Re: [T-PAG] Re: Rebranding chronology

[Py Wong]

Let me see whether I understand this.

Singam is proposing Tindak 2.0 as the coordinator of PACA Net that will enable affiliation by any body, party or entity so that they can tap into our training materials and if required, for their trainees to be accredited. 

There is a strong preference by our members to retain the Tindak Malaysia brand name. If Tindak 2.0 was set up as an NGO to deal with other groups but leaving the original Tindak Malaysia as it is, would that be acceptable?

Reminder: Before you hit the "Send" button, scroll down to the bottom and trim off the hanging threads please.

py

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:36 PM, SV Singam <sin...@tindakmalaysia.com> wrote:

Gan,

Suresh has already announced that he won't be doing training for a while. I too will not be calling for any training sessions nor entertaining training requests. However that should not stop those still gung-ho about training to go right ahead. It's still (within our circles) a free country. :-)

But we must ask ourselves, what we are doing and why. The most obvious answer is - there were clearly not enough PACABA in GE13 so we'd better start preparing now. And that's a great stable door solution.

I am looking at the next level of the problem. I recognise the reality that, just by ourselves, we (by whatever brand we identify ourselves) cannot train enough PACABA nor can we achieve the level of deployment penetration that is necessary to achieve a high degree of Saluran coverage. And that was what took me to the reality that we need to move ourselves upstream and move the training downstream.

I visualise ourselves as no longer just PACABA trainers. We must become the facilitators who drive a nationwide exercise to train and deploy PACABA. And we must tap the large number of people who have already served as PACABA in GE13 to become the means through which our training is delivered. These are the people who have had hands-on experience with how the KTM and SPR officers bully and coerce or ignore the PACABA. Some of them would also have seen how TM trained PACABA were better geared to cope with these challenges. These are people who don't need any convincing.

Unfortunately, many of these PACABA have party affiliations and may face difficulty with joining TindakMalaysia. So instead of fighting the parties over this trivial matter, I have proposed that we offer a solution which does not threaten egos within the party.

I proposed to offer PACA Net powered by Tindak 2.0 to any person or party interested in PACABA training and deployment. PACA Net membership is NOT Tindak Malaysia membership.

PACA Net will be made available to any person who registers on the network. Membership will give them access to our training materials and programmes which they can download and apply to their own training activities. We can also offer skill assessment and certification. Where they ask for it, we give trainer training. We can also develop and conduct workshops, gameshops and the like to help their members retain interest and sharpen skills.

I have proposed that State Facilitators be appointed (by any competent party, and that includes us) who will guide the various PACABA groups in their state and aim towards preparing Penyelaras for each Kawasan Parlimen and Ketua PACABA for each Daerah Mengundi. These Ketua PACABA will become responsible to recruit enough PACABA to cover the Saluran in their Daerah. The Penyelaras Parlimen will become the person who negotiates with the RO to make sure reasonable instructions are given to the KTM

And that is where the rebranding came from. Of course we can still keep the same name. but we must then convince paranoid politicians that we are now doing different things and that they are in no way threatened. Possibly rebranding can make it easier. Or not.

We can even continue to do the same old things that we have been doing and hope to achieve a better level of success the next time around. That's the beautiful thing about democracy.

BTW I am no longer taking the poll so don't worry about campaigning during polling. If the PACA Net idea is compelling enough, those interested can take it forward.

Cheers.

Singam.

On 21/05/2013 3:32 PM, KLGan wrote:

... looks like campaigning during poll, I hope SPR got no hands on this one...

my vote is to remain as it is...

the logic is, if it is not broken, why repair?

Tindak Malaysia is already an established brand and known to both friends and foes. 

Whether re-branding or not, whats more important is we keep doing what we do best. One more thing, in PY's own word..."TM is after all an illegal organisation...", I am not sure if that status is changed now.. :-)

So, the most important question for me is, "When Is The Next PACA Training?" ... :-)

On 21 May 2013 14:26, SV Singam <sin...@tindakmalaysia.com> wrote:

Thus far, I had actually spent very little time on this rebranding exercise. Surely a lot less time than I would have spent ranting.

But the interesting turn of events has persuaded me to study the curious behaviour of this group, as captured in the following chart.


This shows the responses to my question about rebranding. There was a surge of positive response in the first 9 hours. After a short pause, positive responses continued to come in. The absence of further response led me to believe that those who would speak up were almost entirely in favour of the proposal.

Then, shortly after 72 hours, there was one negative response and that seems to have triggered a series of "nay" reactions. So now the question is, will those who refrained from speaking up until now come forward? And which way will they vote?

