creating routing graph

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 11, 2022, 5:27:46 PM1/11/22

to Cruiser Users

Been using cruiser for navigating for several years. Seems to do everything I need while still remaining a relatively simple app. I also follow and use Osmand but this app has grown into something that can be difficult to comprehend.

Just updated to cruiser 2.1.2 from cruiser 1.9. I am at a loss as to how to create the routing data from the pbf file. What happened to the "create graph" menu pick under the "routing" menu in the desktop version?

thx for help

Kevin

Emux

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Jan 12, 2022, 4:12:44 AM1/12/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

GraphHopper dropped support of offline routing and Android compatibility.
(and it does not work with Android scoped storage)
https://github.com/graphhopper/graphhopper/issues/1940

And it constantly changes its public API, so it is impossible to maintain graph creation in Cruiser.
If you want to create graphs, please see the instructions in Cruiser website.
You can create offline routing graphs with mapsforge-creator or GraphHopper 1.0.

But it is better to use BRouter for offline routing. Installation instructions:
https://docs.kurviger.de/app/offline_routing

--
Emux

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 12, 2022, 10:05:16 AM1/12/22

to Cruiser Users

thx for the reply.

Is there a simple mapsforge-creator.zip file to download to create the routing data?

I have to admit I'm confused as to what is going on with cruiser version 2.

Creating routing data from a custom pbf required some level of skill for cruiser version 1. I was able to do

this since I have a electrical engineering degree. But for most people its was beyond their ability.

(I create a custom pdf file of a tri-state area so i can route across state lines)

Which was was quite simple.

1. I used BBBike to create custom pbf.

2. Then cruiser desktop to create routing data.

I even was able to osmfilter and osmconvert as part of my flow to create routing files of the

entire United States. By filtering road data only keeping the high level "motorway" down to

"secondary_link" I created a very sparse routing data network. I could the route across the

entire USA in a matter of seconds. I don't need residential roads while traveling.

Now with version 2, the skill level required is much higher. Is cruiser version 2 only intended for developers to use?

Does anyone actually download cruiser from the google app store and use it? I'm at a loss as to what is going

on with what used to be my favorite navigation app.

I suppose I can just remain with cruiser version 1. It works quite well. But is this the end of the

road(no pun intended) for Cruiser for the average person?

thx

from a very sad cruiser user.

Emux

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Jan 12, 2022, 10:11:50 AM1/12/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

As mentioned above, it is better to use BRouter offline routing.

It has cross border routing and you can customize the profiles.

Installation instructions:
https://docs.kurviger.de/app/offline_routing

- Download BRouter app
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=btools.routingapp

- Run it and select storage location
- Zoom / select the regions to download the routing data

- Select BRouter (offline) in Cruiser settings

--
Emux

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 12, 2022, 10:27:34 AM1/12/22

to Cruiser Users

thx.

I will investigate.

Emux

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Jan 12, 2022, 10:35:40 AM1/12/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

Applications can not do anything about GraphHopper library.
It is GraphHopper decision about Android support and offline routing.

In the future GraphHopper may be removed completely from Cruiser.

So please use BRouter for offline routing.
Now it is the best supported offline router on Android.

--
Emux

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 12, 2022, 12:32:14 PM1/12/22

to Cruiser Users

Got Brouter working. I have to admit that was painless.

Playing with it but it seems to work fine.

I guess the only thing I will miss is being able to do an

accurate route 5000km in only a few seconds by using the

sparse routing graphs I was creating. But I will admit that this ` is

not what I do on a normal basis. Typically I only route a few hundred km

at a time. But it was fun to play with very long routes and seeing them

completed in a few seconds.

Cruiser is the most elegant routing app in my opinion.

Clear, simple, and to the point.

I still play with osmand, and it works quite well, but in my

opinion its an example of

"design by committee" and "creeping elegance".

thx for your help.

Emux

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Jan 13, 2022, 3:37:42 AM1/13/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

Thanks for the kind words!

If you have ideas for any improvements in Cruiser,
please create new topics and write your thoughts.

I can check to see what is possible for the future.

--
Emux

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 14, 2022, 12:59:04 PM1/14/22

to Cruiser Users

It's always temping for an engineer make suggestions. We will improve it to the point

making it impossible to use. I can't make any suggestions at this time. I gravitated to

Cruiser because it was easy to learn with out a manual(good measure of software quality)

If 15 minutes I understood the whole app. And I do really like Osmand,. But there is

no way I could ever teach my wife how to use Osmand with out us getting divorced.

