ASC Series Season 3#2 - Beyond the Distinction Between 1st Order and 2nd Order Cybernetics

[Adler Looks Jorge 蔡鷹達 - ASC]

American Society for Cybernetics invites you to

ASC Series Season 3#2

Beyond the Distinction Between 1st Order and 2nd Order Cybernetics

Oct 23, 2022 | 9:00 PDT, 12:00 EDT, 18:00 CEST

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Join us for a lively discussion of the distinction that has been a defining feature of the American Society for Cybernetics since at least 1974.

Abstract

This is an interactive panel discussion that asks the questions: Has the distinction between 1st and 2nd order cybernetics run its course, now sufficiently embedded in our cybernetic practice and thought to move on? That is, is the practice of cybernetics self-aware, explicitly embedding responsibility (and, at least implicitly, ethical considerations) when doing whatever we do? Even if not yet sufficient, should we nudge ourselves in new directions anyway?  What’s next?

Participants:

Tom Scholte, University of British Columbia
Claudia Westermann, Xi’an Jiaotong-Liverpool University
Howard Silverman, Willamette University
Mark Johnson, University of Manchester
(Im)Moderator: Larry Richards, Indiana University East

Papers / Links:

For background information, see the Wikipedia page on Second Order Cybernetics

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ASC Speaker Series Team

American Society for Cybernetics

http://asc-cybernetics.org/

[Borislav Harihari]

Hi all,

Answering the question about distinction of 1st and 2nd order cybernetics has no sense because there is no distinction.

Cybernetics was "invented" by Ashby and cybernetics as term was authorized by Wiener. 

Following Peter Asaro, cybernetics historian, first concepts about cybernetics were put together by Ashby in 1940 on the basis of Cannon's concept of homeostasis.

Ignorancy of H. von Foerster about general physiology and all in all ignorancy about how Living beings could function made confussion of World format by forming 2nd order cybernetics what sure is not. It's not a kind of upgrade to Wieners Cybernetics and it's sure not something more. Everything what is to be known about the basics of cybernetics is in Ashby's and Wieners work.

H.von Foerster was co-worker of Ashby and there is probably where he got acquanted with Ashby's cybernetics. But the problem is that H.von Foerster was not equiped with necessary knowledge to understand how living beings really function. 

Ashby was psychiatrist well acquanted with basic functiong of Living beings (human). What exactly H.von Foerster knew about Living beings?

Wiener was quite explicit what is Cybernetics :

"Any complete textbook on cybernetics should contain a thorough detailed discussion of homeostastic processes /.../ However this book is rather an introduction to the subject … the theory of homeostatic processes involve rather too detailed a knowledge of general physiology…".

So using general physiology is necessary to understand how living beings function and that was what H.von Foerster didn't have. Beside that "Steersman" is performing goal directed behavior in different circumstances showing clear "error-correcting" activity. Such an "error correcting" process is done by any Living being even by 4 bilion years old organism like bacteria.

So there is no doubt what is cybernetics except of adding that whatever is happening in Living beings can be transffered to machines.

If I'm not mistaking Heylighen is asking himself probably for 20 years what next. And the same question we see here. There is no next in cybernetics of 2nd order because everything is included in cybernetics of 1st order if you understand it properly.

Maybe you could watch video about upgrade of cybernetics through work of greatest Cyberneticians of all times (Wiener, Ashby, Maturana, Powers) who used mostly scientific means to understand how Living beings function and how mechanisms of control can be transffered to machines. That's what cybernetics is about and that's what is next...

https://youtu.be/AL9XbEbynG8

I'm not from english speaking area and my interpretation of my presentation is quite bad. So I attached presentation. 

Boris Hartman

V V tor., 18. okt. 2022 ob 19:55 je oseba Adler Looks Jorge 蔡鷹達 - ASC <ad...@asc-cybernetics.org> napisala:

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