CueSheet Pro fails to update at turns?

[Marmite Sandwich]

After trying trying various others, I am finding CueSheetPro to be the best app for reading out my gpx routes to me when I am biking. The integration with RideWithGPS is brilliant. I can enter my own cue sheet items and comments and have them read out as I approach a turn.

The problem I am experiencing is a big drawback, however. Every now and then (about every 6th turn on average), the app fails to recognise that I have reached a turn. If I keep going, although the gps position marker shows that it knows where I am, the app is still waiting for that turn to come up. And it will continue waiting for ever unless I stop, and advance the cue sheet manually to the next leg. Then it will get back in step. So, whenever I reach a turn and the turn instruction doesn't get announced, I know I have to stop and dig out the phone, take my gloves off, change my sunglasses for reading glasses, log into my phone, advance the app by one instruction, turn off the screen, change specs, put phone back in its case, put gloves back on and off we go! Not so good, that feature.

Any workarounds, or bug fixes planned?

Marmite

[Cue Sheet App Dev]

Thanks for the feedback. I've noticed this happens mostly in large intersections, like two-lane etc. If you can place the turn indicator in RWGPS when you create the route at the start of the turn it will have a better chance of being hit by CueSheet as it gets the GPS positions. The problem is that there are so many varying conditions in the world that it's hard to strike a balance between sensitivity to a turn and false positives. The turn data we are using may be out of sync with the real world. In order to improve this I'll need a large amount of sample data. I plan to really tackle this after I implement saving rides and can sit down at my computer and play back a bunch of rides and compare them with the cue I can calibrate the turn announcements etc.

[Marmite Sandwich]

Good to see you are on the case. My experience is that I am missing turns in wild country with very few other turns for miles (or km), before or after. I have seen that 2 or 3 quick turns in succession can choke the app, especially with the advance warnings thrown in. That is relatively easy to avoid in rwgps by removing some closely placed turns and putting a kind of "summary turn" in beforehand.

I just wonder if there is some way the app can determine that the present gps position is beyond the last turn and skip to the next one. It seems to get hung up waiting for a coordinate to appear that is actually behind, and you are riding further and further away from it. Something like:  "turn x+1 is consistently closer than turn x, which is what we were looking for, so let's forget about turn x and look for turn x + 1".

Cool app, though, otherwise.

Marmite

[Cue Sheet App Dev]

That works (the x+1 thing). Unless you are doing an out-and-back. But good thought.

[david....@gmail.com]

In an out-and-back, the app should know which direction it is traveling in (it can use direction to determine out or back. If the app isn't sure, it could ask.

[Cue Sheet App Dev]

The answer is probably something like that. Like I said I'll need to have some data to test with first.

-Geoff

[Marmite Sandwich]

Happy to provide data if I am able. Let me now how. Would be great if this was fixed.

Marmite.

[david pawlyk]

>>> "These symptoms make me wonder whether it is to do with the processor being busy at critical points, doing something else. I have a Samsung Galaxy S3, which is not state of the art, but has a fairly average processor capacity....., so I am going to try switching all of these off, because they may be causing CPU interrupts when I don't want them. Maybe I can try flight mode also?"

People used smartphones for car navigation (I have/do) without these sorts of problems. The S3 is a fairly current and powerful phone. I don't think worrying about the "processor being busy" is going to get you anywhere (unless you are running other "big" things at the same time).

(If you haven't used your phone for car navigation, you should try it.)

On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 8:19 AM, david pawlyk <david....@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>"I have WiFi, mobile data and Bluetooth switched on because Google seems to recommend this as a way to improve location accuracy."

What google is talking about is being able to determine your location quickly after starting-up. A lot of the "location services" used on smart phones are quick and short determinations of location.GPS's don't work very well for those kinds of "short burst" uses.

To get around that problem, smart phones use "assisted GPS" (aGPS) where other signals, cell-towers, wifi, etc, are used to get an initial position quickly. (Note that GPS doesn't work very well indoors either). These other methods are faster but they are not more accurate than the GPS location.

The location provided by these alternative methods also allow the GPS to start working faster. A straight GPS takes a while to figure out its initial location (once it knows where it is, it can follow movement very quickly). A GPS turned on where it was last used locks-in much faster than it would after being flown across the country (the position in that case would be 3000 miles off). The aGPS stuff allows the lock-in to be fast even when the unit has been moved long distances while turned-off.

Once the GPS has settled-in, the location it provides is much more accurate than any other method (you don't need any other method). Wifi doesn't really work at all when you outdoors since it has a very short range. Cell-towers will work if you have a cell-signal but the location they provide is not very accurate.

On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 7:15 AM, Marmite Sandwich <guy....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Geoff,

I am persevering with Cuesheet because it is the closest there is to being the ultimate app for biking with gpx routes, especially with the RWGPS integration. No importing and exporting of files, USB cables etc., plus the ability to customise the instructions via RWGPS. But this intermittent stalling is bothering me, so I am experimenting to find the best ways to mitigate it.

