Lecture 5, Question 2: Share striking differences between an early and a late sonata.

[Jill_Curtis Institute]

Comparing Op. 7 and Op. 109

Listen again to Op. 7 and then to Op. 109. (If you are short of time, just listen to the last movement of each.) One could argue that they are different in almost every respect, but which differences strike you as most significant, most meaningful?

[hartma...@gmail.com]

This is an easy question :)
I can play op 7, but I can not play op 109. Of course, this is due to the difference of the instruments that Beethoven expected his pieces to be played on.
But I tried the last movement of op 109 already 7 times and I failed 7 times. And I will try it until I will finally be able to play it. I have listened to young piano students who did not have any trouble, but for me the fugue is difficult to get in my head. It is not a question of technical feasibility. It is a matter of thouroughly understanding the structure of the music.

BTW, at some special occasions I play the second movement of op 109 for myself and have the sound of Fritz Gulda in my ears when I listened to him when I was 20.

[hartma...@gmail.com]

Sorry. Correction to my last answer. I mistook 109 for 106! My error.
I would also have to write something about 109 but it would be a different text :)
Once again, sorry!

[Ken]

If later Beethoven sonatas are so different from early sonata form, why even call them sonatas?  Similarly, what structure is still being retained to still call them sonatas?  

[evelyn...@gmail.com]

The biggest difference that I can see
a. 5 tempo changes.
b. the performance instructions such as leggiermente, cantabile, ma non troppo etc.

It seems that Beethoven had given more specific direction to the performer to play the variations a certain way, i.e. perhaps as he would have played them himself indicating a more personal approach to performance than in the past. But perhaps it is also an extension of the trend that composers such as Mozart and Beethoven had started making sure that performers do not play with abandonment per Baroque performance practice. Setting the trend of for composers to be more directive e.g. Debussy many changes of tempi and more directions perhaps?

[kmus...@gullotta.it]

Le differenze più significative potrebbero ravvisarsi nell’essere emblema della simmetria (op.7) e dell’asimmetria (op.109) ma con un filo che le lega: la ricchezza delle idee melodiche, ritmiche, tematiche, timbriche.

[Vivien Naomi Lee]

Op. 7 is so action-packed, and utterly exciting. It really pushes you through the music in such a forceful manner. Which I really like. But it's kinda typical of the Classical style.

Op. 109, is almost like an anthem or farewell, or lamentation. And this is definitely a lot more Romantic than Op. 7. the mood is just really different for 109, and feels much more mature and thick with life experiences. I kinda feel like crying after listening to this. It's almost with every note, I could feel his sadness and his reflections. Not sure if I am being too emotional here. But I do like the melancholic nature of the piece. there's some chromatic, dissonant action here, more than Op. 7 - kinda bittersweet.

[twisted....@gmail.com]

After listening to the last movements of Op. 7 and Op. 109 back to back what struck me is that, while they have some similarities (both have slow moments and moments that ramp up), 109 feels like it's taking its time and savoring the moment. That isn't to say that Op. 7's movement sounds rushed or anything like that, rather that 7's movement feels spritely, especially in comparison to the more somber feel of 109. While Op. 7's movement has its own beauty, for me, that somber and reflective quality makes Op. 109 a more emotional and meaningful experience.

[kristinoh...@gmail.com]

Op 109 feels like a thoughtful and romantic piece. As if the older Beethoven is savouring his career and celebrating his love for music and the piano. It is unhurried and feels like he is no longer out to prove himself.
In Op 7 Beethoven still seems to be struggling with his musical identity and form. He has so much energy and enthusiasm. He seems to really want to highlight his skill as a pianist. It feels more technical.

[Barry]

I felt that some parts of the last movement of op. 109 seemed more beautiful and emotional than the last movement of op. 7.  I could hear a little dissonance in op. 109 but not in op. 7.

[robertg...@gmail.com]

The atmosphere, absolutely. Their respective psychological experience that is to be brought to the listener are totally different. While the op. 7 is stately, op. 109 feels more dreamy and liberating. Both has their own magical touch, but in their own way. 

[W]

No.7 sounds more clean and thus more classical? Motives and phrases are clear. 

Phrases in no.109 are longer and more closely packed, one follow another, sometimes overlapping? The continuity makes it more romantic. 

[Don Potter]

Probably the most obvious difference is hat Op. 7 has four movements and Op. 109 has three movements.  Opus 7 seems to be a much more traditional sonata while Op. 109 is much more innovative especially with the third movement's set of variations. The innovations in the variations include a stream of consciousness variation (Var. IV) and a fugal variation (Var. V)

[Holly Anderson]

I think, from what I can hear, the difference is Beethoven's confidence and his daring to exist unapologetically when daring the conventions of his predecessors. In Op. 7 you can certainly hear some kind of push for complexity rather than a burst of innovation found within himself.