Upcoming Hardware 101 Class

[Matt Twyman]

Howdy all,
Reminder that the CTM is having its first hardware 101 class this coming Saturday (23-march) down on the greenbelt at mile marker 3.75 (lower/hiker trail, not upper/biker trail, ~1mi upstream from Seismic) from 10-1.  This class is intended to offer current standards & expectations for bolting as well as methods for monitoring & maintaining hardware.  This will be a time for hands on learning.  Tools & gear will be available for practicing installation and removal.

The goals of this class are to raise the general awareness & education of the public as well as seek individuals who are willing to offer long term support in monitoring & maintaining our crags' ever aging hardware.

If you are an experienced developer, this will be a great opportunity to share your experiences with others.  The CTM currently has 4 hammer drills, 5 extraction sets, several coring bits, various hammers, two torque wrenches and various bolts available for this class.  If you are willing to offer tools or bolts for this class, please contact pres.cen...@gmail.com or just bring them with you.

Please, if you are planning on attending this class, register on the events page of the CTM's facebook (central texas mountaineers).  This will just help us to gauge the size turnout to expect.  Wear comfortable clothing and bring food/drinks.

Cheers,
Matt Twyman
President, CTM

[Patrick Dyson]

A while ago the sport clips were replaced on 8 flake but the old ones resisted removal. I tried my standard technique this weekend (flip them over and tap them down with a hammer) but they have been squeezed shut too tightly for that to work.

They look like these fixe anchors http://www.everestgear.com/403060.html?productid=403060&channelid=FROOG with a captured ring.

I am thinking that they need either a grinder/hack saw (may leave behind shards, not great idea) or the big bolt cutters (to cut the ring). Anything else make sense? I can clip them next weekend if I can borrow the bolt cutters.

Cheers,

Patrick

[Adam Mitchell]

Unless your the Hulk i dont advise the bolt cutters. A grinder is really the best way to remove those anchors. I have a grinder but would need Matt's battery/inverter to make it happen. We can get rid of the metal stuff and most of that will go a good ways off. 

Adam Mitchell

Rock-About.com

In...@Rock-About.com

512-415-0804

    

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[Luke Bowman]

Best way to do this is going to be using Tommy's 42in bolt cutters. We've done this more than once. It's also a lot easier with 2 people just because the bolt cutters are so f-ing big. It helps to have a buddy to move them around with.

[kvochatzer]

Alternatively, carefully remove the bolt shafts so as not to dislodge the cones,  remove the old hangers with attached rings and worn sport clips, replace with new hangers and add just the Climbtech anchors on them, then even more carefully rethread the bolt back into the cone in the hole. Torque. Done. 

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S III

[Joel Schopp]

If you have tried that Karl you are a braver man than I.  I'd stick with a really really really long pair of bolt cutters or a good dremel with a cutting wheel.

-Joel

[Tommy Blackwell]

I have my 42" bolt cutters that will cut the circular ring that holds the steel carabiner to the hanger. I'll be happy to loan them.

 

And there is a pair of 36" bolt cutters that I donated to CTM inside the tool box located on top of Insane Tree hugger.

 

Like, Luke said.. use two people.

 

That is what Cass and I did Feb 12 last year to change out the worn sport clips on Prototype.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uSnozliu4028uSQV93IW2B1x9XUjn5mCLFyvyrVCFxw/edit

 

Tommy

Tommy
(512) 431-2226

[Luke Bowman]

In my experience the 42s are worth the extra weight to deal with over the 36s. They cut a lot easier. 

[Matt Twyman]

look at all these methods.

I've never used the bolt cutters on a wall so can't comment on that process.  I've liked using my grinder as I can do this sort of work alone.  Alternatively I support Karl's method but I don't know the state of the bolts these are in.  How many bolts are up there now?

thanks for the effort Patrick!

I'm happy to lend my grinder and wheel anytime.

matt

[kvochatzer]

From memory,  it's two bolts with at least one old cold shut,  maybe a second one farther left. 