Cruiser has everything for it's stated purpose of navigating from point A to B but no more

than necessary. Has the ability to select maps and graphs and you have both 2d and 3d

map projections. All organized in a menu system that simple to master. I'm a retired

Electrical Engineer and worked for Motorola for 30 years. Mostly the semiconductor

group designing the chips that go into cell phones. I've written a lot of software but

mostly what I would call in the "small". Little chunks of software to test a small section

of a cell phone or to achieve some mathematical purpose. Never written any large

piece of software. Too much complexity to manage. I'm going to keep following

cruiser. Just keep doing what you are doing.

I did a test route using the sparse graphs I make for graphhopper. Has the entire

USA road network in a 545 megabyte file . But residential streets are left out.

Route from Bangor, Maine to Seatle, Washinton, 3356 miles(5401km) computes in 12 seconds

on my low end phone. And the route is accurate. Only a couple miles missing to

complete the route at the start and end of the route. For some reason I get a kick out

of that ability.

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 14, 2022, 1:44:09 PM1/14/22

to Cruiser Users

Soon as I wrote that I did think of one thing. As you add more abilities and complexity

to Cruiser the options and menu system will necessarily get more complex. I've seen

in some apps the concept of a simple mode switch. Simple more would be ON by default.

Just selecting units, language, and maps/graphs to download. If simple mode

is off then the full menu system and options are accessible. This would give you the

ability to give us "power" users ability to play with and test the app, but keep it simple for

the average user. This frees you from having to make what decisions about what to

hide from the average user. When the app is installed the default would be to have

simple mode ON. This is likely the only suggestion I will ever make.

Example: the "map" "info" and "graph" "info" the average user would be confused with,

but us power users could have some use for that.

This would also give you the ability to add something to Cruiser that is speculative or

experimental that us power users would test and play with but the average user

would not see.

Regards

Kevin

Emux

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Jan 15, 2022, 5:37:57 AM1/15/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

> the concept of a simple mode switch

Thanks for the suggestion, it is an interesting idea that I could examine.

OsmAnd is an excellent app with many features using OpenStreetMap data.
Of course it has a company that support it and many developers to write new functions.

Cruiser has only 1 developer and I try my best. :)

--
Emux

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 16, 2022, 12:08:27 PM1/16/22

to Cruiser Users

Been playing with Cruiser 2.1.2. I like it. Found no issues so far.

Brouter seems to work mostly fine.

Found I have to keep my routes shorter that what I used to do with graphhopper else

I hit a timeout limit or some kind of node count limit. This is not a problem. By

repeated use of "extend route" I can build any length route I want.

Occasionally with brouter I get a route calculation terminated

with "error backtracking". The only way around this seems I have to

move way point a few miles. So for now I will remain with Cruiser 1.11

until brouter matures a little more.

Kevin

Emux

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Jan 16, 2022, 12:10:50 PM1/16/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

> Occasionally with brouter I get a route calculation terminated
with "error backtracking".

Can you share a route example (start / end) that has this result?

--
Emux

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 16, 2022, 1:51:53 PM1/16/22

to Cruiser Users

update: if I shorten the route, "Brouter: error re-tracking track" problem also goes away.

So none of these seem to be real issues.

But for the more average user.

The "time limit", "node count", and "error re-tracking track" message should probably

be presented by Cruiser as a "please shorten route" message.

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 16, 2022, 1:55:49 PM1/16/22

to Cruiser Users

The route was 210 mile (336km) route verified by grapphopper.

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 16, 2022, 2:06:08 PM1/16/22

to Cruiser Users

While shorting the route eliminated the problem, If "error re-tracking track" message is

not supposed to occur, then the clue is that it is triggered by long routes, but the

"time limit" and "node count" triggers did not occur yet.

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 16, 2022, 2:30:52 PM1/16/22

to Cruiser Users

Did the same route on the Brouter web client. It works fine.

I exported the gpx track file.

Starts as

.

then ends as

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 16, 2022, 2:36:38 PM1/16/22

to Cruiser Users

That's from my house to Boone, North Carolina.

Why you up so late?

Kevin

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 16, 2022, 2:40:40 PM1/16/22

to Cruiser Users

Oh yeah.

I'm using cruiser 1.11

It's the only one that I can use both graphhopper and Brouter.

Perhaps I should try in Cruiser 2.1.2.

Kevin

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 16, 2022, 3:19:02 PM1/16/22

to Cruiser Users

This might be an example of "simple mode" vs "expert mode"

In simple mode the user would get the message "shorten the route" or add "via point"

But in expert mode the real Brouter message would be presented.

Emux

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Jan 17, 2022, 5:29:44 AM1/17/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

> Did the same route on the Brouter web client. It works fine.

BRouter website works differently from its Android offline app.

