BadBolts.com / CenTex Routes Input / !Note - Big email!

[Matt Twyman]

Hello all,

A while back I had announced the intent to create a database & interface for collecting & maintaining information on all the bolts in central Texas.  The data entry, data maintenance & physical maintenance at the crag would be performed by "wall or route champions" who would take a loose form of ownership over individual areas, walls or routes.  Over time, the database would be populated and the option for collecting meaningful metrics would arise that we can then present to the public and land managers.

This is big picture talk.

To get back to actual baby steps...

Thanks to Vinny & ClimbTech, I have been in contact with a gent by the name of Blake Bowling who manages badbolts.com, a website initially created to help Red River Gorge developers overhaul the massive amount of mank hardware.  Blake is funded by the Access Fund, the Southeastern Climbers Coalition & the American Alpine Club.  A particularly badass aspect of the site is that it is fully integrated with Ray Ellington's online guidebook to the Red.  Anyone can click on a link next to a route in the guidebook and report a problem.  The pertinent information auto-populates and makes reporting problems a breeze, meaning its a very useful tool and a ton gets done.  We have been working for quite some time now to incorporate central Texas into the site as well as develop expanded functionality.  The site is evolving and is working to become a national tool for the climbing community at large.  

Anyhow, Blake has been gradually making incremental tweaks here and there to make it a useful tool for any crag.  It has reached a point where it now makes sense to introduce it to Texas climbers.  We have loaded all of the areas & walls listed in the Dome Driver (ERock) & John Hogge's guidebook (BCGB, Reimer's, North Shore, GTown) as well as a few that aren't.  All of the routes now need to be input.  I could do this personally or we could perform an import but I figure this presents a good opportunity for people to provide a small service while also acquainting themselves with the site and offering feedback for further improvements.  The site is a work in progress and not always perfectly intuitive but it far surpasses any reporting / data collection method we currently have and is getting better all the time.

If you are interested in assisting with this endeavor, here's what I suggest you do:

1. Go to badbolts.com.  Scroll down to the Find Bad Bolts US map and click on Texas, or scroll over the Bad Bolts drop down and select "Find Bad Bolts" (takes you to the same thing just in another page
2. Navigate to different areas & walls.  On the TX page you will see the list of areas & # of walls & routes that exist in the database.  
3. Choose an area.  On each areas' page you will see the list of walls, # of routes, total # of reports (open + closed), and the # of open reports for each area.  
4. Choose a wall.  On each wall's page you will see the same information as above (#routes, # reports, # open reports) along with a white button in the upper right corner above the map (if present) stating "Add route".
5. If you see an opportunity to add a route that's not present yet, click on the link.  You can also just use this link to take you directly to the Add Route Texas page.
6. The next page will auto populate the state, area & wall drop downs, but you can also change these to add routes to other areas.  Each lower level drop down will update with a filtered selection based on whatever you select above it.  Sometimes this takes a few seconds or you have to click around to make the page refresh the data.
7. Input the route's name and click "submit route".  It will inform you if the route already exists and prevent you from creating a duplicate.

Once a route exists anyone can then submit a bad bolt report against it.  Currently no emails get triggered to the champions but we are working on that.  The current process just has champions reviewing their routes / walls / areas for open reports.

If you have a bolt to report, navigate to the route (or search for it) and click on "Report Bad Bolt for This Route".  Below is a screenshot showing the reporter & required fields.  Need to report more than just one bolt?... Click on the "Multiple Bolts Report Page". Currently the only requirements are your contact info, bolt #, bolt type, issue & description.  The admins have more data to input once they review the bolt and disposition.  

The way it works until we get the email notifications integrated is that the champions will have limited admin access to the walls they manage.  They periodically review their walls to see if there are open reports and manage them as needed.  The CTM funds hardware maintenance.  Issues to discuss can continue on this bolts group or eventually extend to the up & coming badbolts developers forum.