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S III

[Patrick Dyson]

Bolts are in great shape - two newish ones hanging the anchors with an old one not in use. I think that I'm going to try Tommy's monster bolt cutters, hopefully from the top, they make the most satisfying snap when cutting chain and are handy for home defense. 

I think that a battery operated grinder would be my first choice in a different location but since the bolts are in a little alcove and the climb is not vertical I'll defer to Karl's judgement and try the clean way. A buddy of mine uses a battery operated dremel tool to cut chain when doing multi pitch anchor replacement, those little wheels seem to mostly burn the metal away and generate little grit.

Thanks for chiming in & sharing your experienced opinions,

Patrick

[karl v]

Patrick,

Just a quick thought. I like that you'll try the 42 inch bolt cutters from the top, otherwise if anything goes wrong with the bolt cone inside the hole, you are forced to drill and install another one. 

From what I recall, you'll have 2 options on what to bolt cutter chop. 1) Cut both sides of the single ring (think steel rap ring) that the sport clips are wrapped around, which will be a lot of muscle to do 4 times for both anchors, or 2) Cut once on the small end of the sport clip itself so that it falls apart into 2 pieces from the one cut, which will result in leaving that single ring next to the quick link that the anchors are installed on. There's really no harm to leave them on since they are meant to be rap ring anchors from the factory.

I'm happy with either option in the end just to get that old set off.

Good luck and thank you very much!

Karl

[Matt Twyman]

http://www.splitterchoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/sam-replacing-bolts.jpg

THAT'S commitment!

I like it!

[John Hogge]

1.       Note the keeper on the bolt cutters. Important.

2.       Don’t cut your rope! Very Important!

Karl

 

matt

[Vinny]

Hey guys, sorry its taken me so long to reply to this thread.  Its a great one, my two pennies might not be a crowd favorite but bear with me.  I really don't want this to spiral into a long thread/debate but if there's any place to have it I guess this is the place.

We must re-bolt with better hardware, or the best available hardware when we're working on our crags.  OK, this isn't a re-bolting job, but it easily could be, you're already up there.  Taking the time to rebolt the anchors today, will likely make things easier down the line for the next time top anchors need replacing?  That route is a classic, it gets more traffic than likely any other route at Reimers and I think it deserves the attention so that it continues to be enjoyed for a millenia.  Fix it once, fix it right kind of thing.

We are lucky in CenTex that we don't have to deal with severe corrosion issues but what we might end up with is cliff with lots of extra bolt holes, I've seen it at rifle, at the red, vegas and have had countless email converations with craggers abroad with worse issues. We're organized much better than those guys and we have unlimited access to the best hardware available.  We're doing everything right here in centex, I really want us to take the next step with even better hardware, especially with rebolting.  New routing is another topic altogether, i agree with the former administrations decisions, whole-heartedly.

I really have to recommend glue in bolts on this one, thick 316 stainless bar stock.  There are lots of manufacturers that make them, my favorite being Bolt-products out of Germany.  Throw a 316SS quick-link and steel carabiner and you're good to go.  The SS quick-link makes things easy to service down the line, and keeps the quick-link and the glue in from having any kind of a galvanic reaction.  The quick-link and the carabiner will be in contact but the carabiner will likely wear out from the rope quicker than it would from the quick-link.  Steel carabiners are cost effective, which is most important because in a perfect scenario, you'd want those to be quickly and easily replaced.  I don't know that theft is a concern on that cliff, but if it is, a dab of loctite should keep thieves at bay.

Here is my recommendation:

Two 316SS crux monster 12mm barstock bolts: http://www.bolt-products.com/ProtectionBolts.htm

Two 316SS 3/8" quicklinks: http://www.climbtechgear.com/quicklink-3-8-stainless/

Two captive pin carabiners: http://www.climbtechgear.com/steel-carabiner-with-captive-pin/

OK, sorry for the long email.  All this being said, if you guys just want to run up there chop the ring and go with plated, that's cool too!  I hope that cost isn't a determining factor in this decision as much as the time the work takes.

