"Cyclist and traffic flows

The junction is very busy. Around 55,000 vehicles and 12,000 pedestrians pass through the

junction over 24 hours1. For comparison, the vehicle flows on The Plain Roundabout match

those of the A34 south of M40 at 56,000 AADT.

Every day, over 12,000 cyclists circle round it, with the vast majority (10,000 cyclists2) flowing

from or to Magdalen Bridge leading to/from St Clements, Cowley Road and Iffley Road. Cyclists

share with around 42,000 motorised vehicles over 24 hours, including around 33,000 cars,

3000 LGVs, 2000 motorbikes, 3000 buses and 300 lorries.

During the day, the flows of vehicles and cyclists are continuous. Every quarter of an hour

during the day (7am-7pm), there are between 500 and 1000 vehicles entering the roundabout,

meaning that there is a vehicle entering the roundabout every 1 to 2 seconds. The only junction

type that can cope with such large flows is a roundabout. Signalisation would never work.

Over the next 10 years cycle flows are expected nearly to double. Oxford LCWIP sets a target

of a 50% increase in cycling, which means that any design changes for The Plain will need to

cater for around 20,000 cyclists by 2030, accompanied by a decrease in car trips to around

20,000 with Connecting Oxford. However, even with Connecting Oxford, The Plain Roundabout

will continue to be very busy.

_____________________________________

The official AADT:                                                         2014.   2015    2016    2017    2018     X           Y                      

CP501 A420  A420 OXFORD MAGDALEN BRIDGE  19900  20400  21600  20700  20900  452246  206007

Make of these what you will, Patrick has, I think, ceased claiming that The Plain has more movements than the A34 at M40.

Graham

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 9:14 PM Paul Troop <paul....@gmail.com> wrote:

Could somebody more familiar with the Plain saga point me in the direction of the traffic flow data please?

(Appreciate the meeting has taken place, but suspect there is a lot more discussion / development to come.)

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, 10:58 Danny Yee, <bookre...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Plain is actually quite unique.  Quite apart from the physical constraints, Magdalen Bridge is (as far as I can tell) the busiest bus route in the entire UK and the second busiest cycle route.  It also has really high pedestrian flows, which makes any reduction in footway space for a redesign problematic.  I have been unable to find any example of a Dutch roundabout with that kind of traffic mix, but Vredenburg in Utrecht is basically just walking, cycling and buses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOl5vF8l7Fc though that looks like way fewer than 200 buses/hour, even if they are huge articulated ones.  And if we had a signal junction, where would waiting cycles stack?

Danny.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 10:03, Danny Yee <bookre...@gmail.com> wrote:

That design has priority for motor vehicles instead of for cycles, and is used in NL outside urban areas, where traffic speeds are higher and cycle volumes are lower.  I can't see that working with cycle volumes on Magdalen Bridge as high as 415/15 minutes in peak. Maybe if we get all the motor traffic except buses off (no exemptions for St Cross and St Clements traffic filters)...

Danny.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 09:35, Paul Troop <paul....@gmail.com> wrote:

Just a clarification on ‘Dutch’ roundabouts. Though this might not be as familiar, it is a Dutch design (V32), generally used on rural roundabouts, but not exclusively. It has a considerably better safety record than the design (V31) that people will know about. Example (with 90º turns) below:

 

 

A users’ perspective available here: http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/05/the-best-roundabout-design-for-cyclists.html

 

Best regards, Paul

 

--

-- -- 

Graham Paul Smith, Urban Design

[Paul Troop]

Wow! There's no way that there are 50k vehicles going through the plain every day. Given that the entries are almost all single, 20-25k is more likely. Looks like a big fail by OCC. Has this influenced the options? A Dutch roundabout could handle these flows even without traffic reduction.

[Jake Backus]

The link Paul Troop shared was interesting.

Also the adverse camber on the roundabout, shown in the video. This made it less comfortable for drivers who needed to slow down.

And I quote this for info:

There is a common misconception held in other countries that Dutch roundabouts are safe for cycling due to their geometry, but actually the roundabouts of Assen, just as other Dutch cities, vary enormously in design. The geometry of Dutch roundabouts is not the common factor which makes them safe. What makes them safe is removing cyclists from harm's way and the safety of different Dutch designs comes down very much to how well they keep cyclists away from potential injury.

Best regards

Jake.