Please let me know if you are interested in championing a particular wall or set of walls.  The expectation is that the champions monitor for reports and act on them as needed, being sure to properly close out a report once the disposition has been completed.  Champions perform the actual hardware maintenance.  Tools can be borrowed from the CTM, or the CTM can consider funding you if need be.  If there's an area / wall you'd like entered, just let me know.  

That's about it for now.  Tear into it and thanks in advance for your assistance!

Oh... and Blake is looking for advertising (or straight up cash donations) so if you like this and are feelin generous, it's a good cause to support.

Cheers,

Matt Twyman

President, CTM

[John Hogge]

I wonder if rockclimbing.com would be up for exporting selected portions of their database for this purpose? It contains most of what’s in my book, and I think a lot of erock.

 

Regards,

--John

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[Matt Twyman]

Yes, BIG email.  Sorry but didnt know how else to capture everything.  Guess I could have made a pdf.  Doh.

I'm up for exporting but feel that this is a good first step to get the local developers to interact with the site and offer feedback while it's still relatively unpopulated.

Eager to hear back from people!
Matt

[Troy Wilson]

Matt,  I would like to help out at Georgetown if you need it.  I take Cade to school up there 3 times a week and it would be easy for me.  The city has been expanding the roads and are jackin up the Pulpit in the process.  Let me know any way I can help.

Cheers,

[Matt Twyman]

Cool.

I don't know of any immediate attention needed there (other than unearthing the pulpit), and all the routes for GTown are already entered into the badbolts database.  Are you saying you'd like to be the wall champion there?

thanks!

matt

[Troy Wilson]

Sure, I could champion there.  I would be psyched!

[Matt Twyman]

Crew,

Blake and I have had our eyes turned to our own projects for a bit, but have both gotten re-energized to make another push for improvement to the site.

Notably, the site currently utilizes Twitter to manage users and report notifications.  Its benefits include free & easy integration into the site.  Its limitations include single user area admins & no directed notifications to the individuals that truly need them.  So, Blake is working to migrate to an email-based administration to remedy both of these situations.  He's putting in a big push this weekend so hopefully we'll see improvements shortly.

In the meantime, I wanted to recognize that reports are not getting the attention they require.  It was always known that getting the data was the first and easiest step, the next is focused notification, assigning bolt smiths to each wall / area, and finally formal posting at crags to inform the public of how to report issues.  

So, with all this in mind, I wanted to reach out to the group, and a few others, to bring attention to current reports and see if we can knock them out.

Come January, i will have much more time to help in this effort.  For now, I can only help manage.

There are the following open reports that need attention:

8 on the Greenbelt

14 at Reimers

3 at North Shore

Please go to http://badbolts.com/states/tx and drill down to the walls & routes to see the individual reports. 

Additionally, I am now a super admin and can assign other users developer status in order to update & close reports.  First you'll need a Twitter account.  then go to badbolts > login and let it authorize.  We're working to move beyond this, but for the time being, this is the only way to get involved.  As Blake gets into beta testing I'll reach out to select individuals to help in that.  If you know of other people who'd like to help in the maintenance effort, have them create an account on badbolts using this method and kick them my way so I can make then developers and get to managing reports.

Thanks yall.

matt  

PS... anyone (John?) have photos we can send Blake for each area's / wall's page?

PPS... still need to populate routes for the Greenbelt, Bull Creek, Cub Cave, ERock, and N Shore.  

[Joel Schopp]

After Matt figures out how I can reset my password and add me as an admin I can take care of the greenbelt ones.  One I already fixed (worn anchors at Seismic), one I confirmed is safe (through the looking glass) but and might need some help extracting the existing Powers 5 piece and replacing it anyway, and the third is a safe spinner (at seismimc) I'll see if it tightens next time I'm there.

