Cucumber JVM vs Cucumber- ruby

[Vamsi]

Dear cukes, 

I would soon be adopting cucumber for  testing / creating a test frame work  for an application   which is built using java, java script & a bit of scala too so  which combination would suit better for testing

Cucumber with ruby  or Cucumber with Java 

 The tests would focus mainly on testing the  web APIs ...

Would greatly appreciate your suggestions based on your personal experience .. 

Many thanks, 

Vamsi

[Oscar Rieken]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Vamsi <vamsi.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear cukes, 

I would soon be adopting cucumber for  testing / creating a test frame work  for an application   which is built using java, java script & a bit of scala too so  which combination would suit better for testing

Cucumber with ruby  or Cucumber with Java 

 The tests would focus mainly on testing the  web APIs ...

Which ever one your team feel comfortable using. imo

 

Would greatly appreciate your suggestions based on your personal experience .. 

Many thanks, 

Vamsi

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[Vamsi]

Thank you  Oscar 

Which ever one your team feel comfortable using

The team is new to both ruby &  java so we are game for anything however, I want us to choose something which would compliment testing the application that is built using javascript and java heavily ..

Vamsi

[Paolo Ambrosio]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Vamsi <vamsi.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear cukes,
> I would soon be adopting cucumber for testing / creating a test frame work
> for an application which is built using java, java script & a bit of scala

Is JavaScript used server side or client side?

> too so which combination would suit better for testing
> Cucumber with ruby or Cucumber with Java

If you want to do black-box testing, you should probably consider who
is going to write the step definitions, as they should be comfortable
using that language. In this case the language used to develop the
application does not really matter.

If you are doing white-box testing, perhaps need to consider also the
language the application is written in, as you might be calling some
components directly.

Either way it is really important that everyone agrees on the language used.

> The tests would focus mainly on testing the web APIs ...

With Web APIs do you mean something like REST/SOAP?

> Would greatly appreciate your suggestions based on your personal experience
> ..

If developers are going to write step definitions, using the same
language would help decreasing context switch times between test and
application. If testers are going to write them, then context switch
is not a problem.

> Many thanks,
> Vamsi


Hope it helps,

Paolo

[Vamsi]

Thanks  Paolo

Is JavaScript used server side or client side?

its going to be on server side 

With Web APIs do you mean something like REST/SOAP?

its REST

If developers are going to write step definitions, using the same
language would help decreasing context switch times between test and
application. If testers are going to write them, then context switch
is not a problem.

 The tests/step def would be written by testers who are currently manual testers & are taking their big step towards test automation 

> Many thanks,
> Vamsi

[Oscar Rieken]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Vamsi <vamsi.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks  Paolo

Is JavaScript used server side or client side?

its going to be on server side 

With Web APIs do you mean something like REST/SOAP?

its REST

If developers are going to write step definitions, using the same
language would help decreasing context switch times between test and
application. If testers are going to write them, then context switch
is not a problem.

 The tests/step def would be written by testers who are currently manual testers & are taking their big step towards test automation 

if they understand java or any language that might be your best bet since the devs would be able to help you. In my experience if you know ruby and need to get a testing team up to speed fast, it has been easier to do with ruby.  Either way while you are building your framework I would focus on making it very easy to read and use. this helps in the long run because then you really dont need to teach new testers how to code rather you just teach them your DSL and the pattern you have chosen to drive your steps 

[Stephen Abrams]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Vamsi <vamsi.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would probably choose Cucumber-JVM, and if team wants to write tests in Ruby would write step-defs in JRuby. This would provide easy ability to use Java-implemented domain classes and factories. 

Many thanks, 

Vamsi

[George Dinwiddie]

Stephen,

On 7/29/13 5:39 PM, Stephen Abrams wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Vamsi <vamsi.m...@gmail.com
> <mailto:vamsi.m...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Dear cukes,
> I would soon be adopting cucumber for testing / creating a test
> frame work for an application which is built using java, java
> script & a bit of scala too so which combination would suit better
> for testing
> Cucumber with ruby or Cucumber with Java
> The tests would focus mainly on testing the web APIs ...
>
> Would greatly appreciate your suggestions based on your personal
> experience ..
>
> I would probably choose Cucumber-JVM, and if team wants to write tests
> in Ruby would write step-defs in JRuby. This would provide easy ability
> to use Java-implemented domain classes and factories.

