Re: CYBCOM. URGENT. Unauthorized posting of copyrighted material

[Bernard C E Scott]

That PDF is freely available on the web. If the attachment is removed, perhaps you could substitute a  link to https://www.pangaro.com/Heinz-von-Foerster/Heinz_Von_Foerster-Understanding_Understanding.pdf .

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 at 10:12, Michael Lissack <liss...@gmail.com> wrote:

Joshua

Please remove the attachment  from Bernard's message as it sits on the list archives.  He has attached a full copy (in pdf) of Heinz's Understanding Understanding which remains subject to Springer's copyright.   Should Springer's algorithms find it Google could end up shutting down or suspending the cybcom group for violations of the terms of use.

[Michael Lissack]

Paul and Joshua please note having that pdf freely available is a copyright violation

Get a copy of my book "Sell for More Than Your Neighbors"

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[Lucas Pawlik]

Thank you very much for the pdf. and your love message!   The little truth is criticized. The big truth is ignored. This is the way of the world, and also the way of cybernetics.

Socrates was certainly right when Aristotle and Plato warned that philosophy could not be put into writing. The spoken word still accommodates the spirit, because the spoken language is a product of synesthesia. The writing can communicate only what the inner voice of the living man can explain to him himself. Writings speak only to prophets. That is why the Taoists laughed at Confucius, and his attempt to lead people to wisdom through explanations. Because no matter how far a donkey may travel, it will never arrive as a horse. We do well to learn to be content that we have written our books for ourselves, like a child who has painted a picture, like a monk who paints mandalas in the sand, knowing that the wind will blur it.

With a love for cybernetics 

Lucas 

P.S. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)01462-8/fulltext

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[Bernard C E Scott]

My pleasure, Lucas.

A quick google search will show at least two other sites where the PDF is available.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cybcom/CAJEHiNiocuFEn5jyOtvdMF2N-C30uxu-gtuEt--NgarZvGon-w%40mail.gmail.com.

[Bernard C E Scott]

BTW, I once defined cybernetics as 'the art and science of fostering goodwill'. Sadly, I find that, for me, some cases are intractable. Prayer for the souls in question is all I have to offer. :-)

[Michael Lissack]

Theft is theft regardless

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cybcom/CAF7e6e%2BC-uNrCr%3DdJ6Esb_qsfzqQ%2BAi%2B4trkBrP3p5s3TdwF2g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Bernard C E Scott]

Theft lies in the eye of the beholder.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/scientific-publishing-rip-off-taxpayers-fund-research

https://crl.acrl.org/index.php/crl/article/viewFile/14422/15868

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[Michael Lissack]

Publicly posting copyrighted material or free download while that material is still being sold for money by its publisher is THEFT (absent a license for such downloads from the publisher).

It is grossly improper for this list to host or support such theft. 

Further in the US intentional copyright violations and Bernard has made hi intent clear amounts to a crime.

Enough.

Google has been given more than enough grounds to close this list for good.

Remove the pdf remove the links.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cybcom/CAF7e6eJPeQ8CQQ4WuFRzxPTFjy4N0SUVEjRo00Og2C3EbXrjHw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Benjamin P. Taylor]

I had a quick look at the Google Groups content policy. I'm not a lawyer but was a tad worried about the list.

The copyright holder (naturally) - but only the copryight holder - has a right in the policy to request that any copyrighted material be taken down under 'DMCA' and Google would no doubt comply without question (this has caused a lot of problems across the web with over-active and malicious takedown requests, cops deliberately playing music over recording they don't want to be shared etc).

Clearly, sharing copyrighted material is against the law if permission has not been granted to the original shared (though often there is no way to be sure about this, without asking the copyright holder anew), and of course providing the copyright holder has actively defended their copyright in any previous instances that arose (usually acting within three years in US law, from a quick google).

Sharing links to potentially copyright infringing material is requested not to be done in the content policy (with a please! Rather cute), but is apparently not forbidden and nor is there any mechanism to complain about a share of a link that I can see. There may be wider legal implications of this which I do not know. I would also note that every reply to this chain is sharing the pdf link anew.

So in conclusion, I do not think there is any significant risk to the existence of this group from the share - though if it can be deleted from the google groups online repository, that would seem sensible.

cheers

Benjamin

Benjamin P. Taylor
www.bentaylor.com

In a personal capacity

07931317230
20 Evesham Way London SW11 5QX

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[Bernard C E Scott]

One is free to commit 'crimes' in the face of a system that is unfair and unjust to the point of destroying our planet. Obviously, one has to face the consequences of one's actions.

Access to 'knowledge' should not be restricted to a privileged few.

If everyone was 'law-abiding' there would be no change. See the encounters between Jesus and the legalistic Pharisees.

Or perhaps read The Grapes of Wrath, Les Miserables, Germinal. The Communist Manifesto, The Pedagogy of the Oppressed ... and so many more.

Or contemplate the agenda and activities of Xtinction Rebellion and Green Peace.

Or think about regimes where the masses were/are kept illiterate or when the Christian Bible only existed in Greek and Latin translations.

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 at 21:13, Michael Lissack <lis...@lissack.com> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cybcom/CAPmNe_bmgXcRvzYptayUwQ4%3DxmrJfx-Vx7jVW9EGHiqR50kcmg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Michael Lissack]

Google is unlikely to react well to the intentional sharing of copyrighted material without permission over their servers.  They are likely to have a similar adverse reaction to the current fact that the material is being hosted by them thanks to Bernard.