The Reimers ones are a bit more concerning, any volunteers to take on these?
Gates on anchors of Huevos Locos open themselves even when pushed closed http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/5447ca19dd0f2400020004a3

Scott's Pelotas anchors more than halfway worn http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/53710ffbd1c48e0002000235

Glue ins aren't supposed to shake (Hello Kitty) http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/544d8efbf13aea0002000300

Strangle Hold has rusted 1/4" studs, needs new bolts. http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/53dfe51577cf9a000200052e

God Bless the IRS, chains and anchors stolen, need replacing http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/537823ed827dc40002000037

Rusty Bolt out about half a cm on Mikey Likes It http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/536cf316331654000200013e

Misc:
Rusted Hanger on No Recess http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/534ed09ba26c1e00020000a1

Bolt sticks out too far on Nobody's Hero http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/53711213d1c48e0002000255

Spinners, at least need looking at, maybe fine maybe need tightening, maybe need replacing:

Spinner on Telegraph Road http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/535995d55517e4000200016a

Spinner on Blood of the Dead http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/534ed052a26c1e000200008b

Spinner on Yurtle http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/5363ac785cf4750002000215

Spinner on the grinch http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/5363ac365cf47500020001f6

Spinner on Body Wax, might also consider placement if replacing http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/546fa42209d6080002000207

Spinner on More Wasabi, http://badbolts.com/bolt_reports/536ef0b9b464e900020000bd

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Gmail]

I'll look at the ones I can. Hello kitty first. 

Adam Mitchell

Rock-About.com

In...@Rock-About.com

512-415-0804 

   

<Screen Shot 2014-11-27 at 12.29.39 AM.png>

Additionally, I am now a super admin and can assign other users developer status in order to update & close reports.  First you'll need a Twitter account.  then go to badbolts > login and let it authorize.  We're working to move beyond this, but for the time being, this is the only way to get involved.  As Blake gets into beta testing I'll reach out to select individuals to help in that.  If you know of other people who'd like to help in the maintenance effort, have them create an account on badbolts using this method and kick them my way so I can make then developers and get to managing reports.

<Screen Shot 2014-11-27 at 12.34.06 AM.png>

<image001.png>

 

 

[John Hogge]

I replaced a set at Insanity Wall’s 5.10 area, but I have to see if it was Huevos Locos. Several routes there might have the same anchor issues.

--John

--

[Patrick Dyson]

I can probably remove the bolt if you can put a glue in in. Need the extractor kit (tap, extractor), does anyone have a loaner?

Patrick

On Nov 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Joel Schopp <joel....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Joel Schopp]

I was thinking a glue in for a single bolt is a pain.  Do we know if the legacy bolt works well after the hole gets a bit beat up from extracting a 5 piece?  If so I guess we'll have to do a wave bolt.

-Joel

[Gmail]

Which bolt are you talking about Patrick and Joel. I have a kit and can do both extract and glue. 

Adam Mitchell

Rock-About.com

In...@Rock-About.com

512-415-0804 

   

[Joel Schopp]

The 4th bolt on Through the Looking Glass at New Wall.

[Gmail]

K I'll check it out. Probably Wednesday because I've been in Oklahoma. Gotta spend time with Amy. 

Adam Mitchell

Rock-About.com

In...@Rock-About.com

512-415-0804 

   

[Vinny]

legacy bolt is a no go in extracted 1/2" five peice.  3/8" has a shot but thats hard to extract.

If anyone is putting a kit together, holler, i have some beta that might help.

[Matt Twyman]

I'll echo what Vinny said just to be clear.  Any extraction requires a glue-in replacement of the same or larger size.  3/8" bolts currently can only be either chopped or cored out.  Coring definitely requires a glue-in replacement.  Extraction, particularly in limestone, makes the hole a little wider.  The story would be different in granite, where I'd confidently claim that a hole could take a replacement expansion bolt.

I just gave the CTM extraction kit, along with many of my own tools, to Seiji & Troy.  I hear Seiji is only here through this week so they should become available again after that, at least through me.

Vinny, I realized I never gave you the parts list for the extractor kits.  My bad.