I just did a 23 mile route, which is my standard training circuit, so I can compare tweaks. Like you suggested, I cleaned up the RWGPS route so that there were no turns close together because the app seems to choke on these. I deleted them and replaced them with a custom instruction before the junction(s) and downloaded the route to the phone before leaving the house. Out of 39 cuesheet points, all well separated, it failed on 4, where I had to stop and advance the navigation onto the next point. There were a couple of others where I could tell the app was behind schedule (no warning at 0.1km), so I went slowly and hung around until the app caught up. I noticed that the points where it failed were all places where I was travelling at my fastest (c 12-15 mph?), and didn't wait for the instruction. These symptoms make me wonder whether it is to do with the processor being busy at critical points, doing something else. I have a Samsung Galaxy S3, which is not state of the art, but has a fairly average processor capacity. I have WiFi, mobile data and Bluetooth switched on because Google seems to recommend this as a way to improve location accuracy. I guess the app is only using gps, so I am going to try switching all of these off, because they may be causing CPU interrupts when I don't want them. Maybe I can try flight mode also?

Any other suggestions you have for making the product more reliable would be much appreciated. I am going on a 3 day trip soon, where I will be using Cuesheet for navigating through the countryside, and I am hoping not to be stopping every couple of miles to restart the app.

Marmite

[Marmite Sandwich]

Hi David,

GPS assistants.

Yes, I thought this was the case, that's why I thought I would try switching them off to see if it helps, because of the CPU thing. I am guessing that passing WiFi signals, and internet connection activity (updates and other unsolicited downloads) will cause intermittent CPU demands.

The CPU thing.

As far as I can see, Cuesheet works by triggering each instruction sequence (initial notification, a couple of distance warnings and the final turn itself) when it detects that it has arrived at the end of the previous sequence. In other words it must detect proximity to the turn location, in order to progress to the next turn. There is only a finite physical range in which this happens, say 50 yards each side of the turn, and if the CPU just happens to be busy during the period you are traversing this 100 yard section, maybe the app never gets to know that it has hit the zone. The period of time to cover that 100 yards may be as little as 15 seconds and after that the app will stall if it hasn't picked up a gps location close enough to the turn. It will go on waiting for that turn location to come up for ever. Maybe it is more about how good the gps signal is and how frequent the gps updates are. A good option might be to reduce the proximity sensitivity, e.g. range of 100 yards instead of 50 to give the app more chance to detect the turn location. I suggested to Geoff (the developer?) that the logic might be better if it advanced to the next turn when the current location is closer to the next turn than the one it was waiting for. He agreed but wants to do more analysis.

Google maps and other apps.

I have tried or am trying them all. I use Google maps on my phone in the car regularly and it is very reliable. Unlike Cuesheet, though, it constantly monitors your position relative to the route and adjusts the instructions (and route) accordingly, so it will always recover from a loss of gps signal. In my experience, though, it always seems to follow quite closely where you are. Cuesheet often seems to be late in recognising that I have reached a given point and in giving the appropriate instruction. I wonder if Cuesheet itself is too busy doing calculations or something, to notice that the gps position it was waiting for has come up. Also unlike Cuesheet, with Google it is not possible to specify an exact route of your choice with customised instructions/information at locations of your choice.

If Cuesheet didn't stall when it fails to recognise a turn location, it would be perfect. At least you know when this happens because the voice stays silent when it should be announcing the next instruction, so you can stop and advance it manually. Still a good product.

Marmite

[Marmite Sandwich]

Hi Geoff,

I am persevering with Cuesheet because it is the closest there is to being the ultimate app for biking with gpx routes, especially with the RWGPS integration. No importing and exporting of files, USB cables etc., plus the ability to customise the instructions via RWGPS. But this intermittent stalling is bothering me, so I am experimenting to find the best ways to mitigate it.

I just did a 23 mile route, which is my standard training circuit, so I can compare tweaks. Like you suggested, I cleaned up the RWGPS route so that there were no turns close together because the app seems to choke on these. I deleted them and replaced them with a custom instruction before the junction(s) and downloaded the route to the phone before leaving the house. Out of 39 cuesheet points, all well separated, it failed on 4, where I had to stop and advance the navigation onto the next point. There were a couple of others where I could tell the app was behind schedule (no warning at 0.1km), so I went slowly and hung around until the app caught up. I noticed that the points where it failed were all places where I was travelling at my fastest (c 12-15 mph?), and didn't wait for the instruction. These symptoms make me wonder whether it is to do with the processor being busy at critical points, doing something else. I have a Samsung Galaxy S3, which is not state of the art, but has a fairly average processor capacity. I have WiFi, mobile data and Bluetooth switched on because Google seems to recommend this as a way to improve location accuracy. I guess the app is only using gps, so I am going to try switching all of these off, because they may be causing CPU interrupts when I don't want them. Maybe I can try flight mode also?

