Fwd: Methodological discussion “Systems Approach as a Way of Humanity in the Complex World” on December 7th
Jason Hu
From: Jason Hu <jasonth...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Methodological discussion “Systems Approach as a Way of Humanity in the Complex World” on December 7th
To: Viatcheslav Maratcha <mara...@yandex.ru>
Dear Slava,
Thank you for your invitation – a little bit on short notice, but I think the theme of your conference is very important. So I am glad to attend your discussion session on Dec. 7th. I also ask your permission to record the discussion if technology permits. Here is my initial response to your key questions:
1 – Are existing systems methodologies and cybernetic approaches capable of helping us cope with the complexity and conflictness of the world? My answer is yes and no. Yes in the sense that a number of vital components of those methodologies and approaches already exist (I shall point a number of examples) that are proven to be effective; No in the sense that those methodologies and approaches are not in the hands of those who are running the world and the academic intellectuals are missing the capacity to communicate the significance of these approaches to both the commanding politicians and the general public. Therefore, works like building an “understanding bridge” need to be done.
2- What does “improvement” of the situation mean from a systems perspective? I think in order to define “improvement”, we must define the universal value criteria first. In order to define the universal value criteria that can be agreed upon by “All Humans”, the civilization development direction should be agreed upon, if not by all humans but at least by most of the humans. We will face the topic of “Clash of Values” here and build our consensus if possible.
3- How can systems methodologies and cybernetic approaches help us to restructure international relations, society, and systems of global and social governance? I think there is no panacea or “silver bullet” existing here, although numerous people have tried what I call “elite’s approaches.” Instead, I think we can promote grass-root approaches through education and training to younger generations so constructive and healthy forces can emerge to participate in “the game of managing our world” based on the universal values that we hopefully find through the previous question.
4- How to make sure that we understand the problem situation and act systematically? We must define the “owner of the problem” and “the owner of the situation”, i.e. observer-thinker-actioner (I call OTA) who perceives the situation in a specific way and identify it as a problem. English saying here, “one man’s meat is another man’s poison.” Such defining or identifying processes will be dynamic (keep updating) and social (through a tremendous amount of communications), and we can never be absolutely “sure”, just relatively “make sure” with the most advanced epistemological tools.
5- How can different systems methodologies and cybernetic approaches be combined to resolve “multidimensional” problems and conflicts? The first step would be the authors and promoters of those methodologies and approaches sitting in the same room; hopefully, all of them won’t fight with each other, can set their egos aside, and are willing to listen to each other. (That is exactly what our Club of Remy has been doing.) Given enough time for healthy interactions (self-organization), there will be a chance that consensus can be built and a solution to the problems or conflicts can emerge.
6- Can a “general systems” framework be established for integrating systems methodologies? No. At least not before all the above five tasks are successfully done. Instead, an educational curriculum teaching the toolbox of various methodologies/approaches can be developed into a public training operation so that more and more people at the grass-root group level and organizational level can use them in their situations to deal with their problems.
7- Is it possible to create a common communication space for systems thinkers and practitioners working in different systems/cybernetic traditions? There are a number of efforts in this direction currently going on. The Club of Remy is one of them, trying to follow the footsteps of the Macy Conferences, although it is far from desired effectiveness. If institutional support can be identified, the discussion forums like the Club of Remy can be developed into an educational/training organization that could serve as a common communication space.
If these notes are in line with your organizers' intentions, please let me know the specific format of your session - how long each person is to speak initially, are PPT slides are used, etc., and I shall send you an introduction piece.
One more note, the mailing list of the Club of Remy is exclusively used for coordinating the club activities, so if you like to invite other members of CoR, you can post the invitation to CYBCOM, another google group that CoR members use for general discussions and various announcement.
Many thanks; with best regards - Jason
Dear Jason and the other CoR members,I apologize for the long silence, it was due to illness and family problems.I am glad to announce that on December 7-8, the Financial University in Moscow is holding the next International Conference-Biennale "Systems Analysis in Economics" (SAE-2022). This is our traditional December conference, which alternates with "Alexander Bogdanov's Systems World" conference. As always, we will be glad to see foreign participants. Understanding the difficulties associated with visiting Russia under the sanctions, we hope for the full use of the online format. The call for papers is attached. It can be sent to anyone who might be interested.The working language of the Conference is Russian. But within the framework of the Conference, the methodological discussion “Systems Approach as a Way of Humanity in the Complex World” will be held in English. The agenda for this discussion (see attached file) is developing the "Critical Systems Thinking and the Management of Complexity" section topic. I moderated it with Mike C. Jackson at WOSC-2021 Congress. Then the section included several individual presentations, but this time we chose the discussion format.We invite you to take part in the discussion on December 7th from 11 to 13 EST (from 16 to 18 GMT). There is no registration fee.To participate, please, send your confirmation to my email (before Tuesday, December 6th 09.00 EST / 14.00 GMT) and tell me how to introduce you to other participants.Technical connection information will be sent to you in response to your email before the start of the Conference.Best wishes,Slava Maracha,Financial University,Moscow, Russia
Louis Kauffman
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<Methodological discussion 2022.12.07_Systems Approach as a Way of Humanity in the Complex World.pdf><SAE-2022_Call for Papers_edited.pdf>
Louis Kauffman
On Dec 4, 2022, at 6:31 PM, Viatcheslav Maratcha <mara...@yandex.ru> wrote:Dear Lou,Thank you very much for your prompt response! Please specify if you will be able to take part in the conversation on December 7th. If yes, write how to introduce you to other participants.We understand that it is difficult to get immediate answers to such questions. We tend to expand the questioning and deepen the systemic formulation of problems.I'm assuming a very simple discussion procedure. In the beginning, we allocate time for a small introduction, in the end - for summing up. And the rest of the time (approximately 1 hour 45 minutes) is divided into two parts devoted to two blocks of questions (1-3 and 4-7). In each of these two parts, all participants first speak "in a circle" (time limits will depend on the number of participants, but not less than 5 minutes), and then they can exchange brief remarks in the "question and answer" mode, critical remarks or reflective comments. During their presentations, participants can use the "board" - for example, showing prepared PPT slides or other materials.Best regards,Viacheslav (Slava) Maracha05.12.2022, 03:01, "Louis Kauffman" <lou...@gmail.com>:Dear Viacheslav,
These are important questions.We need an open discussion about them without push for immediate answers.Best,Lou Kauffman
On Dec 4, 2022, at 2:00 PM, Jason Hu <jasonth...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear cyberneticians and system thinkers, this is an invitation from our colleague Viacheslav Maratcha from Russia, with my replies, also two attachments. If you're interested in attending this discussion, please contact Viacheslav ( mara...@yandex.ru ) directly. Best regards - Jason