I have a google spreadsheet through CTM with everything.  I'm working to update it now with the latest information.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dMNHAChfYrE1eyhNjZB-IQjG6Ltad4n2PyKE34VUrzw/edit?usp=sharing

matt

[Matt Twyman]

drat, i don't have edit access to the file anymore.  give me a bit and I'll send you a refreshed file and have Joel swap out the file on the drive.

matt

[Matt Twyman]

All,

Been communicating with Blake.  He initiated the email administration over the weekend as promised.  You no longer login via twitter.  Instead, please go to badbolts.com/users/sign_up/ and register with your email.  I can then assign you as a developer to various crags, to which you will soon receive email notifications of badbolt reports.  If you have a preference as to which crags you do or do not want to be a developer for, just let me know.  else, I'll default to signing you up for every crag in Texas.  ;  )

We currently have these crag options (more can be added with ease):

Barton Creek Greenbelt

Bull Creek

Continental Ranch

Cub Cave

ERock

Georgetown

Hueco Tanks

Lake Belton

North Shore

Reimer's Ranch

Mr Markell,

I just saw that you're not a member of the CTM Bolts Group and so am copying you here.  Sorry, a lot for you to catch up on, but I think this tool will be useful for you and the San Antonio crew.  We can chat more.

getting there.  

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Se...@coachseiji.com <Se...@coachseiji.com> wrote:

Yes I have Matt’s kit and will be done with it Wed night. I can do whatever with it before I leave or I can just leave it with Troy. Thanks Matt!

 

From: Matt Twyman [mailto:twea...@gmail.com]

Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 11:08 AM
To: CTM Bolts Group

[Vinny]

Matt,

If you want, we could keep the extractor kits here at ClimbTech with a signout sheet or something.  Might make it easier for people to get a hold of it.

Also, i see room for improvement on you list/ kits, we should discuss further.

-V

[Matt Twyman]

I like it Vinny!

yes, it's always a work in progress.  Just made an improvement the other day (hopefully).  

These are just tools for the community.  I take no ownership, other than the love of helping create it.

[Matt Twyman]

here's the latest version.

Feel free to suggest improvements or additional tools.

Joel, please replace the old file (BOM_Powers5pcExtractorKit_r1) with this one in Hardware folder.

[Vinny]

This is what the guys in CO are using just a FYI, kinda cool when you have time to take a peek, specifically what i think we could upgrade are the taps.  I also like the funkness device with the forged eye, see number 11.

1.       Drill

2.       Hammer

3.       Funkness device

4.       Wrenches:

a.       torque wrench, + 9/16" socket, 1/2" socket

b.      open end wrench (Matt- didn't you find one with 9/16" on one side and 1/2" on the other?)

c.       small crescent wrench

d.      small needle-nosed vice grips

5.       Bits:

a.       (x2, minimum) standard 3/8" x 6" carbide tipped masonry bit

b.      (x2, minimum) standard 1/2" x 6" carbide tipped masonry bit

c.       optional: 1/2" chip breaker bit: Dewalt makes one with a pointed tip that can shred a 3/8" sleeve and cone [p#: DW5235]

                                                               i.      tip looks like this:

6.       Dust/debris cleaners:

a.       blow tube or 'Powers Hand Pump Dust Blower'

b.      nylon pipe brush

c.       magnet (I'm using a 1/4" x 1" rare earth neodymium magnet that I CA glued into a 1/4" x 6" brass tube. Very strong. Hardware store sells an extendable picker-upper, but that isn't as useful.)

d.      T-handle hook tool from Gary Ballard's pdf. Made from an Allen wrench using a torch and vise.

7.       Wedge anchor removal:

a.       custom SDS 3/8" adapter and coupler (with set screw or second nut) for spinning studs with the drill on standard rotary setting.

b.      optional: 3/8-16 die with wrench (or use w/crescent)

8.       Rawl removal:

a.       T-handle tap wrench

b.      taps:

                                                               i.      3/8-16 3 flute heavy duty spiral flute plug tap (Reiff & Nestor Co. part #: 64182)

                                                             ii.      7/16-20 3 flute heavy duty spiral flute plug tap (Reiff & Nestor Co. part #: 64212)

