Beehive DRW Fail

[Joel Schopp]

Today some climbers including Grant Isaacs were out at Beehive climbing on the new Wave Glue Ins at Beehive wall on DRW.  The climbers climbed to the third bolt and took.  The tension of the rope caused the first two bolts to pop out of the wall.  Nobody was injured but everybody was obviously very rattled.  Grant reported that the glue had the consistency of dry-wall. 

There are two things I want to do here.  The first is I would like to get to a consensus root cause of the failure.  The second thing I'd like to do is institute a policy to avoid this happening again in the future.  The third thing I'd like to do is to have someone go out and re-install the removed bolts and do some level of pull testing on the rest to assure they are in fact set.

What I would like to avoid is blaming any individuals.

For the root cause there are three likely scenarios:

1) Inadequate cure time for the glue

2) Inadequate mixing of the glue

3) Bad glue

It is worth noting the weather has been unusually cold which can extend cure times.  According to the Facebook post the bolts were installed on the 30th, which would have given them 8 days of cure time.  I'd like some confirmation on what type of glue was used, where and when the glue was purchased, how it was stored, how it was mixed, and the exact date and time it was installed. 

As to making sure this doesn't happen again I'd like us to come up with a consensus on what specific glues are acceptable for glue-ins.  I'd like us to clearly state policies on storage of the glue after purchase and expiration of the glue.  I'd like us to lay out cure times at various temperatures before we reopen a route to the public.  I'd also like us to state a standard test before reopening a route (ie both feet against the wall pull the bolt straight out as hard as you can with no movement).

-Joel Schopp
President, Central Texas Mountaineers

[Liang Wu]

Whoa that's scary; glad to hear everyone was okay. Was the third bolt also a glue-in and basically only held in place because it was loaded in shear and not outward tension? Though overhung, the first portion of the route isn't severely so; I can't imagine the outward pull force on the first two bolts to be more than a fraction of body weight when the belayer takes...

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[Loren Graham]

I've bolted with glue in on many routes and every day with my construction company. Two things, the first portion of the glue shouldn't be used, and given more than one failed I would guess the high moisture content of that rock like urban assault requiring extended period to dry or use a compressor to blow out moisture. Still if the route setter used epoxy they should have seen a color change and body weight would have never been able to cause this. Im not here to point fingers but I would love to check this route out and test my theory. If hilt 150 is used and we see the reaction, I'm worrying if the rock is the issue not the epoxy or the method. I'm so glad no one was hurt and look forward to the information that is learned from this.

Sent from my iPhone

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[Gmail]

Loren your insight has to be seriously useful. We've been talking about this separately in committee, but I feel and I think RC would appreciate this type of test. I'll do it with young that's cool. The color change is something I spoke about in committee and I also mentioned that I'd like to know what a faulty tip color looks like. Wonder if we can screw up a tip and test that in a hole. 

Adam Mitchell

Rock-About.com

In...@Rock-About.com

512-415-0804

[Loren Graham]

All epoxy color change is different. I like Hilti for that reason, it's not hard to see the change. But given the softness of that rock do to the water content the epoxy will not hold even if it hardens because it will not bond with the rock because of the water. It could be because of the hole size with the given epoxy. Hilti spec 1/16 larger and up to an 1/8 but no more. It's very easy to use a 1/2" bit for a 1/2 wave glue in and think all is good but if the rock is soft you can easily get a 9/16, 5/8 or larger

holes with a 1/2" bit. I experienced this on urban assault and had to use 5/8 glue in. It's tricky and there are many factor involved and we just need to figure all option. It would be nice to know the type of epoxy, if I know that I can tell if it actually did harden by looking at it. Oh, I'm back and climbing and I'll be finishing my route at NS soon. Adam need to get that gear, thank you for getting it for me while I recovered.

Sent from my iPhone

[Tommy Blackwell]

What glue was used?

Some glues have rather narrow  application temperature ranges. 

Checking the glue's specifications and Austin's temperature on the day of installation would be helpful. 

Sent from my iPhone so no telling about my spelling. 

[Matt M]

Given the description of the glue being the consistency of drywall I'd immediately look into improper mixing as the culprit.

We need to know not only the type of glue but what container - 10oz coaxial caulk gun or larger "side by side" like the hilti gun?