07747006544
https://www.facebook.com/HiddenHelpCornwall/
https://hiddenhelp.org/
https://www.oxfordshireyouthcycling.org
https://www.facebook.com/Cycloxfanpage/
http://www.cyclox.org

On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 08:48 , <O...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org> wrote:

For info, 3 key points on The Plain from yesterday:

• They are getting close on a proposal on the parking
• Alison, Annette and I conveyed the overview of input from this and other discussions. We agreed to compile this and send it in full rather than just summarise it, so they get full richness.
• All agreed that this was the interim solution, and that a full solution needed more serious work, and also less traffic. Andrew Gant noted this was exactly part of the what we all hoped for from Traffic Filters, but now delayed by Network Rail behaving [I’ll not relay this bit, but it wasn’t complementary].

 

I have been concerned about how much traffic impact the Filters will actually have, but if Paul is right and volumes are lower than those quoted, then maybe there is a chance.

Paul – one possibility is that sometime buses and HGVs are counted as PCUs (Passenger Car-equivalent Units) and a bus or truck may be 2 or 3 PCUs. Lots of buses here.

 

Best regards,

Robin

 

From: Paul Troop <paul....@gmail.com>
Sent: 24 January 2023 08:12
To: Graham Smith <gpsmith.u...@gmail.com>
Cc: Cyclox Forum <cyclox...@googlegroups.com>; Oxfordshire Cycling Network <oxfordshi...@googlegroups.com>; OCN <o...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org>; Peter Whitfield <peterwh...@outlook.com>; cc: Alison (oxford) <ch...@cyclox.org>; Infrastructure <Infrastuc...@cyclox.org>; *James Dawton <james....@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [Oxfordshire Cycling Network] RE: [cyclox-forum] FW: The Plain

 

Wow! There's no way that there are 50k vehicles going through the plain every day. Given that the entries are almost all single, 20-25k is more likely. Looks like a big fail by OCC. Has this influenced the options? A Dutch roundabout could handle these flows even without traffic reduction.

 

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[Danny Yee]

The Vivacity camera on Magdalen Bridge regularly reported 10,000 cars and 2000 buses a day, as well as 9000 cycles, which is (with heavily tidal and peak-focused flows) outside CROW guidance for the busiest arm of a single lane roundabout.

The main problem I see with a Dutch-style roundabout is that there isn't room to put in proper setbacks, at least not for traffic flows of 200+ buses/hour.  I think we need to remove as much private motor traffic as possible, then see what can be done with bus service consolidation and possibly rerouting.

Danny.

[Danny Yee]

The roundabout shown at the top of http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/05/the-best-roundabout-design-for-cyclists.html is 60 metres across the narrowest cross-section and 75 metres on the longest (edge of zebra to edge of zebra).  This looks like a great option for a lot of locations elsewhere in the county, but I'm not seeing anywhere inside Oxford it would fit.

Danny.

[Alison Hill]

And this is very consistent with the DfT data https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/manualcountpoints/47125

Best wishes Alison

 

From: Oxfordshire Network <oxfordshi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Danny Yee <bookre...@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 10:24
To: Cyclox Forum Forum <cyclox...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Oxfordshire Network <oxfordshi...@googlegroups.com>, Robin Tucker <o...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org>, Infrastructure <Infrastuc...@cyclox.org>
Subject: Re: [Oxfordshire Cycling Network] RE: [cyclox-forum] FW: The Plain

 

The Vivacity camera on Magdalen Bridge regularly reported 10,000 cars and 2000 buses a day, as well as 9000 cycles, which is (with heavily tidal and peak-focused flows) outside CROW guidance for the busiest arm of a single lane roundabout.

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[Danny Yee]

The 2018 manual count looks roughly right, but the estimates since then are nonsensical.  I have no idea why the model expects bus numbers to have fallen by a third, but they clearly haven't.  And the 2020 "boom" in cycling numbers is presumably being adjusted by national cycling rates (up in lockdown).

Danny.

[Graham Smith]

Love it.

• I guess an early thought is 'whatabout bus capacity?'
  
• This is good: "I don't know about the legalities of building over a graveyard, but it seems ludicrous if that can prevent changes that will prevent people alive today being killed or injured when using this junction".  
  
• The island graveyard is a bit higher than the carriageway so many trees might be(?) compromised by lowering their level?

