Lecture 6, Question 1: Character of Early Period Sonatas

[Jill_Curtis Institute]

The two sonatas we examined in this lecture  (Op. 2, No. 1 and Op. 10, No. 2) are extremely different in character—possibly as different as any two early period sonatas.  Listening to them, do you find any meaningful similarities between them? Put another way: are there any overarching concerns one finds in the early period sonatas, regardless of the specific character of the sonata at hand?

[keno...@gmail.com]

Beethoven liked to write music that was difficult to play! The Viennese amateurs must have been heroic musicians in those days.

BTW I think the lecture mentions that the Mannheim rocket was only used by Beethoven in an Op.1 Trio and in the Op. 2 No. 1 Sonata. But Beethoven also used it as the mysterioso opening of the Scherzo from his 5th Symphony, oddly enough. In fact he wrote out his theme adjacent to the essentially identical Mannheim rocket that opens the finale of Mozart's 40th Symphony in his sketchbooks, so he was quite aware of it. This was noted by Sir George Grove in about 1896... ;-)

[Doris Fine]

The two sonatas seem to be experiments in trying out different courses, or menus for a full, varied and nourishing meal. It's as if he takes certain ingredients -- musical materials--and sees what he can do with them to produce a significant main course, accompanied by side dishes to relax the appetite as one waits for the next piece. He is also trying to demonstrate how the initial ingredients can be transformed and yet retain some of the flavor or character of their first presentation.

The two sonatas are as different as any two different meals -- one more conventional, a sort of standard upscale hotel variety, the other from a lighter type of cuisine.  

In each, Beethoven is experimenting with how to use his materials, drawing from traditional practices but seeking variety and aiming in each case for a work that is complete and satisfying in itself. He is demonstrating his musical skills, showing how ingenious he can be, and also creating a most satisfying piece of work.

[elva.g...@gmail.com]

This question is a hard for me because I can't always "hear" what Prof Biss is wanting us to hear; although I am getting better. Also, discovering the structure is new to me. But here goes.

Opus 2 which is extremely beautiful, follows the sonata form a little more than Opus 10 does. Both of them have fits and starts which are used to great effect in building tension.

[Curtis Institute of Music Online Forums]

Hi, thanks for pointing that out regarding the Mannheim Rocket! As with many historical composition techniques, there is some subjectivity as to whether composers like Beethoven were intentionally referencing the Mannheim orchestral tradition in any specific instance, and the line between what constitutes a Mannheim Rocket and a simple upwards arpeggio is, again, somewhat subjective. But perhaps Professor Biss simply forgot to mention the third movement of Symphony No. 5. Thank you for your insights!

-Emily, Curtis Teaching Staff

[jack....@gmail.com]

Just my personal opinion, but I think if one plays all three sonatas in one sitting, the No. 2 of 3 in both cases comes cross as a humorous interlude.

This is different from Opus 31 in which the second of three sonatas is the most dramatic and powerful.

[sgeb...@gmail.com]

Once again, my answer will betray my lack of background in music theory. For me, the difference between Beethoven's late sonatas and Op. 2, No. 1 or Op. 10, No. 2 - and therefore the similarity between these earlier sonatas - is the way the music affects me, and the aftereffects that are left behind.

These two early sonatas are wonderful to hear. After the lectures this week I can appreciate the innovative aspects and admire the gift of the composer, but when I listen to the late sonatas I feel completely bound by the music and (thanks to years of meditation practice) sink into my centre, fully aware of the sound and feeling simultaneously expansive. This still, alert, bliss remains for quite a while afterwards. The same cannot be said with the early sonatas, very enjoyable though they are.

As was mentioned in the lectures, the early works demonstrate skill of composition, technical expertise, wonderful musicality, quirkiness, humour etc., but they seem to have a large mental component, whereas the late works seem to flow out of the depth of the soul with firm confidence, without any obvious striving, thereby enabling the sensitive listener to contact his/her own soul.

[kaha...@gmail.com]

In my opinion, these sonatas stay very close to Haydn's music, because of their musical language and many "tricks" used to delude listeners. Of course, these sonatas are great example of Beethoven's experimentations but I thinkhe had already well prepared ground for it.

[kaha...@gmail.com]

As far as I know, Beethoven despised Viennese amateurs and his aspiration wasn't to write music accesible for them but for the higher aims, so probably they never touched it. :)
Very interesting comment about Mannheim rocket:) Haha - I really like this term:)

[Michael Dolan]

One thing the two sonatas have in common is being relatively short.  This did make it easier to listen to them multiple times.

Both use  traditional forms while also challenging the limits of the genre.  They seem to me to be continuing the sonatas of Haydn and Mozart, and not yet distinctly Beethoven.