I've often used Cucumber-Ruby under JRuby. This lets me write ruby step
definitions that can call the java code directly when desired. I prefer
ruby for writing the tests because it's quicker and less verbose. It can
be a nuisance switching back and forth between languages, though.

- George

--
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
* George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Stephen Abrams]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:20 PM, George Dinwiddie <li...@idiacomputing.com> wrote:

Stephen,

On 7/29/13 5:39 PM, Stephen Abrams wrote:

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Vamsi <vamsi.m...@gmail.com

<mailto:vamsi.mandapati@gmail.com>> wrote:

    Dear cukes,
    I would soon be adopting cucumber for  testing / creating a test
    frame work  for an application   which is built using java, java
    script & a bit of scala too so  which combination would suit better
    for testing
    Cucumber with ruby  or Cucumber with Java
      The tests would focus mainly on testing the  web APIs ...

    Would greatly appreciate your suggestions based on your personal
    experience ..

I would probably choose Cucumber-JVM, and if team wants to write tests
in Ruby would write step-defs in JRuby. This would provide easy ability
to use Java-implemented domain classes and factories.

I've often used Cucumber-Ruby under JRuby. This lets me write ruby step definitions that can call the java code directly when desired. I prefer ruby for writing the tests because it's quicker and less verbose. It can be a nuisance switching back and forth between languages, though.

Interesting. Is this the Cuke4Duke integration? My understanding was that Cucumber-JVM makes using JRuby easier than Cuke4Duke. My experiences with Jython/JRuby on Cucumber-JVM have been generally positive. 

 - George

--
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[Matt Wynne]

On 29 Jul 2013, at 16:23, Vamsi <vamsi.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

 The tests/step def would be written by testers who are currently manual testers & are taking their big step towards test automation 

I strongly advise you against doing this. I have seen many many teams and organisations do it, and I have rarely, if ever, seen it work out well.

Test automation is software development, and if you have amateur software developers doing it, you'll end up with poor automated tests. Eventually, those automated tests will be so slow to run and hard to maintain that you'll realise the ROI you get from them isn't worth it, and you'll give up.

Testers' skill is in finding new scenarios to break the code. Have testers concentrate on coming up with new scenarios and collaborating with developers to write them up in Gherkin. Leave the automation to the software developers. If you have manual testers who want to become software developers, then great: have them pair with software developers until they're fully skilled up and can work on the production source or the tests. But don't just leave them to bugger about with the test code without support from the developers. Because that says you don't really care about the quality of test code.

cheers,

Matt

--
http://mattwynne.net || https://twitter.com/mattwynne || http://the-cucumber-book.com || http://bddkickstart.com || http://www.relishapp.com

[Krishna Gundala]

As a Automation writer i agree with MATT which was really true.

 My suggestion would be, rather than trying a step to convert manual to automation tester, We use JBEHAVE using cucumber which helps to test your api.

This way Manual testers acna help in breaking the code and developers can write steps and methods for the scenarios.

[Vamsi]

Thank you Matt and Krishna ..

I agree with you  guys . My team will have  support from the dev team  to write the step defs and yeah its going to be a huge challenge but they are willing to learn coding & are very keen however my question here is , What do we choose to get them up and running quickly  Ruby or Java .. 

Java is a bit hard for testers with limited coding skills and ruby is kinda easy to pick  & we want to use cucumber for sure .. The application that we are building is in Java/ Java script ..

Thank you, 

Vamsi

[Krishna Gundala]

I prefer using cucumber using Java..

Since your team has senior dev team which is well established they can guide your testing team on this.

Learning a complete different language and  implementing it is quite a complex task.

[Rob Park]

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 1:52 AM, Stephen Abrams <Abrams....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:20 PM, George Dinwiddie <li...@idiacomputing.com> wrote:

Stephen,

On 7/29/13 5:39 PM, Stephen Abrams wrote:

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Vamsi <vamsi.m...@gmail.com

<mailto:vamsi.mandapati@gmail.com>> wrote:

    Dear cukes,
    I would soon be adopting cucumber for  testing / creating a test
    frame work  for an application   which is built using java, java
    script & a bit of scala too so  which combination would suit better
    for testing
    Cucumber with ruby  or Cucumber with Java
      The tests would focus mainly on testing the  web APIs ...

    Would greatly appreciate your suggestions based on your personal
    experience ..