Graham

On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 2:36 PM hannah kirby <hannah...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

I missed all this yesterday as I was busy with work.  Just thought I'd throw into the mix a mock-up I did of The Plain as a Dutch-style roundabout as part of the Headington active travel plan HLS is working up.  (Yellow = cycle lane)  Looks quite similar to Richard Mann's mock-up, although more drastic - involves reducing the central island size and putting carriageway over some of it, but hopefully enabling most of the trees to remain standing! 

I don't know about the legalities of building over a graveyard, but it seems ludicrous if that can prevent changes that will prevent people alive today being killed or injured when using this junction.    

Could OCC apply for £30m or whatever it will take from the ATF to build this?  Surely there's a case for this, with The Plain being such a unique junction in the UK as Danny describes.  Could we approach ATE directly to discuss this?  And get someone competent to design it, with ATE having a veto over funding it if it doesn't meet LTN1/20 standards.

I know, I'm a fantasist, but if this isn't what the ATF is for, what is?

BW

Hannah

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 08:49:00 GMT, O...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org <o...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org> wrote:

For info, 3 key points on The Plain from yesterday:

• They are getting close on a proposal on the parking
• Alison, Annette and I conveyed the overview of input from this and other discussions. We agreed to compile this and send it in full rather than just summarise it, so they get full richness.
• All agreed that this was the interim solution, and that a full solution needed more serious work, and also less traffic. Andrew Gant noted this was exactly part of the what we all hoped for from Traffic Filters, but now delayed by Network Rail behaving [I’ll not relay this bit, but it wasn’t complementary].

 

I have been concerned about how much traffic impact the Filters will actually have, but if Paul is right and volumes are lower than those quoted, then maybe there is a chance.

Paul – one possibility is that sometime buses and HGVs are counted as PCUs (Passenger Car-equivalent Units) and a bus or truck may be 2 or 3 PCUs. Lots of buses here.

 

Best regards,

Robin

 

From: Paul Troop <paul....@gmail.com>

Sent: 24 January 2023 08:12
To: Graham Smith <gpsmith.u...@gmail.com>
Cc: Cyclox Forum <cyclox...@googlegroups.com>; Oxfordshire Cycling Network <oxfordshi...@googlegroups.com>; OCN <o...@cyclingukoxfordshire.org>; Peter Whitfield <peterwh...@outlook.com>; cc: Alison (oxford) <ch...@cyclox.org>; Infrastructure <Infrastuc...@cyclox.org>; *James Dawton <james....@btinternet.com>

Subject: Re: [Oxfordshire Cycling Network] RE: [cyclox-forum] FW: The Plain

 

Wow! There's no way that there are 50k vehicles going through the plain every day. Given that the entries are almost all single, 20-25k is more likely. Looks like a big fail by OCC. Has this influenced the options? A Dutch roundabout could handle these flows even without traffic reduction.

 

 

 

A users’ perspective available here: http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/05/the-best-roundabout-design-for-cyclists.html

 

Best regards, Paul

 

--
-- -- 

Graham Paul Smith, Urban Design

 

5 Western Road,

Grandpont,

Oxford, OX1 4LF

0779 626 3836

01865 725193

[Richard Mann]

If the level of traffic was halved, you could fit in quite a compact Dutch roundabout in the mouth of Iffley Road (with some incursion into a bit of Magdalen School garden). It needs to be that small and pushed that far south to separate the three southern arms. But as Danny says: FIRST YOU NEED TO HALVE THE TRAFFIC.

Richard

[Graham Smith]

That looks rather brilliant. 

Graham 

Sent from my iPhone

Graham Paul Smith, Urban Design

5 Western Road

Oxford, OX1 4LF

MB 07796 263836

01865 725193

gpsmith.u...@gmail.com

On 24 Jan 2023, at 23:06, Richard Mann <richard.man...@gmail.com> wrote:



If the level of traffic was halved, you could fit in quite a compact Dutch roundabout in the mouth of Iffley Road (with some incursion into a bit of Magdalen School garden). It needs to be that small and pushed that far south to separate the three southern arms. But as Danny says: FIRST YOU NEED TO HALVE THE TRAFFIC.