9.       Puller option #1: Greenlee hydraulic punch driver

a.       7/16-20 draw stud adapter for direct connection to 1/2" Rawl sleeves

b.      custom 3/8-16 female to 3/4" coupler for direct connection to 3/8" studs or all-thread connections to 3/8" sleeves and 1/2" cones

c.       custom 5/16-18 female to 3/4" coupler for all-thread connection to 3/8" cones

d.      custom 1/4-20 female to 3/4" coupler for direct connection to 1/4" studs

e.      spacers (can use the die cups from the Greenlee kit or make some by splitting short sections of 1" black pipe into 'C' shapes for easy insertion)

f.        all-thread connectors of several lengths for 3/8" sleeves and 1/2" cones in 3/8-16: 1.5", 2.5", 3.5", and 6"

g.       all-thread connectors of several lengths for 3/8" cones in 5/16-18: 1.5", 3", and ~4.5"

h.      optional : 3/8-24 draw stud adapter for direct connection to 3/8" Rawl sleeves, requires different 3/8" tap

10.   Puller option #2: bolt/nut method

a.       Grade 5 or Grade 8 tap bolts with nuts and washers:

                                                               i.      7/16-20 x 5~6"

                                                             ii.      3/8-16 x 5~6"

                                                            iii.      5/16-18 x 5~6"

b.      spacers -make some by splitting short sections of 1" black pipe into 'C' shapes for easy insertion

11.   Puller option #3: (still theoretical*)

a.       forged eye nuts and all-thread connectors in 7/16-20, 3/8-16, and 5/16-18.  Designed for overhead lifting, reusable, and they shouldn't mess up the threads like funking with a hanger will. Should perfectly line up the force vector for more satisfying funking. I've ordered all three and have yet to test the idea. Should work as the fastest method for 3/8" cones and a lower-cost method for all sleeves with the right weight hammer and a beefy funkness.

[Matt Twyman]

hot damn

Those taps are rad!  I've never understood why all taps in the world have that dumbass square bit that slides out from the handles.  Are there no taps with bits that lock in place??

Their puller options won't work on our limestone.  Rock will explode.  Plus, they're heavy and require additional tooling.  The best option I have for stud bolts right now is to core them.  At ERock though, the story is totally different and their puller would be bad ass.

Joel,

how about you make the spreadsheet editable by anyone you share it with through CTM?  That way we can all make improvements to the set.

Blake has initiated email reports for developers overseeing a given area.  The format will get some love, but for now, it's a step in the right direction.  Woohoo!

[Joel Schopp]

Matt,

If you are up for it I'd like CTM to buy a couple coring sets and another bolt extraction kit.

-Joel

[Matt Twyman]

of course!

more the merrier.

We've yet to give the coring sets a full blown working to prove out their long term use, but I can ask Dave's bud to whip up a few more anyways.  More in the field, means more testing.  We currently have, I believe, 2 1/2" SDS bits & 3 3/8" SDS bits.

what about moving the lock box from above Insanity Wall, and over to the ranger station?  Further, it would be great to have all the needed tools present in the box along with a trickle charger (solar powered?) for batteries.

[Russell Mayes]

This is all outstanding! Thank you.
--- twea...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Matt Twyman <twea...@gmail.com>
To: CTM Bolts Group <ctmb...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: BadBolts.com / CenTex Routes Input / !Note - Big email!

--90e6ba613b66762cd105092dd6b6--

[Gmail]

All

I just fixed Through The Looking Glass. The bolt broke when trying to remove so I had to unfortunately drill a new hole. I would have attempted coring but didn't know for sure if the core but I had would work correctly since it was developed for a 3/8 bolt. I also didn't trust the hole as it was total shit. I honestly can't believe a mechanical bolt was in this rock. I'm thankful no one got hurt. Please help me keep an eye on this bolt because the rock really isn't that good. 

My assumption about why the bolt broke is that it had been torquing on that lower spot where the hole started breaking out so the bolt was probably already stressed on the top. I think it is a pretty educated guess because it wasn't super hard to break and my attempts to loosen in normal ways was useless. Normally when this has happened to me in the past the cone starts slipping. Also, the sleeve broke at the same spot leaving me to believe there has been a lot of pressure on that spot. 