Cheers y'all!

-Vinny

[Joel Schopp]

Leave it to Vinny to open the can of worms discussion.

I'll say that the bolts on this particular climb are fine and don't need replacing. 

As for bolt replacement when it is needed, CTM has adopted a no chop hole reuse policy.  For wet areas we recommend, and will buy, stainless steel glue ins.  For dry areas we will use our stock of plated hangers and enough new plated Powers 1/2" bolts to install them.  We have found these to have good lifetime in dry areas and good solid reliable use in the field.  After our current stock of plated hangers is exhausted all future equipment will be stainless steel.  We think there is still a place for mechanical bolts due to their relative ease of installation, but have nothing against glue-ins. 

I'm personally very happy to see Climbtech coming out with the wave bolt glue-in and someday maybe with the legacy removable mechanical bolt/hanger.  I expect that over time we are likely to transition to these two products as our standard practice.

-Joel

[Vinny]

Yeap, sorry, lets go with that.  Definitely not trying to open up a can!

Bolts are good to go, lets keep it that way!  Thanks for chiming in Joel, all that makes perfect sense to me.

-Vinny

[John Hogge]

Matt’s seminar on extraction/hole-reuse is this Saturday.  After that we encourage some rebolting projects. The routes with most sketch bolts I can think of:

 

                No Recess (cool route left of Learning to Crawl)

 

                Ivy League (awesome route left of Burning Sensations, which is the newish “Bastards in the Brothel Direct”)

 

                Gang Bang (yeah the start is hosed, but you can do a fun aid to bolt 1, via belayer jumping off the landing ledge).

 

Please post routes you think ought to be rebolted soon.

 

Thanks!

--John

[Tommy Blackwell]

John:

Wasn't there a bolt partially floating out of the hole on Nobody's Hero? Or is my memory incorrect?

Tommy

[Matt Twyman]

All,

I am sorry to do this, but apparently the blocks we wanted to work on were part of an historic quarry that the city wants to preserve.  Who knew?

Fortunately, they proposed a new area that will work quite nicely with faster access.

Now, park at the Spyglass Access.  Walk down to meet up with the main trail.  Turn right and walk ~ 100 yards.  Look for signs.  We'll be in the creek bed.

30.256165, -97.788363

Please share this with other you think will be attending but may not be on any of the mail lists.

thank you for understanding.

Matt

[m...@danielsadventure.info]

What about Short Term Memory Loss on Frankenstein Wall?

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G LTE exclusively from Sprint

[Matt Twyman]

fyi... we are also close to debuting a hardware database along with a problem reporter.  Anyone will be able to submit problems for any route.  To be assigned "Wall Champions" or other members in the maintenance community will then assess the request and maintain it as needed.

Further, current status reports covering all hardware on a wall will be submitted to the database by the wall champs.  This will give us the opportunity to generate various reports that we can offer land managers and assign periodic review cycles.

all part of a master plan that starts with this class.

until then though, try using this form to submit your suggested routes/bolts to rework.  Very simple form of what we'll be getting.  I'll be happy to make the spreadsheet this form dumps the data into available upon request for those who'd like to take ownership of particular requests.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1-Gkg6W7lDpiXDMt_XQ-UiPE4R_DNuCG24eDO9JlK4wA/viewform

Try it out.  Hopefully this will help to give a place to consolidate such requests and offer us a means for monitoring & assigning owners.

matt

[John Hogge]

Yes.

 

Another one: Blood of the Dead.

[Matt Twyman]

Looks like a fair chance of rain tomorrow but great weather sunday.
Really dont want to push it but curious what those who are attending would prefer.

[Matt Twyman]

No change in plans.
Game on!
Just bring light rain gear.
Let's do this then go climbing.

[Matt Twyman]

Anyone had a chance to try out the reporter?