I would probably choose Cucumber-JVM, and if team wants to write tests
in Ruby would write step-defs in JRuby. This would provide easy ability
to use Java-implemented domain classes and factories.

I've often used Cucumber-Ruby under JRuby. This lets me write ruby step definitions that can call the java code directly when desired. I prefer ruby for writing the tests because it's quicker and less verbose. It can be a nuisance switching back and forth between languages, though.

Interesting. Is this the Cuke4Duke integration? My understanding was that Cucumber-JVM makes using JRuby easier than Cuke4Duke. My experiences with Jython/JRuby on Cucumber-JVM have been generally positive. 

This may be a tangent, and if so feel free to change the subject, but what does it mean to use JRuby with Cucumber-JVM? 

Why does one do that?

And AFAIK, you just use Cucumber-Ruby like Cucumber-Ruby, but run with JRuby and you can get from features to your Java API without any need for a Cuke4Duke bridge. ??? 

[Stephen Abrams]

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Rob Park <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 1:52 AM, Stephen Abrams <Abrams....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:20 PM, George Dinwiddie <li...@idiacomputing.com> wrote:

Stephen,

On 7/29/13 5:39 PM, Stephen Abrams wrote:

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Vamsi <vamsi.m...@gmail.com

<mailto:vamsi.mandapati@gmail.com>> wrote:

    Dear cukes,
    I would soon be adopting cucumber for  testing / creating a test
    frame work  for an application   which is built using java, java
    script & a bit of scala too so  which combination would suit better
    for testing
    Cucumber with ruby  or Cucumber with Java
      The tests would focus mainly on testing the  web APIs ...

    Would greatly appreciate your suggestions based on your personal
    experience ..

I would probably choose Cucumber-JVM, and if team wants to write tests
in Ruby would write step-defs in JRuby. This would provide easy ability
to use Java-implemented domain classes and factories.

I've often used Cucumber-Ruby under JRuby. This lets me write ruby step definitions that can call the java code directly when desired. I prefer ruby for writing the tests because it's quicker and less verbose. It can be a nuisance switching back and forth between languages, though.

Interesting. Is this the Cuke4Duke integration? My understanding was that Cucumber-JVM makes using JRuby easier than Cuke4Duke. My experiences with Jython/JRuby on Cucumber-JVM have been generally positive. 

This may be a tangent, and if so feel free to change the subject, but what does it mean to use JRuby with Cucumber-JVM? 

Why does one do that? 

And AFAIK, you just use Cucumber-Ruby like Cucumber-Ruby, but run with JRuby and you can get from features to your Java API without any need for a Cuke4Duke bridge. ???  

I haven't tried using Cucumber-Ruby on JVM. I read this thread (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/cukes/KZ2U04UA6MM) a year ago and based on it decided to just use Cucumber-JVM, which is trivial to integrate into our Maven-managed projects - also excellent support in IntelliJ12. FWIW,  while I've experimented with JRuby step defs, I've mainly been interested in Cucumber-JVM for its Jython support - our qa engineers (all with software development backgrounds) write tests primarily in Python. 

 - George

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[Rob Park]

FWIW Cucumber-Ruby should have excellent support in IntelliJ too... although, I'm generally in RubyMine for Cucumber work.

And I do have a not-so-secret desire that Maven would just go away. ;-)

(Rake and/or Gradle are much better solutions IMO.) 

[aslak hellesoy]

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Rob Park <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 1:52 AM, Stephen Abrams <Abrams....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:20 PM, George Dinwiddie <li...@idiacomputing.com> wrote:

Stephen,

On 7/29/13 5:39 PM, Stephen Abrams wrote:

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Vamsi <vamsi.m...@gmail.com

<mailto:vamsi.mandapati@gmail.com>> wrote:

    Dear cukes,
    I would soon be adopting cucumber for  testing / creating a test
    frame work  for an application   which is built using java, java
    script & a bit of scala too so  which combination would suit better
    for testing
    Cucumber with ruby  or Cucumber with Java
      The tests would focus mainly on testing the  web APIs ...

    Would greatly appreciate your suggestions based on your personal
    experience ..

I would probably choose Cucumber-JVM, and if team wants to write tests
in Ruby would write step-defs in JRuby. This would provide easy ability
to use Java-implemented domain classes and factories.