There is a new glue in and the hole has been patched. 

Adam Mitchell

Rock-About.com

In...@Rock-About.com

512-415-0804 

   

                                                               i.      tip looks like this: <image001.png>

a.       <image004.jpg>forged eye nuts and all-thread connectors in 7/16-20, 3/8-16, and 5/16-18.  Designed for overhead lifting, reusable, and they shouldn't mess up the threads like funking with a hanger will. Should perfectly line up the force vector for more satisfying funking. I've ordered all three and have yet to test the idea. Should work as the fastest method for 3/8" cones and a lower-cost method for all sleeves with the right weight hammer and a beefy funkness.

[Matt Twyman]

Freaking fantastic Adam!  That was fast work. Would love to see an after picture. Both before & after photos can be attached to reports. 

We're doing great with people signing up and Im very excited to have yall finally able to see new reports and manage them. Psyched! 

--
Sent from my not so smart and not so big phone. Possibly with one hand, or maybe with a headset. Please enjoy grammatical errors.

[Matt Twyman]

All,

Here is how I have everyone setup in BB.

Please let me know if you would like anything changed.

The available areas to subscribe to are:

Greenbelt (need more route records loaded)

Bull Creek (no route records loaded yet)

Continental Ranch (no route records loaded yet)

Cub Cave (no route records loaded yet)

ERock (no route records loaded yet)

Georgetown (fully recorded)

Hueco Tanks (no route records loaded yet)

Lake Belton (no route records loaded yet)

North Shore (only a few route records loaded)

Reimer's Proper (need a few more route records loaded)

I need help with loading all the route records for every area so that people select from a drop down the route they want to submit a report.  Else, we run the risk of the public creating new records in a manner that could muddy the waters.  I may push to only be able to have admins create new routes, but Blake isn't there yet on his side.  

Anyhow, all it takes is navigating to the appropriate area>wall (reviewing what may already be entered) then selecting "add route".  Simply enter the route name from the guide book, input the verification code, and enter.  Repeat.

Anyhow, back to the topic at hand...

Let me know.

And let's get more people working!

cheers,

Matt

[Troy Wilson]

Thanks Matt!

[Matt Twyman]

Crew,

In your use of the BadBolts.com site, if you come across errors or have suggestions for specific elements that you'd like to see improved, you can now submit a ticket via a ticke tracker Blake uses.

Go to:

http://badbolts.lighthouseapp.com/

create an account

... once you have a lighthouse account, you can email tickets directly using 

ticket+badbolts...@lighthouseapp.com

Help us to keep improving the site for your, and everyone else's use!

[Troy Wilson]

Thanks Matt!

Troy Wilson
President / Co-Owner
Austin Rock Gym Inc.
(512) 293-7293

[Matt Twyman]

PS

y'all wanna see worn?!

Now THAT's something to be worried about!!!

http://badbolts.com/routes/507c7611d4df840002000002

[Troy Wilson]

Damn...the deflection is pretty bad as well.  I can only imagine the story behind this.

[Matt Twyman]

a LOT of people were obviously ok with making stupid decisions

I'd think that someone would have left a biner or two as replacements or a leaver on the bolt below it.

[Vinny]

See how it says INOX on the side, thats a stainless sport anchor.  stainless is a whole lot softer and wears a ton quicker than plated steel.  Not to mention that thing is so easy to replace i dont know why they'd ever use it there.

So it definately wore out really quick and because its so soft, was easily bent out.  Its rediculous the rest of the route was bolted with plated hardware and they spent $50 on stainless sport clips... bassackwords and a real shame.  Theres always something to be learned though!

-V

[Seiji Ishii]

Ok so Vnny can you list your ideal materials from bolts on up? Just want to be clear. I know not to mix metals that touch but I guess I’m a victim of marketing. I assumed SS bolts/hangers but at the lowering anchors I was confused since your permadraws are coated steel. Thanks man and stoked to get back on it when I get back to TX.