See more details here: https://brouter.de/brouter/offline.html

"BRouter always does it's best on the quality, but has a processing time that scales quadratic with distance, leading to a limit at about 150km in air-distance, which is enough for a bikers daytrip."

Usually for very long routes, it helps all routing services to add intermediate via / shaping points.

--
Emux

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 17, 2022, 2:56:05 PM1/17/22

to Cruiser Users

Agreed.

Most times I do have a preferred route.

So I do use shaping/intermediate points.

Which removes all issues.

Probably should be cautious getting advice from me.

I'm a bit of nerd and like to play around with these apps

and explore the limitations. But the limitations I find

are not real issues.

Case in point:

I created an obf file for the entire USA. Contains

all roads minus the lowest level roads(residential)

Using Osmand 4.11 my phone did a route from Bangor, Maine to Seattle, Washington

3300 miles, about 5280km. Phone did the route in 90 seconds.

And the route looked good. Meaning it appeared to be the

same as the online routers I try. But the first few miles and the

last few miles are not created of course. I have no idea

why I do this. Just playing around I guess

I finally upgraded to Osmand 4.11. I have a new respect

for Osmand. Someone did some major cleaning up. The

menus are much better and simpler.

Kevin

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 18, 2022, 1:23:32 PM1/18/22

to Cruiser Users

Yeah, I'm aware how a long route greatly increases the search space.

I assume Brouter does not use contraction-hierarchies.

And as I said, I do make use of shape/intermediate points.

But 150km is quite a limit( I know 150km is just an estimate and really depends density

of the road network in the search space).

But that means if I want to plan one days worth of driving I have to get

really involved with with several intermediate via points. Likely missing the

best route. A days driving for me can be as long as 8 hours x 60mph.

480miles (768km).

That's the reason I generated the sparse grapphopper graphs.

Ignoring the residential roads, I can route plan, and create an accurate route

in less than a second for a 480 mile route. I just have to fill in the last couple

miles at each end.

To plan my days driving. I know I could do this online then copy the gpx track file

to my phone. But I prefer to be able to do that from my car even If I don't have

a cell tower near by. It also gets lets me get around grapphopper not being able to create

a route across multiple graph structures. So I have a now great route planning tool and

I don't need cell tower access. Not sure if I was solving a real problem,

but I saw a way to do it, and I liked the technical challenge.

I guess someone could generate sparse Brouter data. Then a route planing app

could be created that would work well even though Brouter does not use

contraction hierarchies. Again, I'm introducing a lot extra junk here. Not sure

if this makes sense, or if anyone would use it. But that's what engineers like to

do is create unnecessary work just for the challenge.

But the technical challenge seems interesting.

Sorry I'm so wordy here.

Kevin

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 18, 2022, 1:57:30 PM1/18/22

to Cruiser Users

This could be part of Cruiser. A route-plan menu, using sparse graphs.

If the route plan is acceptable, could click on a button and Cruiser would

fill in the couple miles at each end.

Again, I'm generating extra complexity. Which is not always a good

thing. So a judgement would have to be made if anyone really needs

this.

I think the reason this works so well for me is.

1. Most residential roads end in a dead end.

No connection to any other part of the graph.

2. At least in the USA, it's generally always true

that to change from a (motor_way, primary, secondary road)

to a different (motor_way, primary, secondary road) tertiary roads are

never involved.

If in Europe this not the case, then occasional a detour could occur

as the router avoids residential roads making the route a little longer in distance but not

necessarily longer in time. But if using a shortest time algorithm then

this is a non issue. But this has never happened

to me so far. So I think the idea has merit.

It's going to boil down to if you want you monetize Cruiser. If it remains free, then

competing with other apps is less of an issue.

Again, sorry for being so wordy.

Kevin

Emux

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Jan 19, 2022, 5:16:56 AM1/19/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

> It's going to boil down to if you want you monetize Cruiser. If it remains free, then
competing with other apps is less of an issue.

Cruiser platform is already used in other projects.

Kurviger Android app (I develop it) is based on Cruiser platform:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=gr.talent.kurviger

More details about Kurviger: https://kurviger.de

--
Emux

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 19, 2022, 3:01:50 PM1/19/22

to Cruiser Users

Yes I am aware of kurviger.

But kurviger uses grapphopper, so Im sure it will work fine.

Trying to plan a trip from my house to Knoxville.

straight line distance 121 miles.

Very sparse area of the country. Very sparse road

network. Using the online routers, the same roads are used

a distance of 132km. Using cruiser2.1.2 desktop the route failed

with "route not found" I put a via point on road that I knew the router

would select(based on online routers) and the route succeed.

And was calculated in less than second. This is a very trivial route.

