INCOSE 2021 paper - Systems Engineering discovers 'second order'

[Benjamin P. Taylor]

Quite interesting. 

https://stream.syscoi.com/2021/07/24/an-assessment-of-the-adequacy-of-common-definitions-of-the-concept-of-system-salado-and-kulkarni-2021/

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[ben sweeting]

Thanks for sharing this Benjamin. Of course, its systems engineering (in the broadest sense) from which soft systems methodology develops, and ssm and second-order cybernetics have some similarities in outlook.

I've also just come across this 'Engineering Cybernetics' book from the 1950s, by Qian Xuesen - available open access here: #7 - Engineering cybernetics. - Full View | HathiTrust Digital Library - and this interesting review of it: Engineering cybernetics: 60 years in the making (researchgate.net) - which says (my emphasis):

More importantly, the book shows, in the true spirit of science, that all assumptions,explicit or otherwise, must be made accountable in engineering. The turning point in the book is where Tsien goes beyond the model-based theory of servomechanisms and argues for the necessity of a new design principle for a general type of system where the properties and characteristics of the controlled system are largely unknown.

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[Benjamin P. Taylor]

I have the strongest deja vu reading your response, but the reference is new to me - and then I realised the author is this interesting character: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen

see also 

https://stream.syscoi.com/2019/01/11/chris-beiser-on-twitter-the-role-that-complex-systems-theory-played-in-letting-xi-jinping-centralize-power-in-china-with-cybernetics-https-t-co-nqpxkdlnhk/

https://stream.syscoi.com/2019/10/09/the-hsue-shen-tsien-think-tank-adopting-a-systems-science-approach-to-address-complex-problems-science-aaas/

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[Jason the Goodman]

Hi Ben, this is a talk to add a bit more understanding of Tsien (Qian): https://vimeo.com/366988624 

Best - Jason

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[ben sweeting]

Thanks for sharing Jason, fascinating!

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[Jason the Goodman]

Hi Ben, you're welcome. I apologize for my broken English (since I had not used it from 1999 when I went back to China to 2019 when I moved to Washington DC) but there is a little background why that talk happened: The Science magazine distributed to all their subscribers an article about "Qian Thinktank" in PRC under CCP control that claimed Qian as "the founding father of system science."  That confused and concerned a number of our colleagues, several of them were former presidents of ISSS or ASC. Thus they asked me where did that "founding father" perception come from, and I happen to know Qian personally, thus I put together that PPT (quick&dirty with several typos) and had that Zoom session with a few of our colleagues.  Consider it an "insider draft" not a formal publication, please.  Regards - Jason

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