By definition if the book is still being sold then the copyright holder (Springer) has NOT yielded its rights.

What Bernard did was theft pure and simple.

Hosting and direct sharing are more villainous than linking.

Joshua I am begging you please remove what Bernard has posted and the links to Paul's version

Paul please delete your version or at a minimum password protect it.

In the alternate Bernard and others can delete posts with the attachment and the links.

Google can read these posts and has bots that do read the posts.  Failure to act after this kind of warning can be regarded as ill intent.

It is all needless.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cybcom/CAGzvYRdQhpYjsiDkpkP7BYEAMgSKrxro8jNff_t-B4R4RTEpww%40mail.gmail.com.

[Michael Lissack]

I have lost my patience and have notified Springer. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cybcom/CAF7e6eKf5RAoVAgnEGoyXoC-%3D81iZzUK2%3Daz%3D%3DNAwK9a9vnjNQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Michael Lissack]

From: anti-...@springernature.com <anti-...@springernature.com>

Thank you for reporting piracy to us. All piracy cases will be investigated. We will respond to you as quickly as possible but please bear in mind that speed of response will be dependent on workload and complexity of the case that you have reported to us. We appreciate your patience.

[Joshua Madara]

Michael,

I say this with all due respect: please calm your tits.

Yes, I am the CybCom moderator, but I also have a very busy career and I do not spend every waking moment reading CybCom. I am on Pacific time, so all this drama started while I was sleeping before I started work this morning, and I have been too busy to respond to any of it before now.

I will investigate all the related messages as soon as I can this evening, and respond in the way I believe is most appropriate, including deleting whatever needs to be deleted -- possibly this entire list thanks to Michael.

Thank you for your (im)patience.

Sincerely,

Joshua

[Michael Lissack]

My loss of patience had nothing to do with your timing Joshua it had everything to do with Bernard claiming he had the "right" to steal Springer's intellectual property and to use this list to publish it.

My ethics do not allow me to stand idlely by when someone announces they have the right to commit a crime and to endanger a collective good (this list) while doing so.

I am a Springer author.  I owe them a duty re intellectual property.   

You Joshua have every right to take whatever time you need.

Bernard has zero right to announce he has the right to commit what amounts to a crime.

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[Krippendorff, Klaus]

Michael,

These copyright laws are complicated.

 I was under the impression that publishing the submitted manuscript of a publication is not covered by copyright laws. I also don’t know whether this applies only to published papers in journals or books as well. I wished someone could shed light on this difference.  Also, only Bernard can tell us whether his link is to the copy of the publication or to the document he submitted to the publisher. 

I wished you would shed some light on what is protected and what is not. 

Klaus

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 11, 2021, at 5:07 PM, Bernard C E Scott <bern...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Michael Lissack]

there is no complication

the pdf Bernard circulated is a scan of the entirety of Springer's printed book

there is no such thing as fair use for "use in the entirety"

having been through five years of lawsuits re my electronic library i have a deep knowledge of copyright law

what bernard did rises to the level of a crime

Michael Lissack 

14 Stratford Rd Marblehead MA 01945 phone 617-710-9565

http://lissack.com

Michael is the immediate past President of the American Society for Cybernetics (2014-2020), Executive Director Emeritus of the Institute for the Study of Coherence and Emergence and Professor of Design and Innovation at Tongji University, Shanghai.  Opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect the views of any of the institutions with which I have an affiliation.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cybcom/DE85D553-F83E-4B62-A3A7-04A4B49A1CEB%40asc.upenn.edu.

[Michael Lissack]

see  https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html 

Michael Lissack 

14 Stratford Rd Marblehead MA 01945 phone 617-710-9565

http://lissack.com

Michael is the immediate past President of the American Society for Cybernetics (2014-2020), Executive Director Emeritus of the Institute for the Study of Coherence and Emergence and Professor of Design and Innovation at Tongji University, Shanghai.  Opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect the views of any of the institutions with which I have an affiliation.

On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 5:56 PM Michael Lissack <lis...@lissack.com> wrote:

there is no complication

the pdf Bernard circulated is a scan of the entirety of Springer's printed book

there is no such thing as fair use for "use in the entirety"

having been through five years of lawsuits re my electronic library i have a deep knowledge of copyright law

what bernard did rises to the level of a crime

Michael Lissack 

14 Stratford Rd Marblehead MA 01945 phone 617-710-9565

http://lissack.com

Michael is the immediate past President of the American Society for Cybernetics (2014-2020), Executive Director Emeritus of the Institute for the Study of Coherence and Emergence and Professor of Design and Innovation at Tongji University, Shanghai.  Opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect the views of any of the institutions with which I have an affiliation.

On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 5:52 PM Krippendorff, Klaus <klaus.kri...@asc.upenn.edu> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cybcom/DE85D553-F83E-4B62-A3A7-04A4B49A1CEB%40asc.upenn.edu.

[Michael Lissack]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 5:52 PM Krippendorff, Klaus <klaus.kri...@asc.upenn.edu> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cybcom/DE85D553-F83E-4B62-A3A7-04A4B49A1CEB%40asc.upenn.edu.

[Lucas Pawlik]

Dear Benjamin, 

                          thank you for your effort! I am a Springer author too, and I feel much safer now knowing what is what and who is who. Thank you Joshua for undoing Bernard's crime before Springer's investigation can catch up to him. 

Best wishes

Lucas 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cybcom/CAGzvYRdQhpYjsiDkpkP7BYEAMgSKrxro8jNff_t-B4R4RTEpww%40mail.gmail.com.