I've often used Cucumber-Ruby under JRuby. This lets me write ruby step definitions that can call the java code directly when desired. I prefer ruby for writing the tests because it's quicker and less verbose. It can be a nuisance switching back and forth between languages, though.

Interesting. Is this the Cuke4Duke integration? My understanding was that Cucumber-JVM makes using JRuby easier than Cuke4Duke. My experiences with Jython/JRuby on Cucumber-JVM have been generally positive. 

This may be a tangent, and if so feel free to change the subject, but what does it mean to use JRuby with Cucumber-JVM? 

Why does one do that?

And AFAIK, you just use Cucumber-Ruby like Cucumber-Ruby, but run with JRuby and you can get from features to your Java API without any need for a Cuke4Duke bridge. ??? 

There seems be some confusion about what Cuke4Duke is.

Cuke4Duke is a defunkt project that isn't maintained anymore. It was the predecessor of Cucumber-JVM which was essentially Cucumber-Ruby running on JRuby with some addons that enabled people to write stepdefs and hooks in other JVM languages, thanks to the great cross-language interop on the JVM.

It sucked in many ways, so it was superseded by Cucumber-JVM, which still allows users to use 8 different JVM languages (including JRuby) but it no longer depends on Cucumber-Ruby. It's written almost entirely in Java. A small part is written in the various JVM languages it integrates with.

As a result, you can use Ruby and JavaScript with Cucumber-JVM (using the JRuby and Rhino interpreters respectively). However, you can also use Ruby with Cucumber-Ruby and JavaScript with Cucumber-JS (Node.js or browser).

I generally recommend the latter unless you have very special needs.

Aslak

 

 - George

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[Vladimir Sapozhnik]

Aslak, I believe the major question was not how to use Ruby on Cucumber-JVM or Cucumber-Ruby, but what framework to use Cucumber-JVM (with Java) or Cucumber-Ruby (with Ruby)? 

[Cukenewbie]

My team recently went through this, our debate was between specflow c#, as our application is built in .net vs ruby cucumber, since tester were the one writing step def we decided to use Ruby. I think ruby may be a better choice for testers with no dev background.  

[George Dinwiddie]

Stephen,

On 7/30/13 1:52 AM, Stephen Abrams wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:20 PM, George Dinwiddie
> <li...@idiacomputing.com <mailto:li...@idiacomputing.com>> wrote:
>
> Stephen,
>
>
> On 7/29/13 5:39 PM, Stephen Abrams wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Vamsi

> <vamsi.m...@gmail.com <mailto:vamsi.m...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:vamsi.mandapati@gmail.__com

No, this is Ruby Cucumber run under JRuby. This lets me write the step
definitions in ruby rather than java.

[Matt Wynne]

On 30 Jul 2013, at 23:03, Cukenewbie <bhupes...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, July 29, 2013 10:50:32 AM UTC-4, Vamsi wrote:

Dear cukes, 

I would soon be adopting cucumber for  testing / creating a test frame work  for an application   which is built using java, java script & a bit of scala too so  which combination would suit better for testing

Cucumber with ruby  or Cucumber with Java 

 The tests would focus mainly on testing the  web APIs ...

Would greatly appreciate your suggestions based on your personal experience .. 

Many thanks, 

Vamsi

My team recently went through this, our debate was between specflow c#, as our application is built in .net vs ruby cucumber, since tester were the one writing step def we decided to use Ruby. I think ruby may be a better choice for testers with no dev background.  

I'm going to bang this drum again.

Having people with no dev background writing test code is the wrong choice, whatever language they're using. Ruby might look superficially easy, but if you're doing any significant amount of testing, it will get just as hard as Java.

[Vamsi]

I'm going to bang this drum again.

Having people with no dev background writing test code is the wrong choice, whatever language they're using. Ruby might look superficially easy, but if you're doing any significant amount of testing, it will get just as hard as Java.

Well I agree with what you are saying here Matt but does that mean the testers should only write the tests and leave the automation  to a dev ? Then how can a team become cross functional & how will manual testers become automation QAs .. there should be a starting point. I know the tests are going to be of some poor quality initially but they will get better over the period time;  that is  what something  even you mentioned  in  your  cucumber text book that features/ tests  will evolve and you will have to refactor things from time to time ( based on your chapter 6 when cucumbers go bad ) pairing with a dev helps a tester to learn how to code and a dev would gain the knowledge of testing from the end user prospective ...

am I still missing something here Matt ?  