For the above test Cruiser desktop is set to use Brouter online.

If I set to OSRM the correct route is found 132.9km

Using Crusier 2.1.2 on my phone, the issues are worse.

Using the same start and end, I got the "re-tracking" error.

I added a via point on the expected route that OSRM gets.

I still get "re-tracking" error.

I added a second via point. So now I am selecting roads every 40km.

Know I am the router. All Cruiser is doing is coloring in the roads

I select with a blue line.

At this point Cruiser2.1.2 is not usable.

I can't be the only one running into these issues.

The Brouter segments were downloaded by brouter just a couple

days ago. So I'm sure they are up to date.

It goes without saying everything is fine I cruiser1.11

I'll keep following to see where this goes.

Good Luck

below is the track file with the via point that made cruiser desktop

work. But this was not sufficient for the phone version of cruiser.

Delete the via point and cruiser desktop should fail to route a 132km

route.

Kevin

<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8' standalone='yes' ?>
<gpx version="1.1" xmlns="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1 http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1/gpx.xsd">
<metadata>
<name>20220119_144242.gpx</name>
</metadata>
<rte>
<name>20220119_144242.gpx</name>
<rtept lat="35.026042" lon="-84.19988">
<name>hotspot</name>
<sym>Flag, Green</sym>
<type>start</type>
</rtept>
<rtept lat="35.373649" lon="-84.304625">
<name>tellico</name>
<sym>Flag, Blue</sym>
<type>via</type>
</rtept>
<rtept lat="35.804602" lon="-83.98799">
<name>hemphill</name>
<sym>Flag, Red</sym>
<type>destination</type>
</rtept>
</rte>
</gpx>

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 19, 2022, 3:13:07 PM1/19/22

to Cruiser Users

Below is export track file that all the online routers generate.

and Cruiser desktop generated if I select OSRM as the routing service.

the previous gpx file was a ""route" export.

<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8' standalone='yes' ?>
<gpx version="1.1" xmlns="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1 http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1/gpx.xsd">
<metadata>

0709

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Jan 20, 2022, 3:38:09 AM1/20/22

to Cruiser Users

Cruiser 2.1.2

Kevin route: Start > End.
By offline B_router by profile *Kurviger-highways.
https://youtu.be/wWEUlievqpg

Kevin route: Start > End
By online OSRM.
https://youtu.be/DCSddcgAumo

Kevin route. Start > Via > End
By online OSRM.
https://youtu.be/gABLpWgMcxM

* BRouter Custom profiles.
Find in the Kurviger forum.

https://docs.kurviger.de/app/offline_routing
https://forum.kurviger.de/t/app-offline-routing-brouter/649/19

Op woensdag 19 januari 2022 om 21:13:07 UTC+1 schreef km14...@gmail.com:

Emux

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Jan 20, 2022, 4:46:19 AM1/20/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

You need to understand that the routes are calculated externally by online or offline routing services.

Navigation apps are not responsible for route calculation or removal of support from routing services. :)

--
Emux

0709

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Jan 20, 2022, 5:15:47 AM1/20/22

to Cruiser Users

Right Emux.
However, if the simplicity of Cruiser could be combined with a direct routable osm map, this would be particularly attractive.
Osmand does have these routable maps, but unfortunately the entire app structure is imo too complicated.
@ Kevin. The fact that there is even a risk of a divorce when using it, is probably not what the Osmand developers intended ;-)

Op donderdag 20 januari 2022 om 10:46:19 UTC+1 schreef Emux:

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 21, 2022, 12:33:25 PM1/21/22

to Cruiser Users

The BRouter online routing web client has the same problem

that occurs when I use Cruiser with brouter offline routing.

Its easy to reproduce. To cause the problem, the secret is to use car-fast profile.

BRouter seems more stable using "trekking biking" profile. But I get

a quite a few "re-tracking errors" when using "car-fast".

And this is reproducible on the web client. This is for a very short

route. Perhaps the BRouter route engine is OK, maybe something

strange in the "car-fast" profile.

If cruiser is really intended for bicycle only then is seem stable.

But I do long trips in the USA sometimes.

For now I will stay with Cruiser 1.11. I'll use the BRouter engine some

but I'll primarily use graphhopper. Got a friend that lives i Waco Texas.

Using the sparse graph i created for graphhopper. My phone calculated

a 1006 mile route in six seconds. I compared the route to the route

calculated with openstreet map using OSRM. Other than a few miles missing

at the beginning and the end. My phone came up with the exact same route.

I like that ability while I'm on the road.

Reguards

Kevin

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 21, 2022, 1:14:38 PM1/21/22

to Cruiser Users

The flow I'm using for these experiments is.