- Nearly all acceptable glues I know of reach full cure in 24 hrs.  Even in cold conditions (40F) my fav glue reaches full cure in 75min.

- I believe some glues are NOT meant for use in cold environments because they cannot achieve the exothermic reaction needed to cure properly.  

- Wave Bolts were an EXTREMELY TIGHT fit in a 1/2in hole when I was using them.  I know Vinny got the specs tiger so they fit better but I'd want to know what size hole was used.  One of the benefits of the Wave and Titt Bolt is that in the properly sized hole they hold loads without glue., even in axial pullout.  These bolts popping out under body weight or less sound like the wrong sized hole was used or soft rock resulted in poorly sized holes.  This should be discovered on a dry fit though.

I've had a 10oz coaxial malfunction and fail to push both mixtures out.  You can catch it by lack of a color change.

As Loren points out, you need to discard the first several pumps of mixture until it is mixed and consistent so if only the first two bolts had issues it may be that there was no discard done.  It usually takes me at least 4 FULL PULLS to get a good mix (if not more) but a single bolt hole only takes MAYBE one pull of glue if not less.

Cleaning Holes is super important with glue adhesion.  They need to be blown (not with your mouth!!) and brushed AT LEAST 3x each.

I've heard of bad glue with Simpson on the climbing boards.  I stick with Epcon A7 as the color is less offensive than Hilti Red.

Loren and I have used a LOT of Glue Ins at Med Wall with zero issues.  They simply require more care and are not "plug and play".  Done correctly tough, they're a superior bolt.

Matt

[Matt M]

Also, after I Glue a Route I leave the fixed rope in place and do all my clean up and packing.  I will usually jug or rap the line after cleaning to check the bolts (cures are typically about 35min for me).  I will also check the discarded glue in my holster bag to see that it hardened properly (that which mixed).

I actually have a tube or two of glue that I let expire (last month).  I could put together an instructional video on proper gluing for the CTM to use.  Detail all the tools and techniques I use etc?  Any interest in this?  Won't be Pro Quality but certainly tolerable on YouTube ;)

On Saturday, February 8, 2014 6:25:19 PM UTC-6, Joel Schopp wrote:

[Matt M]

Couple more thoughts on this (back from my ride).

- Proper Glue doesn't "dry", it chemically hardens due to heat.  This is why temps play a factor in cure times.

- A Damp Hole can cause issues, not related to curing but related to the glue bonding to the rock.  I've drilled limestone and had a chalky paste come out rather than the usual white dust (all this "we're dry in texas" talk related to SS is true on the surface but limestone holds subsurface moisture a LOT longer - even in areas where it's not "drippy"  hence all the 5-piece cones/threads rusting)  Anyway, cleaning a damp hole is a PITA and extremely hard to do.  Loren has it spot on that the only really good way to do it is use compressed air (not from a can but REAL high PSI stuff).  In my pasty hole I scrubbed it it death and then used a 316SS mechanical bolt.

- The description of "like drywall" could also be describing just the surface of the glue.  Can we get info on if the glue around the shaft was solid?  A poorly cleaned out hole, particularly in soft rock, will form a loose dust layer around the interior of the hole that the glue bonds to rather than the solid rock.  This, combined with an oversized hole that prevents a mechanical "locking" of the bolt could explain the bolts sliding out rather easily.  Again, cleaning the hole is essential to a good bond.  NO BLOW TUBES (your breath adds moisture to the hole which ruins your cleaning efforts) 

rimg0082a.jpg

[Matthew Markell]

Sounds about right. 

 

Chris, is the AC100+ a Black/White combo?  It looks very similar to the A7 I use with finished grey color.  

Just for accuracy since this is a technical discussion, I think it's important to note that AC100+ Gold is NOT an epoxy.  While we all often refer to the stuff as "Glue" or "Epoxy", from a technical standpoint, AC100+ Gold is a vinyl ester, not epoxy and there IS a difference.  For climbing purposes the strength is kinda of moot (epoxy is stronger) but the CURE TIMES can be vastly different.  Pure epoxies typically take much longer (24hrs) to reach full cure than the vinyl esters (AC100+) or epoxyacrylates (RedHead A7). 

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Chris Vinson <ch...@climbtech.com> wrote:

Hey Guy

So we got more information this morning and a couple guys are on the way to fix the first anchor point and patch bolt holes this morning. 