[George Dinwiddie]

Vamsi,

On 7/31/13 6:33 AM, Vamsi wrote:
>
> /I'm going to bang this drum again./
> /
> /
> /Having people with no dev background writing test code is the wrong

> choice, whatever language they're using. Ruby might look superficially
> easy, but if you're doing any significant amount of testing, it will get

> just as hard as Java./

>
> Well I agree with what you are saying here Matt but does that mean the
> testers should only write the tests and leave the automation to a dev ?
> Then how can a team become cross functional & how will manual testers
> become automation QAs .. there should be a starting point. I know the
> tests are going to be of some poor quality initially but they will get
> better over the period time; that is what something even you
> mentioned in your cucumber text book that features/ tests will
> evolve and you will have to refactor things from time to time ( based on
> your chapter 6 when cucumbers go bad ) pairing with a dev helps a tester
> to learn how to code and a dev would gain the knowledge of testing from
> the end user prospective ...

A tester pairing with a programmer is a great way to write the test
automation you need now, as well as mentor the testers in test
automation programming.

[Rob Park]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 8:10 AM, George Dinwiddie <li...@idiacomputing.com> wrote:

Vamsi,

On 7/31/13 6:33 AM, Vamsi wrote:

/I'm going to bang this drum again./
/
/
/Having people with no dev background writing test code is the wrong

choice, whatever language they're using. Ruby might look superficially
easy, but if you're doing any significant amount of testing, it will get

just as hard as Java./

Well I agree with what you are saying here Matt but does that mean the
testers should only write the tests and leave the automation  to a dev ?
Then how can a team become cross functional & how will manual testers
become automation QAs .. there should be a starting point. I know the
tests are going to be of some poor quality initially but they will get
better over the period time;  that is  what something  even you
mentioned  in  your  cucumber text book that features/ tests  will
evolve and you will have to refactor things from time to time ( based on
your chapter 6 when cucumbers go bad ) pairing with a dev helps a tester
to learn how to code and a dev would gain the knowledge of testing from
the end user prospective ...

A tester pairing with a programmer is a great way to write the test automation you need now, as well as mentor the testers in test automation programming.

+1 

[Björn Rasmusson]

Rob Park wrote:

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 8:10 AM, George Dinwiddie <li...@idiacomputing.com> wrote:

Vamsi,

On 7/31/13 6:33 AM, Vamsi wrote:

/I'm going to bang this drum again./
/
/
/Having people with no dev background writing test code is the wrong

choice, whatever language they're using. Ruby might look superficially
easy, but if you're doing any significant amount of testing, it will get

just as hard as Java./

Well I agree with what you are saying here Matt but does that mean the
testers should only write the tests and leave the automation  to a dev ?

I think the problem is not so much to have testers involved in the automation, the problem is to not having the devs involved in (or even responsible for) the automation. When the automation is (only) the testers problems, there is a risk that the devs:
- will not be interested in making the system testable, with suitable hooks and api:s
- will not be interested in developing libraries and dsl:s which makes writing step definitions easy
- will not be interested in mentoring and paring with the testers

With involvement and help from the devs the testers can be able perform a substantial part of the automation, but left on their own I think Matt is right, the end result will not be a good one.

Then how can a team become cross functional & how will manual testers
become automation QAs .. there should be a starting point. I know the
tests are going to be of some poor quality initially but they will get

better over the period time;

 

I would be very cautious about accepting poor quality initially, there is always a risk that there to soon will be to much technical debt to ever recover from it.
 
Regards
Björn

 

[Matt Wynne]

100% agreed Bjorn.

In my view, testers should delegate automation to developers.

 

 

that is  what something  even you
mentioned  in  your  cucumber text book that features/ tests  will
evolve and you will have to refactor things from time to time ( based on
your chapter 6 when cucumbers go bad ) pairing with a dev helps a tester
to learn how to code and a dev would gain the knowledge of testing from
the end user prospective ...

A tester pairing with a programmer is a great way to write the test automation you need now, as well as mentor the testers in test automation programming.

+1 

 - George

--
  Want to speak at AgileDC October 8, 2013?  http://agiledc.org/speak/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  * George Dinwiddie *                      http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
  Software Development                    http://www.idiacomputing.com
  Consultant and Coach                    http://www.agilemaryland.org
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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