1.

osmconvert64 -v .\src\%1.pbf --out-o5m -o=%1.o5m

2.
osmfilter -v %1.o5m --keep="highway=" --keep="place=" --out-o5m >%1_roads.o5m

osmfilter -v %1_roads.o5m --keep="place=city =town =village" --keep="highway=motorway =motorway_link =trunk =trunk_link =primary =primary_link =secondary =secondary_link =tertiary =tertiary_link" --out-o5m >%1_roads_sm3.o5m

3.
osmconvert64 -v %1_roads_sm3.o5m --out-pbf -o=%1_roads_sm3.pbf

4. Then is use cruiser desktop 1.11 to create the sparse graph from the _roads_sm3.pbf

What amazed me the first time I did this is the whole process takes only about 20 minutes.

15 minutes to create the sparse _sm3.pbf.

Then Cruiser desktop only takes about 5 minutes to create the sparse graph.

This is for the entire USA!! When I get near my destination, I switch to the non-sparse

graphs.

Think Ill do this for the entire planet. Creating a sparse graph of the planet.

Then I can route plan any where in the world

on my phone. It's quite amazing to see an accurate 5000km route calculated on a phone

in less than 30 seconds. (minus a couple miles of routing at each end)

I've done the same thing for Osmand. The memory requirements and long run times

to create a sparse USA.obf have prevented me from doing it for the USA. I suspect using SQL really

slows things down and requires so much memory. But i was able to

create a sparse usa_south_sm3.obf. Im using osmand 4.11, which was a big improvement

in usability. I might even be able to teach my wife how to use it.

I can now route 3000km routes in a about a minute on my phone with Osmand.

This exposes the limitation of Osmand however.

For Cruiser I use the non-sparse usa.map file.

But I use the sparse graphs to route in the usa.map.

For Osmand, I create a sparse obf. Which makes routing very fast.

But the road network presented to the user is also sparse since the

obf contains both road and graph data. Mapsforge separates these two

concepts which opened this possibility to me.

Cruiser still out performs osmand in route calulation time, but its nice to be able

to plan a one day trip and not resort to a web interface on either app.

I know this is quite convoluted what i am doing here. But the phones have become

so powerful I was sure it could be done.

Regards.

Kevin

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 21, 2022, 1:31:02 PM1/21/22

to Cruiser Users

As a retired engineer, when ever something clever is done to make an improvement

for the customer, you have the potential of getting a patent. If there was a unique

may of combining sparse and non-sparse graphs to route fast on a phone, you guys

could get a patent issued. Then you get license fees if anyone else does this.

Might be something for you guys to purse.

Kevin

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 21, 2022, 1:54:50 PM1/21/22

to Cruiser Users

Sorry to be talking so much....

Even if you think the idea not patent-able. Just the fact we discussed it here establishes

prior art making it impossible for someone else to patent it and gives you the right to

use it. You can't patent something that's been done before. But to make that defense stronger,

you may want to pursue it somewhat and

document your thoughts. This will protect you from someone else pursuing a patent

and forcing you to pay license fees. One obvious way would be to release a version

of Cruiser using this concept. This being in the public domain will provide a strong defense for

prior art. Even if the idea eventually goes no where. I've got seven patents from my days

of designing pagers and cell phones at Motorola. You would not believe what is considered patent-able.

Kevin

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 21, 2022, 2:34:42 PM1/21/22

to Cruiser Users

Just saw your comments...

"You need to understand that the routes are calculated externally by online or offline routing services.
Navigation apps are not responsible for route calculation or removal of support from routing services."

While we both know that Brouter is external to Cruiser. To the common user this

is not relavate. Ease of use and performance are the only things that matter.

A naviagtion app that cannot plan a one day trip in a car without the user

picking each highway with a multitude of via points, while usable, it will miss

the majority of the market. Perhaps I am underestimating the bicycle navigation

market. But the car navigation market expects the ability to choose a start

and end point at least 400 miles apart. And if possible, be able to plan and

entire week of driving for a long vacation. It's not like this is a challenge

I've been doing this with Cruiser for at two years.

I'm a little confused as to what this means. So all offline routing will eventually be

removed? Can only route with cell service of wifi? So eventually cruiser will

display a map and put a blue dot where I am, and that's it?

Two years ago my daughter went on a trip to Scotland. She knew her phone would not work

there. When she had wifi she used Whatsapp to call me.

She wanted to ability to walk, get on buses, use uber, explore the area,

look at a map to find places. This includes routing sometimes.

Without getting lost. And has no cell service or wifi sometimes.

I helped her install Sygic. Pre-downloaded the maps she would need. Had routing ability.