[Gmail]

The bolts and hangers should be SS. Any other gear that is hanging on them can be plated. The reason is the Plated is most affected by Galvanic Corrosion Sotheby's Quicklinks will be the most affected. These are easily replaceable whereas a bolt is not. Old school bolters always used plated bolts and SS hangers which makes the bolt rust very fast. 

Adam Mitchell
Rock-About.com
In...@Rock-About.com
512-415-0804

    

<image001.jpg>

[Vinny]

To elaborate on that....  titanium or we're all gonna die.  just kidding.

crash course on materials.

Aluminum- light great for draws but wears out super quick, the dangerous ones are the i-beam style caranbiners, once that inside edge wears through, the spine gets razor sharp. great for draws, never for fixed gear.

Plated steel- only thing keeping that sucker from breaking down is a thin zinc layer, when mixed with SS with a little moisture, itll break down like RUN DMC with a carboard box laid flat.  Google Anodic reaction, its like a car battery.  good for quicklinks and anchors, cheap and durable.

304SS -really good, its a little less resistant than 316 but not as soft. awesome for hangers

316SS -sometimes called "marine grade", really resistant to corrosion and pitting but its soft, great for bolts.  also, "marine grade" is a marketing term.

316L SS- L stands for low carbon, so it can take a weld better, best for glue in bolts

2205 duplex SS-  the bomb, really expensive, most it come from germany...baller stuff and closest to "marine grade" as you can get with SS

Titanium- the best for glue ins but really really expensive, can be brittle, super lightweight, when i grow up i want a john boat made out of it just to have...

So for any route i would say 304SS is minimum for bolts and hangers. 316 for the bolt is better because you cant see whats in the hole and 304 is fine for the hanger because that's easily inspected and its not as soft.  For glue in's 316 is a minimum for the same reason, 316L for anything that has a weld.  2205 for a marine environment and titanium if you drive a lambo.

For top anchors, use zinc plated modular systems for maximum wear resistance, a rope sitting in silt picks that stuff up in the fibers, at volcanic crags like Owen River gorge itll go through aluminum like butter.  Modular, really just means a quicklink, its easy to replace.  Aluminum is too soft, its for quickdraws because its so light. 

Rings are good in theory because theyre supposed to spin and distribute the wear evenly, ive seen lots with grooves in them, so a modular system is better again, because you can swap out the ring.  I think a quicklink and forged ring is the best setup for most routes, requires cleaning but its low impact and low maintenance.  BUT, people fuck it up and get hurt so sport clips are used around here more...which is a pity.

-V

[Seiji Ishii]

Sweet thanks for the run down on metallurgy. I guess the hand pounded 3/8” open top could shut lowering station fell out of vogue somewhere in my absence lol. So the interface between the SS hanger or Wave Bolt at the lowering station and the quick link a no big deal since it’s clearly visible an easy fix.  Thanks  you guys, was trying to figure out how to stay in the no mixing metals rule at the lowering station.  

[Matt Twyman]

that was a bad ass break down Vinny.

One of these days we're going to have a written or online maintenance guide.

[Vinny]

A little bird stopped by and said ClimbTech is working on a big n' beefy solid leg glue in for slabs and crux bolts... 316L with super bomber barstock...psyched for that one. Great for top anchors too.

The thing is, around here, if developers just step up and use stainless right off the bat, that rig is going to last a really really long long time, worry free too.  It cuts down on development sure, because stainless isnt cheap, which in and of itself mitigates crappy routes going in because you only wanna pay for the best routes.  Grid bolting walls is aimless and lacking in vision really.

My concern is pace bend or any other area thats being developed, if someone cheaps out and goes plated, like the good ol' days ect..., on a route its gonna rust out eventually, leave rust marks blah blah blah...so if you guys know of anyone putting in new lines, push stainless at a minimum


...and then belay them lots because bolters are awesome...:)

-V

[Matt Twyman]

If Pace Bend is approved for bolting, it should be 100% SS. "New" area that can be more thoroughly managed and no reason to skimp. 

[Gmail]

RC has a SS rule for the area. Don't know why it'd be different for PB. 