[kmus...@gullotta.it]

Le analogie che si possono trovare tra queste due Sonate vanno ricercate, secondo me, nell’estrema esuberanza del materiale tematico, ritmico, melodico, armonico. È come se Beethoven volesse mettere il proprio “marchio identificativo” alla struttura della Sonata che era stata portata ad altissimi livelli da Mozart, Haydn, Clementi e che si manifesta anche in novità apportate alla tradizione: i quattro tempi in cui è articolata l’op.2, il ricorso al contrappunto nell’op.10.

[wrob...@gmail.com]

Regarding the notion of music as language, Beethoven's exploration of the interrogative phrase and response (not in the form of an answer) make sense to me. The piano is particularly well suited to nuanced self-inquiry. Might these early sonatas be structured specifically to open the form so it will match the instrument's potential for articulating the enormous emotional range of Beethoven's internal dialogue?

[Vivien Naomi Lee]

I don't know if this is anything meaningful that I picked up but I felt like.. Beethoven does really like using turns with pauses. And it's something I felt was in both of these two pieces, especially in the first movement.

Although Op. 2 was perhaps more predictable in terms of structure, I found Op. 10 quite hard to anticipate, and kinda cheeky, leading you almost to a certain destination and then deciding to make a sudden turn elsewhere. Op. 10 does seem to have a greater deal of spontaneity and improvisation kinda feel.

If there are any overarching concerns.... I guess I would probably identify it as the need for rather neat chord changes, but without much storytelling element as compared to the later sonatas.

[edelcor...@gmail.com]

They are both completely in F, from start to finish. And I would dare speculate they can be seen as opposites to one another; 3 vs 4 movements, character ...

And given the jovial nature of opus 10 no 2 I would dare speculate ...

10 no2 / 2 no 1

It dows seems fitting that even the order of publishing were a (rather cerebral joke hinting at the opposite character despite being built out of the same fabric.

[Shannon Thomas]

Both sonatas have a certain brightness to them, particularly in their first movements. They also show Beethoven's fascination with time as both have frequent stops and moments that suddenly speed up and slow down. 

[kristinoh...@gmail.com]

I quite enjoyed hearing these early sonatas as they sound so very different from Beethoven's later works. This is also the first time I've heard either of these two sonatas.
I found they both sounded similar in that they lack the intensity of Beethoven's later sonatas. With respect to their differences, I found Op. 10, No 2 more thoughtful, especially in the second, menuet movement. I really wasn't expecting the rapid-fire, whimsy of the non-fugue, third movement, despite the lecture! I hesitate to say that if I heard either of these pieces without knowing the composer I would have a hard time attributing them to Beethoven. While not overly familiar with Hadyn's works, I would say this is similar to Mozart with it's light, airy quality, as well as the multitude of higher notes.

[skus...@gmail.com]

There are some similar attitudes like that he leaves some questions unanswered with a long silence but then that is a part of the eras convention, particularly of his teacher Haydn. There are switches to mediant tonalities that lead to later broadening harmonic horizons. Still the works are more different than they are alike.

[Ian Lipke]

The two pieces do not sound or look the same and in both cases one doesn't doubt the quality. The humour, however, is a very individualistic thing. I think Beethoven's humour requires a deep grounding in Beethoven and in music generally.

[robertg...@gmail.com]

Nothing really obvious or meaningful. Both are traditional sonata, with exception Op. 10 No. 2's alteration in development/recapitulation. They both have first and second theme. They both have the exposition, development, and recapitulation part. They both are multi-movement works. Perhaps, an overarching concern one might find in the early period sonatas is that the first movement was always written in a fast tempo, or at least not slow or andante, with exception Op. 13. 

[George Konstantinidis]

As it usually happens with Great Artists,what is common in these two sonatas(i would add his whle work) is his urge to see and describe details unseen and untold by the previous Masters.He loved drama as much as comedy and he was standing much higher as an observer forom both, than any of his fellow men,as to be able to play,be innovative,surprise and even overwhelm his listeners with his musical adventures.I think,he was so powerfull as spirit,not to idendify with any of his difficulties,but instead to confront them as challenges in his art,to show us that Creativity stands in a higher level than obstacles,and the aesthetic victory of creating a great work of art beats time and all human weakness and even mortality.At least its how i feel about him.

[Gegege no Kitarou]

Beethoven's sonata op.2 and op.10 are I guess the different experimentations that Beethoven undertook. This does hear completely different from the late sonatas (e.g. op.110), even though it's the same composer, experimenting with different styles. 

Both these sonatas (op.2 no.1 and op.10 no.2) break the 'rules' of the sonata in different ways; whether it may be repeating the development in a strange key, or creating the biggest 'joke'- making a false ending and carrying the listener off guard. 

However, as a personal opinion, I feel as though the op.2 no.1 sonata has more weight, or the anger in Beethoven, whilst the op.10 no.2 sonata has a more cheery, mischievous Beethoven :) 

[Holly Anderson]

Beethoven's imitation of human language is common in both but presented differently; In Op. 2, No. 1 we see this as an interrogatory questioning, filled with anxiety and tension; In Op. 10, No. 2, we hear Beethoven's emulation of people trying to humour each other.