She loved it. And used it many times when traveling to other countries.

I thought about hooking her up with Cruiser next time she does a trip.

I guess I'll tell her to stick with Sygic.

You do realize that being lost and not having cell service or wifi are highly correlated.

If you have cell service or wifi, you can just ask someone that if very likely standing

next to you and hopefully speaks your language.

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 21, 2022, 6:34:33 PM1/21/22

to Cruiser Users

Well, I've made some progress. I was able to do a route of 603km

and no re-tracking error message.

Seems to be related to configuring route parameters.

There are three menus to configure the route.

As installed I get re-tracking errors, but by playing with this

ridiculous menu system, I seem to get it to work.

1. In Cruiser.

a. car

b. foot

c. bike

2. In BRouter

river

treking-ignore-cr

hiking-beta

car-fast

shortest

vm-forum-liegerad-schell

rail

fastbike-lowtrafic

fastbike

trekking-noferries

treking-nosteps

dummy

fastbike-asia-pacific

treking-steep

moped

fastbike-verylowtraffic

car-eco

3.also in brouter

foot_short

foot_fast

bicycle_short

bicyce_fast

motorcar_short

motorcar_fast

using these three menus I can found a setting that allow much longer routes

without re-tracking errors. Now only get "time out" for a very long route.

one of my longest routes was 603km.

I'm having trouble reproducing it. I must take better notes.

By the way, when someone says "I must take better notes"

that is a sign of bad software.

I think I just was leaving Crusier set to car fast and did all my configuring

with brouter. I'll continue my experiments. But I also notice if I set

cruiser to bicycle, but Brouter too car-fast , motorcar_fast, I get the

retracking-error message again. So there seems to be a relationship

there.

Ever seen a youtube video of a pigeon pecking on buttons randomly trying

to learn how to get food. I have become the pigeon.

Kevin

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 21, 2022, 7:30:08 PM1/21/22

to Cruiser Users

Well. It seems to working quite well now.

I set Cruiser to car-fast

Brouter to "car_fast" and "motorcar_fast"

I did a route from my house to my friends house in Texas

714mile (1142km). BRouter did the route in about 50 seconds.

That's impressive. That was on my high end phone.

On my low end phone I got a "time out" termination.

So It seems planning a days car route might be doable.

1. What ever the defaults are after installation, they don't work.

2. BRouter menus do not indicate what the current settings are so I

have no idea what they were that caused the problem.

This should be fixed in BRouter.

3. Not in a millions years will I try to teach my wife how to use this

app. I would set it up for her, but she always seems to change settings

and then I get to play system administrator for her phone. And if I don't

have my notes with me, I would be not able to fix it with out another days

worth of hunting.

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 21, 2022, 7:36:02 PM1/21/22

to Cruiser Users

Oh yeah. What ever I did here, needs to be done to the BRouter web client.

https://brouter.de/brouter-web

It has the same problem. I select car-fast. Try a route of 100 miles

and I get "re-tracking error".

Emux

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Jan 22, 2022, 4:25:19 AM1/22/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

> What ever I did here, needs to be done to the BRouter web client. https://brouter.de/brouter-web

> It has the same problem. I select car-fast. Try a route of 100 miles and I get "re-tracking error".

As BRouter (offline or online) routing is done externally on their Android app or website,
it is better to inform them for any calculation problems in their repository and forum:
https://github.com/abrensch/brouter
https://groups.google.com/group/osm-android-bikerouting

About offline routing in Cruiser, I can include it as long as there are available offline routing services.
GraphHopper offline routing is uncertain, as it does not work with Android new forced storage (#1940).
So now on Android, apps can only use BRouter app for offline routing.

OsmAnd has nice offline maps and routing, but its license does not permit their usage in other apps.

However, there are other nice offline maps / routers / navigators on Google Play, like HERE:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.maps

--
Emux

0709

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Jan 22, 2022, 6:21:10 AM1/22/22

to Cruiser Users

So we stick with Cruiser_Brouter (Pro).
A download combi of both Brouter data and maps by a (borderless) coverage selection in squares like BRouter would this be possible ?
Emux as you are the expert mapsforge developer do you consider this as useful or do you reject such out of hand?

Op zaterdag 22 januari 2022 om 10:25:19 UTC+1 schreef Emux:

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 22, 2022, 8:02:21 AM1/22/22

to Cruiser Users

I've done enough experimenting that I think BRouter is usable in

both Crusier1.11 and Cruier2.1.2. Below is what seems to work

for me.

1. In Cruiser I always keep the route selection set to car.

2. In Brouter I use profile "car-eco" to get a route that prefers highways.

Same as shortest time. So far "car_eco" generates a route

the same as "car_fast", but works on long routes.