Richard

<ThePlainSmallRbt.bmp>

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[andy.c...@gmail.com]

Hi Colin
I haven't seen any other comments on this. I hoped someone better informed than me might respond, but I think we are all distracted by this evening's conference. My understanding is that Aron Wisdom approached Alison to say that Broad St would be closed to cycling during the Christmas Market and asked what alternative route would be preferred. The decision was that Queen St and Cornmarket would be opened for the duration but that in future years the market would not obstruct the cycle route so the diversion wouldn't be repeated. I had hoped that there was a secret plan to see what public reaction there was (and I and was told by one person to get off my bike!) but I think the word 'trial' is misleading - I doubt there is a real plan to reopen Queen St at the moment.

Best wishes
Andy

Andy Chivers
12 Apsley Rd
Oxford OX2 7QY
01865 310350

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[Graham Smith]

Colin asks a good question. 

My experience during the ‘allowed’ period was that there were no problems. None at all that I was aware of. 

I too have seen vehicles entering from Market St, ehivh I find unacceptable, (maybe it’s ok for ODS?). 

There should be no restriction on people cycling. 

As Gilligan wrote in ‘Running  Out of Road’: https://nic.org.uk/studies-reports/growth-arc/running-out-of-road/

Graham 

Sent from my iPhone

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MB 07796 263836

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On 25 Jan 2023, at 16:10, andy.c...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Colin

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cyclox-forum/015201d930d7%248baa3570%24a2fea050%24%40gmail.com.

[Paul Troop]

Very cool. However, can’t the circulatory carriageway be expanded to take it round the other side of the current island? Ie, does it need to be small or round?

 

 

From: cyclox...@googlegroups.com <cyclox...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Richard Mann <richard.man...@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 23:06
To: cyclox...@googlegroups.com <cyclox...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Oxfordshire Cycling Network] RE: [cyclox-forum] FW: The Plain

Richard

 

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[Simon Banks]

Would now be a (very, given the predicted high xmas pedestrian volumes) good time to formulate and send a FoI request about formal, written reported incidents concerning cycles in conflict with pedestrians, to TVP & OCC? 

Indeed did OCC inform TVP that the TMO was being suspended?  (and how many cyclists got ticketed as a result)?

The results would provide irrefutable evidence that the need for any cycle ban, being in the minds of the motoring lobby as they walk from car door to retail door, and back.

Simon 

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[james.dawton]

Tempourary video cameras/detectors of some form (about 4 boxes per pole) were put up on tall poles during the trial period - both ends of Cornmarket and the Bonn Square end of Queen St. There was one at the Carfax end of Queen St but it wasn't there for long.

I noticed the missing sign/tarmacced over bollard at the end of Market St. It might be a (sluggish as usual) work in progress. If nothing appears soon, I'll put it on fixmystreet if no one else does.

The Bonn Square end of Queen St no cycling signs were reported as twisted round on fixmystreet. The reply was that due to the trial they would remain twisted and/or greyed out. It might be a work in progress, or not joined up thinking (end of trial) and have to be reported again.

Cheers,

James

140 Poplar Grove

Kennington,

Oxford,

OX1 5QP

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[Robert Paynter]

I think the traffic was better when the Longwall street was limited - most of last academic year.

What if Magdalen Bridge had one way at a time for motor traffic, tuned to favour busses, and leaving plenty of space for wide cycle lanes both ways - Wallingford bridge is a smaller example.  After a few days of anger people would change the ways they do things and flow would reduce.  Someone who really needs to go that route could still do it - fully stopping routes is a main complaint of LTN barriers.  

The railway bridge could be the same - much cheaper than the planned changes to Botley Road - which as far as I can tell will just move the bottle-neck to next to Binsey Lane.

Folly Bridge could be treated similarly.

Robert

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[Danny Yee]

One-way on Magdalen Bridge won't work because there's nowhere for the buses to stack waiting (would back up into the Plain).  And there needs to be almost _no_ motor traffic on Longwall to allow the right-turn lane at the Longwall-High junction to be removed, which is essential for making that junction safe and accessible.  So the only solution is a proper bus gate (local buses only) on Longwall (or St Cross).   https://wanderingdanny.com/oxford/2022/10/decide-and-provide-the-traffic-filters-and-cycling-magdalen-bridge/

Danny.

[Danny Yee]

Even with buses as 2 pcu and HGVs as 2.5 (and big vans at 1.5), I can't see 55,000 pcu/day going through the Plain.  I think they must be double-counting somehow - 27,000 pcu/day still seems a bit high, but is plausible.

Danny.