Any other suggestions you have for making the product more reliable would be much appreciated. I am going on a 3 day trip soon, where I will be using Cuesheet for navigating through the countryside, and I am hoping not to be stopping every couple of miles to restart the app.

Marmite

[Geoffrey Matrangola]

Good insight and much appreciated. I am working on a new navigation algorithm (looking at a rules engine) but it'll be a while before I make get it out there. Like I said I won't be able to do a lot of the work I want to do until I have enough test data from rides. But that is coming soon too. I'm working on getting the iOS version out there now. Because cuesheet doesn't pull in enough revenue to make it my full time job updates are slower than I'd like. :)

I think some of the lag you guys are seeing isn't necessarily CPU usage. But I use a conservative Location update settings to save battery. They were good for most of the testing I've done myself, but I probably ride slower than you do. 

-Geoff

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[david pawlyk]

>>>"I have WiFi, mobile data and Bluetooth switched on because Google seems to recommend this as a way to improve location accuracy."

What google is talking about is being able to determine your location quickly after starting-up. A lot of the "location services" used on smart phones are quick and short determinations of location.GPS's don't work very well for those kinds of "short burst" uses.

To get around that problem, smart phones use "assisted GPS" (aGPS) where other signals, cell-towers, wifi, etc, are used to get an initial position quickly. (Note that GPS doesn't work very well indoors either). These other methods are faster but they are not more accurate than the GPS location.

The location provided by these alternative methods also allow the GPS to start working faster. A straight GPS takes a while to figure out its initial location (once it knows where it is, it can follow movement very quickly). A GPS turned on where it was last used locks-in much faster than it would after being flown across the country (the position in that case would be 3000 miles off). The aGPS stuff allows the lock-in to be fast even when the unit has been moved long distances while turned-off.

Once the GPS has settled-in, the location it provides is much more accurate than any other method (you don't need any other method). Wifi doesn't really work at all when you outdoors since it has a very short range. Cell-towers will work if you have a cell-signal but the location they provide is not very accurate.

On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 7:15 AM, Marmite Sandwich <guy....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Geoff,

I am persevering with Cuesheet because it is the closest there is to being the ultimate app for biking with gpx routes, especially with the RWGPS integration. No importing and exporting of files, USB cables etc., plus the ability to customise the instructions via RWGPS. But this intermittent stalling is bothering me, so I am experimenting to find the best ways to mitigate it.

I just did a 23 mile route, which is my standard training circuit, so I can compare tweaks. Like you suggested, I cleaned up the RWGPS route so that there were no turns close together because the app seems to choke on these. I deleted them and replaced them with a custom instruction before the junction(s) and downloaded the route to the phone before leaving the house. Out of 39 cuesheet points, all well separated, it failed on 4, where I had to stop and advance the navigation onto the next point. There were a couple of others where I could tell the app was behind schedule (no warning at 0.1km), so I went slowly and hung around until the app caught up. I noticed that the points where it failed were all places where I was travelling at my fastest (c 12-15 mph?), and didn't wait for the instruction. These symptoms make me wonder whether it is to do with the processor being busy at critical points, doing something else. I have a Samsung Galaxy S3, which is not state of the art, but has a fairly average processor capacity. I have WiFi, mobile data and Bluetooth switched on because Google seems to recommend this as a way to improve location accuracy. I guess the app is only using gps, so I am going to try switching all of these off, because they may be causing CPU interrupts when I don't want them. Maybe I can try flight mode also?

Any other suggestions you have for making the product more reliable would be much appreciated. I am going on a 3 day trip soon, where I will be using Cuesheet for navigating through the countryside, and I am hoping not to be stopping every couple of miles to restart the app.

Marmite

On Sunday, 30 March 2014 13:11:46 UTC+1, Marmite Sandwich wrote:

[Marmite Sandwich]

Just a little note to say I used this app on a 3 day outing across country without any hard copy maps. It worked well, subject to the "missed turns" issue. I found that, if you make a mental note of where the next turn is coming (how far), and then, when you get there, if you don't hear the next turn instruction YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR IT. This only happens intermittently, so it isn't a big problem, but you mustn't proceed to the next turn until you hear that instruction, or else you will never get another instruction.

It is also important to use RidewithGPS carefully. Planning the route with OSM cycle leads you to some tracks which are barely passable on foot, never mind with a bike. Using "Map" (Google maps) is more reliable, although you can still find yourself in somebody's private grounds. Also it is important if you are going to rely on spoken instructions only (no display), to check out and customise the turn instructions according to your interpretation of the map. Sometimes the default instructions are just nonsense.

Anyway, I am looking forward to the next release of the app, so that it takes account of whether you have passed a turn or not.

Cheers,

Marmite