Just so everyone has the facts straight I'd like to give everyone the full rundown.

Grear bought the epoxy from ClimbTech, it was fresh and not close to the expiration date.  He went to replace the first couple rusty bolts and over drilled the first two holes to 5/8", the holes were clean and the rock did not show any signs of moisture.   Overdrilling to 5/8" is why they came out of the wall under minimal tensile load when Grant took at the third bolt.  In a 1/2" placement they wave bolts would have held, luckily they were over drilled.  This is NOT to say that they should be over drilled in future placements, the 1/2" hole is ideal as it keeps the bolt in place while the epoxy cures…since this route was not overhung, the decision was made to install them in a larger diameter hole.

The caulk gun used apparently broke the seal on the back of the tube, they did not notice this as it was applied to the bolt hole.  The epoxy was not mixed properly and the epoxy did not set up.   See attached for the AC100 epoxy tube.

In an attempt to turn this potentially very dangerous situation into a positive one, ClimbTech will make an installation video, that will show installation.  I think its an ideal way to turn this negative into a positive thing, learning from a mistake is, in most cases, the best way to keep it from happening again.  

Again, thank god no one was hurt, we will do our best to educate future installers 

Thanks,

Chris Vinson

Marketing & Sales Manager

CLIMBTECH

7303 Burleson Rd.

Suite 901

Austin, TX. 78744

Phone: 512-308-6440 x 109

Fax: 512-308-6393

www.climbtech.com

www.climbtechgear.com

SPRAT Certified Rope Access Technician

NATE Certified Authorized Climber

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[chris.m.vinson]

Ok, hopefully the dust has settled from this so that we can assess what happened and prevention for the future.  Informational video was shot last weekend and will be finished up after this weekend to educate people on installation but also best practices outside just the work done on the rock.  We did the spinner on Lipo and Elephant man.

First things first, there was a clearly marked "Do Not Climb Route Under Maintenance" sign posted at eye level directly under the route in question.  It was taped to the wall.  It was found later, the next day, on the ground directly beneath the route with a rock on top of it.  My first thought would be to come up with a CTM sign for rebolters, maybe in color and with a stake that we can use dry erase markers to let climbers know the name of the route that has been rebolted.

Signage, perhaps, was not visible in this case?  It could have fallen?  Grant, did you or anyone in your group see it?

-Vinny

[Matt Twyman]

I have a sign I typically use.

will send in a second.

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[Matt Twyman]

or not.  must have the template on my home computer.  have printed signs in my car.  will give to Vinny when I see him today.

[chris.m.vinson]

Here is the ClimbTech video of proper wavebolt installation as promised.

Share if you can:  http://vimeo.com/98966318

Hope you like it!

[Karl Guthrie]

Very nice

Sent from my iPad

[Matt Twyman]

Professional!

Way to go Vinny & CT crew. LT11 did a great job editing. I seem to remember some out takes that I'm glad y'all remedied. ; )

Matt Markell has that talk dialed. That's how he do. 

Stitching the send train / gang bang together was bad ass. What a fun day too. 

Thanks for improving our crags and climbing standards. 

Cheers

Matt

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Sent from my not so smart and not so big phone. Possibly with one hand, or maybe with a headset. Please enjoy grammatical errors.

[Joel Schopp]

Love the video!  Posted to the CTM facebook page.  You should also submit it to the Mountain Project / Access Fund School of Rock http://mountainproject.com/v/fixed-hardware-bolting--anchors/108741891

[Vinny]

They know about, making changes sometime this week i was told.

[John Hogge]

That video is as good as it gets. The Greg Brooks stuff and the series of climbers is a great touch.

 

From: ctmb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ctmb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joel Schopp
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 3:41 PM
To: ctmb...@googlegroups.com
Cc: ClimbTech Gear; Grear Wilson; Grant Isaacs; Eric Patrick
Subject: Re: Beehive DRW Fail

 

Love the video!  Posted to the CTM facebook page.  You should also submit it to the Mountain Project / Access Fund School of Rock http://mountainproject.com/v/fixed-hardware-bolting--anchors/108741891

[Gmail]

Great vid. Wish I could have been there for it. Thanks for having Rock About. 

Adam Mitchell

Rock-About.com

In...@Rock-About.com

512-415-0804