And assign this selection to motorcar_fast in BRouter

3. In Brouter I use profile "shortest" to get a shortest distance route.

And assign this selection to motorcar_fast in BRouter

4. In Brouter, profile "car-fast" should be avoided as it will sometimes fail on routes

as short as 86miles (137km) with the re-tracking error. And this

is reproducible on the brouter web client.

When I do the above I can do rather long routes reliably.

Kevin

Emux

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Jan 22, 2022, 8:23:14 AM1/22/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

> A download combi of both Brouter data and maps by a (borderless) coverage selection in squares like BRouter would this be possible ?

It is better to not mix different things: maps or routing or poi data.

There are many Mapsforge map providers (with their themes):
https://github.com/mapsforge/vtm/blob/master/docs/Mapsforge-Maps.md

And BRouter handles better its routing data separately via its app.

You can always open multiple map files.
Or try BBBike to extract custom areas.

--
Emux

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 22, 2022, 11:57:44 AM1/22/22

to Cruiser Users

I've used BBBike quite a lot in the last few years. Last time I used it was to get a pbf of a

three state area. Use Cruiser desktop to create the graph. Then download the .map files

of the three states. Gave me seamless coverage. I'm doing that kind of stuff a lot less.

But I have thought it would be nice if BBBike would give the option of creating the

graphhopper graph for the pbf that is being extracted. That would help

people that don't have computer skills.

Last week I download the grapphopper graph data for us_south.zip.

from https://download.kurviger.de/graphs/north-america/

And pair that with us_south.map from mapsforge. So I have

seamless coverage for all southeast USA. Which is all I will ever need.

This week I create a seamless sparse graph of the entire USA using the pbf

of north america from http://download.geofabrik.de/north-america.html

I create the graphhopper graph from the pbf. It's only a 534meg file.

This only took about 10minutes using Cruiser1.11 on my laptop computer.

Now route plan across the entire USA. I then I just download the

mapsforge map files for USA.

So on my $50 phone I can route plan 6000km in less than a minute,

Then switch to non-sparse graph if I want to complete the route. But

I don't bother with this. Do this when I near my destination.

Travel anywhere in the USA and never need cell or wifi access.

This all runs fine on my $50 low end Android phone.

Graphhopper not being able to route across

multiple graphs is quickly becoming a non-issue.

I started working at Motorola in 1979.

First chip I designed was a bipolar chip with about 100 transistor on it.

Me and one other guy did the whole chip. When I retired we were designing

complete systems on silicon. 32 ARM embedded with a complete CMOS

cell phone on a chip. A team of 300 people.

There were so many other blocks on that one piece of

silicon, it was hard to even find the 32 bit ARM when looking under a microscope.

Won't be long a cell phone will have the entire planet stored locally.

Enough of stories.

Kevin

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 22, 2022, 2:12:54 PM1/22/22

to Cruiser Users

Doing some google searches I got a few hits on car-fast and re-tracking error.

Apparently others have seen this.

I compared car-fast and car-eco, only one line is different.

The max velocity.

Also I looked at profile "shortest". Appears to be only for hiking and biking as

it if perfectly happy to route down a foot path. That what the profile indicates.

i tested it, and sure enough, the routing engine will use foot paths to shorten the route.

So far as I can tell, the only two profiles intended for cars are car-fast and car-eco.

And since car-fast has problems, that others have seen, car-eco is the only

profile that can be used for cars. Meaning, shortest time is the only route that can

be created as far as I can tell. But that what I use anyway so its not an issue.

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 22, 2022, 2:34:17 PM1/22/22

to Cruiser Users

vmax for car-fast is 160km/hour (100mile/hour)

Apparently the turn cost are high at that speed causing

some cost function to go negative, which terminate the route engine.

The cost function uses the weight of the car, the air drag coefficient,

the rolling friction in an apparent an temp to calculate fuel usage.

vmax for car-eco is more reasonable 90km/hour and

seems reliable so far.

I created a profile based on car-eco changing only vmax to 30km/hour

The created route avoided highways so perhaps this

a way for a car to route and avoid highways. Don't think

I need this but someone might want it.

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 22, 2022, 2:53:07 PM1/22/22

to Cruiser Users

I keep thinking of stuff.

Given that car-eco is the only usable profile for car navigation

and that the other profiles will route down foot paths and

forest service roads that are only passable with 4-wheel drive( I tested this),

you need to put a warning, restriction, or disclaimer in the software to prevent this

from happening. This is especially true if you monetize he app. You could

be liable for injuries or deaths.