Adam Mitchell

Rock-About.com

In...@Rock-About.com

512-415-0804 

   

On Dec 12, 2014, at 5:18 PM, Matt Twyman <twea...@gmail.com> wrote:

If Pace Bend is approved for bolting, it should be 100% SS. "New" area that can be more thoroughly managed and no reason to skimp. 

On Friday, December 12, 2014, Vinny <chris.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

A little bird stopped by and said ClimbTech is working on a big n' beefy solid leg glue in for slabs and crux bolts... 316L with super bomber barstock...psyched for that one. Great for top anchors too.

The thing is, around here, if developers just step up and use stainless right off the bat, that rig is going to last a really really long long time, worry free too.  It cuts down on development sure, because stainless isnt cheap, which in and of itself mitigates crappy routes going in because you only wanna pay for the best routes.  Grid bolting walls is aimless and lacking in vision really.

My concern is pace bend or any other area thats being developed, if someone cheaps out and goes plated, like the good ol' days ect..., on a route its gonna rust out eventually, leave rust marks blah blah blah...so if you guys know of anyone putting in new lines, push stainless at a minimum


...and then belay them lots because bolters are awesome...:)

-V

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Matt Twyman <twea...@gmail.com> wrote:

that was a bad ass break down Vinny.

One of these days we're going to have a written or online maintenance guide.

<B97.gif>

[luckin8or]

Why would an area with long history and established ethic be approved for bolting? What is protocol for removing bad or warnout glue in bolts?

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4 Active™, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Matt Twyman <twea...@gmail.com>
Date: 12/12/2014 5:18 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: ctmb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: BadBolts.com / CenTex Routes Input / !Note - Big email!

If Pace Bend is approved for bolting, it should be 100% SS. "New" area that can be more thoroughly managed and no reason to skimp. 

On Friday, December 12, 2014, Vinny <chris.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

A little bird stopped by and said ClimbTech is working on a big n' beefy solid leg glue in for slabs and crux bolts... 316L with super bomber barstock...psyched for that one. Great for top anchors too.

The thing is, around here, if developers just step up and use stainless right off the bat, that rig is going to last a really really long long time, worry free too.  It cuts down on development sure, because stainless isnt cheap, which in and of itself mitigates crappy routes going in because you only wanna pay for the best routes.  Grid bolting walls is aimless and lacking in vision really.

My concern is pace bend or any other area thats being developed, if someone cheaps out and goes plated, like the good ol' days ect..., on a route its gonna rust out eventually, leave rust marks blah blah blah...so if you guys know of anyone putting in new lines, push stainless at a minimum


...and then belay them lots because bolters are awesome...:)

-V

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Matt Twyman <twea...@gmail.com> wrote:

that was a bad ass break down Vinny.

One of these days we're going to have a written or online maintenance guide.

[Matt Twyman]

Luckin8or (sorry, don't know your name),

Travis County Parks has been considering the CTM's proposal to adopt a bolting policy out there.  With chronically low water levels, DWS is out of the question and large cliff bands are exposed, but unprotected.  

I can't really claim that there is a long standing ethic out there.  Bolting has always been illegal and the lack of proliferation has likely been more an issue of avoiding the rangers than maintaining a level of ethics.  

Bad or worn out glue-ins?  do you know of any??

matt

[luckin8or]

Three questions, three.guesses. whi am I?

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4 Active™, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Matt Twyman <twea...@gmail.com>
Date: 12/13/2014 4:52 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: CTM Bolts Group <ctmb...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: BadBolts.com / CenTex Routes Input / !Note - Big email!

--

[Norman Meyer]

I know!

[Matt Twyman]

Yall have lost me. 

Spam?  May remove addresses from group

--

[Christopher Vinson]

Haha what's the ethic at pace bend?  Educate me luckin8or.

[karl v]

It's Mike Klein.

Mike, what ethic are you talking about for Pace Bend? Please do illuminate us if there's a lost history or ethic to the place, specifically about bolting lines.

Karl

[Matt Twyman]

Mike

You sneeky sob