The more important question is, had a deadline of 72 hours been set for this poll, would all those nay reactions have come sooner?

And the final question is, considering that the Ayes still outnumber the Nays, shall we proceed with the rebranding?

Remember, arguments against rebranding were mostly presented in the last 72 hours. The rationale of the original proposal has probably been forgotten by now.

So is it right to once again explain the background behind the proposal to rebrand? Or does that amount to campaigning during the poll?

Singam.

On 21/05/2013 11:15 AM, J. Suresh Kumaran wrote:

Tindak Malaysia has Facebook right? why not start a survey there and ask who wants to rebrand and who doesn`t.

Yes, to some, who ask is the one needs to get it done, but i`m no admin of Tindak Malaysia FB, so, to the admin, start the survey and post it there. Give it a week, and see how much wants it and not.

No need to write long annoying like or no like about this, we got bigger game play instead going around with the name change.

J. Suresh, +6016 221 9996

“Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything.”
― Joseph Stalin

THINK GREEN. Please consider the environment before printing this email.  REDUCE. REUSE. RECYCLE. REPAIR.

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 11:04 AM, william arul <wa...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Why is so much energy focused on a name change? So what is wrong with Tindak Malaysia anyway? Was TM's tasks ever defined to remain in any kind of boundary? If there was no boundary, then what ever new tasks that TM takes on just fills the void that might have existed before. GE13 I am sure would have identified for all of us all the areas in which Tindak can contribute to. Isn't it more important at this point to once and for all identify the total deliverables of Tindak Malaysia and just go on from there?

Already as it is as much as Tindak's training is thorough it is evident the political parties may have their own way of doing things and many have recently been sent in to do PACA work after only an hour and a half or two of training. In all reality, for the basic PACA work 3 hours at most is all that is necessary if good videos and power points are used to give a better visual to new volunteers. Of course there is also the need for thoroughly trained people who can lead at constituency level if not Ketua PACABA level. But the sheer numbers that might be required during a General Election inevitably means we have to rely on last minute volunteers for whom just a basic training might all that can be afforded. These need to be pondered and training material that include videos and power points should be designed and made widely available. Training does not have to include political messages of any kind. At this point I think we can take it as understood.

We can also assist in designing a system for Political parties to use for the administration and management of the entire PACABA exercise. In Kelana Jaya the PKR division had already taken on this task and people appointed to administer from over a year before parliament was dissolved. They did the work on the basis that they were responsible for both the State Assembly seat of Seri Setia as well as the Parliamentary seat of Kelana Jaya (both of which were contested by PKR candidates)  which also encompassed State Seat of Subang Jaya which was a DAP seat.  DAP took care of their seat, while PKR their "seats".  PAS helped PKR take care of all logistics and manpower for some of the Tempat Mengundi Parliamentary PACAs for Subang Jaya as well as the DUN and Parliamentary volunteers for some of the Seri Setia Tempat Mengundis.  It did not matter to the team that for Kelana Jaya a new candidate might be "parachuted" in. You got to then contend with the politics in the place with volunteers suddenly leaving and so on. There are a lot of other permutations. How should this be best done? I see opportunities for Tindak to work out a system for all parties to follow.

But all this is open for discussion of course.

William

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Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 07:04:27 +0800

Subject: Re: [T-PAG] Re: Rebranding chronology

From: amylee...@gmail.com
To: T-...@googlegroups.com

If not necessary, to maintain will be my first choice.  This is because people know Tindak Malaysia in the marketing right now, any new name will create confusion, so my answer if NO if we can.

Amy

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 9:44 PM, Judy Won <won...@gmail.com> wrote:

I voted & spoke out against he change earlier. the reason is similar to Chak. Email kept bouncing back. So my vote again is a definite 'no'

Judy

On 20 May 2013 13:11, Maria Yu <mari...@yahoo.com> wrote:

is there a need to rebrand?

 

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From: Micisu <mic...@gmail.com>
To: "T-...@googlegroups.com" <T-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [T-PAG] Re: Rebranding chronology

Agree with NgCN

Sent from my iPhone

On 20 May 2013, at 07:24, ChakNgoon Ng <chakng...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have hesitated to add my opinion in this debate because I thought that name change was a frivolous matter. Probably the great majority of us do not really care much about it because there are more substantive issues at hand to devote our time and attention to it.

My first question on this matter is what the need is to change the name. What is wrong with the present name? Has TindakMalaysia not done well and therefore built up a solid reputation? If so, a name change is contrary to good sense. 

You can count this as a "No" to name change.