Kevin

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 23, 2022, 11:40:38 AM1/23/22

to Cruiser Users

I've got a question out something strange about mapsforge maps which

I noticed over a year ago. Maybe someone here can answer.

I've been in the habit of downloading

us_midwest.map

us_northeast.map

us_pacific.map

us_south.map

us_west.map

about once a year.

I don't really use the state maps any more.

Using the above solves the problem of graphhopper not routing across

multiple graphs. But I'm getting of topic now. Each time I up data, the

maps of course have grown a little as more data gets added to the maps.

Maybe 15% a year. But us_pacific.map, overnight when from 663 meg-byte .map file

to a 5192 meg-byte .map file. I know this as I keep the old .map files around for

a while. I can view both the old and the new, but I see no differences.

It's perfectly usable, and does not seem to slow down map rendering, but on my

low end phone, it uses just about all free space I have. I added an external SD card

so this is not a real issue.

Perhaps this is a correct result.

But my intuition tells me this is not right. Us_pacific.map

only contains Hawaii and Alaska. .pbf file for this region is only 128MB, Yet

became a 5192MB .map. There must to be at least 4GB of data in the .map

file that is not relevant.

region 2020 .map size 2022 .map size

------------------- ----------------------- ------------------------

us_midwest 1007MB 1278MB

us_northeast 634MB 929MB

us_pacific 663MB 5192MB (this entry is suspicious)

us_south 1700MB 2080MB

us_west 1340MB 1634MB

This also shows up in the US "state" .map file for Alaska

Alaska has the smallest road network in the entire USA

yet is a much bigger .map file compared to any other state

by a huge margin. I know it's not just the road network, but even

the lakes and rivers look the same in the small and large version

of us_pacific.map

If I've asked the wrong group this question, direct me to the correct forum.

Thx.

Kevin

Emux

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Jan 23, 2022, 11:58:37 AM1/23/22

to cruise...@googlegroups.com

If you mean map files from Mapsforge server
they are created automatically by mapsforge-creator with OpenStreetMap data from Geofabrik.

You can create a topic in Mapsforge discussions to inform the case.
However someone must find free time to check that map creation.

--
Emux

Emux

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Jan 23, 2022, 12:02:45 PM1/23/22

to Cruiser Users

Please do not just change the topic / mail title.

Create new topics to discuss different things.

--

Emux

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 23, 2022, 12:04:57 PM1/23/22

to Cruiser Users

Thx. Will do.

Never used a forum before.

Still learning.

km14...@gmail.com

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Jan 23, 2022, 1:00:08 PM1/23/22

to Cruiser Users

Did some experiments with the "car-eco" routing profile.

Changing only the "vmax" paramter, which in this profile

seems the main parameter, I created the following and got these

results.

car-160kmph (same as car-eco)

car-120kmph vmax 120

car-90kmph vmax 90

car-60kmph vmax 60

car-30kmph vmax 30

1. car-160kmph --

prefers highways

create good routes

fails on routes as short as 137km due to negative cost function (apparently)

but seems to not fail on routes less than 100km.

2. car-120km and car-90kmph

prefers highways

creates good routes, though slightly different when comparing the two.

tested up to routes of length 700km have not had a failure yet, other than a 60 second timeout.

3. car-60kmph

prefers to NOT use highways, but will if desperate.

routes seems reasonable.

tested up to routes of length 700km have not had a failure yet, other than a 60 second timeout.

4. car-30kmph

tries extremely hard to NOT use highways to the point of doing crazy things.

such as: if the routing algorithm decides it must use a highway, it will exit the

highway at the next interchange, then back on the highway the next interchange.

oscillating back and forth and will use tiny residential roads if it can.

5. Using the "car-eco" profile but changing the kinematic car model

but leaving vmax set to 160kmph.

set car weight down to 100kg

set car efficiency to 0.9 from 0.7

set car air drag to 0.01 from 0.4

These changes made in an attempt to eliminate the kinematic model being used in the route selection.

Prefers highways

creates good routes.

works on routes of length 700km have not had a failure yet other than 60 second time out

BRouter seems to be very usable. The selection of profiles is confusing.

Have to pick a profile then assign it a selection that aligns with cruiser(that's the best I can explain at this time)

I still do not completely understand the interaction between cruiser profiles and

brouter profiles. I never changed the crusier profile. Just left travel mode -- driving,

then in brouter picked a profile and assigned it to motorcar_fast.

Some profiles will route a car down hiking trails, 4-wheel drive trails, but

the profiles based on car-eco don't seem do this. Seems like a good addition

to Cruiser.

Someone that understands these profiles better than me should

investigate further.

Fun stuff.

Kevin

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