NgCN


 

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 2:20 AM, robert cheok <rob....@gmail.com> wrote:
1. Specify the amount of time people have to debate/discuss the matter and make considerations

2. Specify the time and period eligible voters can cast their vote

The steering committee should also decide what represents a quorum.

On Monday, May 20, 2013 12:18:41 AM UTC+8, SV Singam wrote:

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 2:50 AM, Albert Ng <alb...@gmail.com> wrote:

(Not sure if my previous email got through since it bounced off a few groups.)

You get to see what others voted and why they voted. The flaw with this is:
- when people see the trend going one direction, they are hesitant to speak the contrary
- when somebody says the contrary, those that were quiet before speak up

My take on this, is that rebranding has its costs. What is the new URL? Do your email addresses change? Is it per...@tindak2.0.com? (The URL would be 0.com.)

Going from BERSIH to BERSIH 2.0, the URL is http://www.bersih.org. So is Tindak 2.0's new URL going to be http://www.tindak.com? Somebody in the Philippines has already bought the domain: http://whois.domaintools.com/tindak.com

How will people who know us as Tindak 2.0, know to type http://www.tindakmalaysia.com?

On the plus side, Google already leads "Tindak" and "Tindak 2.0" to TindakMalaysia.  However, if you use some old browser, typing "tindak" in the address bar would go to tindak.com.

We might have too many brands on hand - Malaysians4Change, Tindak4Change, TindakMalaysia, Tindak 2.0, Malaysian Electoral Reform Programme, PACABATraining, PACA Net. (Googling PACA Net will return an unexpected result on top, and pacanet.com is taken!)

If there is anything GE13 has taught us, is that dilution is dangerous. So I would vote for it to be called TindakMalaysia. However if we have a "external" program then I would vote for it to be called something other than "PACA Net" for the above reason.

- Albert

Folks, I would like to share with you the chronology (time sequence) of the proposed rebranding to offer perspective.

Looks like we were nicely on track until noon on 19/5. What happened? Did the planets shift?

Anyhow, more important is, what do we do now? Wait for more votes? Until when?

Or should we wait until some minimum votes have been received? What is that magic number?

After all, if we want to promote a democracy, we should be the first ones to practice democratic principles. But let us not end up going in circles.

Singam.

Chronology follows...

0516-10:34    I explained the rational behind the proposed rebranding and sought feedback. Responses time-stamped below...

0516-11:35    I like Tindak 2.0
0516-11:51    Tindak already imprinted - Tindka2.0
0516-11:55    Tindak 2.0 or TM 2.0?
0516-11:55    Yes, I like Tindak 2.0
0516-12:12    Tindak 2.0 or TindakMalaysia 2.0?
0516-12:18    Long story, no vote
0516-12:36    Tindak 2.0
0516-12:36    Response to long story using proposed brand of Tindak 2.0
0516-12:51    Tindak ---> PRU
0516-12:52    Tindak 2.0
0516-12:56    Tindak 2.0
0516-13:20    Tindak 2.0
0516-14:05    Tindak 2.0
0516-16:48    Tindak 2.0
0516-17:07    Tindak 2.0
0516-18:36    I sought the consensus of the Steering Committee on adopting Tindak 2.0 as our new brand
0516-19:04    Tindak 2.0

0517-14:53    Tindak 2.0 okayish, maybe Tindak Without Borders, maybe Tindak For All, maybe TINDAK as acronym
0517-23:08    My thanks to all who participated, announcement of the new brand - Tindak 2.0 and sneak preview of strategy

0518-00:38    Sokong
0518-01:19    Support
0518-02:42    Short condescending story, no vote
0518-03:00    Jolly good, all for it
0518-06:48    Agree with Tindak 2.0 (and PACA Net)
0518-07:30    Look forward to Tindak 2
0518-07:35    Great, sounds like a plan
0518-13:05    Agreed (brand or strategy?)
0519-12:13    Why 2.0 and not 1.0? Follow the year.
0519-14:36    Agree with previous detractors - why 2.0 or 1.2? Why need to rebrand?
0519-15:45    TINDAK MAJU MALAYSIA - TMM
0519-15:54    Tindak 14.0 Lol
0519-16:20    Tindak Malaysia then?
0519-16:29    Tindak bagi Impian Nasional utk Demokrasi Atas Keadilan
0519-16:45    Statement on rebranding, choice still Tindak 2.0
0519-16:46    Tindak 2.0 in Chinese don't sound like brand
0519-19:58    Why change?
0519-20:26    Tindak Malaysia ~/ (with a Pass Tick)