New question, requesting input. Why should we?
Bowtie
seems to be throwing a fit about.
We've got rules. We can't figure out a way of making them more clear-
cut without either looking at every bit of potentially sexually
explicit material on the internet, or without making the rules more
restrictive... or removing them altogether. The latter isn't an
option.
And unfortunately, although everybody seems to think we should find a
way of making them more clear-cut, nobody is offering a suggestion as
to how to do so.
So right now, I'm taking a tiny step back, and wondering, why is this
such a big ordeal? I think it's fairly obvious what we want and
expect, behavior wise, on the network. I think our intentions are
fairly obvious. The "gray area" comes in where people can't figure
out, for themselves, exactly what is allowed under these rules.
Why is this much discussion necessary on the subject? Why is there
such a need to be so very exacting? The general feel we're trying to
give off is, "No sex. If something over Crossroads seriously turns
you on, then it shouldn't be posted, or you shouldn't be exposing
yourself to it." Given that, then answer me this. WHY should it be
any other way? WHY should we allow it?
Now, if the other admins opt to read that statement and, on some
level, disgree with it or with the way I put it without discussing it,
then I apologize, but I am sick and god damned tired of seeing
bitching about these rules.
So to those of you who, for whatever reason, want the freedom to post
whatever you want, whenever you want, or the freedom to get seriously
explicit or sexual either in or out of channel, WHY? Why is it so
important to you when you can simply go elsewhere for that kind of
activity? Why is it so important to you?
Bearcat
you brought the hammer down like a bomb after years of lax rules,
threatened insta-bans and scared the shit out of people.
I'm not saying that was a "bad" thing to do or that anyone is at
fault, but this nitpicking may be the result.
As i said to Jakkal, the rule is great. Let it stay the way it is.
If people have a question on what is apporpreate they can ask an admin
an know that their ass is covered provided that they follow the admins
ruling.
The rest of this i'm leaving alone, because it's not important to me
to post "erotic" stuff.
MoonWind
Oditogre
to author'...I'm guessing Bowtie just got an email from me? I didn't
save the text, so if you could post it to the thread, I'd appreciate
it.
Bearcat
freedom curtailed. As such they will either push to see how far they
can go or feel more comfortable with set, detailed limits so that they
don't over step them when tempted. That is also what all of this need
for exacting is about. It's human nature. It's non-human nature too.
MoonWind
Tria...@gmail.com
Why not?
Bowtie
On Feb 13, 6:58 am, "Trian...@gmail.com" <Trian...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "WHY should we allow it? "
>
> Why not?
>
Because it's our network? Because this is already a massive problem
in the furry community, and I absolutely will not stand by and watch
it become a problem here? Because it disgusts me? Because people can
post it elsewhere with no problem?
Bowtie
I fell into the same damn trap. I posted like 4 replies .. apparently
all to Bearcat. Below is your reply to me, and after that, my
response to you.
********************************************************
I can't remember if usenet is supposed to have replies above or below
quoted text. Whatever. The answer is, at least in my case, because
it's not worth a split community.
I rarely discuss / post 'explicit' stuff, but once in a while I do.
Most of the people I do it with don't IM, or don't use an IM I do, and
in any event, IM != group chat, and it's a fair bother to have to use
an IM client vs. just over IRC. In the same vein, there is no IRC
community, save Furnet or perhaps the idlefest that is firelion
(formerly lycanthrope.org) that even vaguely caters to therianthropy,
and neither of those really touch those I normally come to crossroads
to chat with. It just seems insane to me that what goes on in PM
(especially stuff that, while risque, is basically R-Rated at wosrst)
is, as Bearcat said, worthy of an instaban, especially since so many
people are basically entrenched in the Crossroads community. It's a
bit hard to swallow, I guess. Rhetoric and over-reacting about the
actions of George W. Bush aside, it's like if America turned into a
dictatorship in the Cuban sense in a matter of days...vague ruleset,
minimal admin involvement, but the threat of the harshest punishment
still looming if you happen to screw up in the wrong place at the
wrong time. I admit I would be at least a bit less miffed if I'd seen
you and Jakkal on for a combined total of more than 3 hours in the
last year, but that's not the case so it comes across as that much
more bitter that the rules are handed down by an intangible supremacy
a la 1984, and I only hear about it through rumor until something as
severe as a split happens, and only then do I see it in text, from the
horse's mouth, from the admins. PM'ing the admins is just not enough;
is setting a topic and locking it, or updating the MOTD once every few
months really so much to ask?
If you insist on severe rule changes (as some seem to perceive this)
or severe enforcement changes (which is what I think this really is),
at least step out from behind the curtain once in a while and discuss
it in public, like we're doing here, -before- it turns into a split
community.
/Odin, miffed to say the least.
/Unpleasantries.
********************************************************
Severe enforcement change. And since that change was one of the
things that drove Rish to take off, it has been adjusted accordingly.
And, again, NOBODY was banned for the incident that was directly
responsible for the formation of that "rule." Things would likely
have gone on indefinitely the way they were if it hadn't happened,
actually. So whereas the administration is definitely at fault on
some level for not paying closer attention, the users... specifically
the ones who have been around long enough to know that porn, etcetera,
has never been acceptible, are more at fault, and finally, the users
who really carried shit away are at the highest level of fault. In my
opinion.
Since all the fingers have been pointed, now, let's move on.
So basically what you're telling me is that we should just let
everything go on like it was... because it's *INCONVENIENT* for users
to have to take their disgust ELSEWHERE??
How about "no?" So sorry we're making it inconvenient for you people
to get your sex. Maybe y'all should go out and get social lives, and
then maybe you'll get some real-life ass.
Tria...@gmail.com
Oditogre
bit in terms of PM but I understand where you're coming from and don't
really mind, I would really like to see more admin involvement, and I -
need-, not want, to see more admin involvement to the extent that it
involves this severe level of rule enforcement. I'm not going to log
onto crossroads until I see a solid ruleset posted or until I know
that learning / getting to understand the rules does not involve first
guessing which nickname Jakkal is currently RP'ing with and then
shooting a PM =:-P
Oditogre
Ok, that didn't make much sense did it? After a few minutes of
thought-gathering...what I'm saying is, without documented, posted
rules or accessible admins, especially when you have threats of severe
punishment vaguely floating around the rumor mill, it leaves you
permanently on eggshells as a user (which sucks), and it leaves you
powerless as an op when certain incidents occur and you can't post a
link or quote the MOTD to say, "You are not allowed to do that and if
you'd read the rules you'd know. Please stop". It's lose-lose, and
more than any other thing, that's the one that I think really, really
needs to be ironed out. This wasn't a problem in the past because
admins were almost always on. Recently that has changed, and not
surprisingly, all the wheels have started to fall off.
Bearcat
On Feb 12, 8:05 pm, "Bearcat" <therianthr...@feline-soul.com> wrote:
> As i just posted to Jakkal, i think people want exact rules because
> you brought the hammer down like a bomb after years of lax rules,
> threatened insta-bans and scared the shit out of people.
>
I replied to that point in one of the other threads. I'm losing track
of what, and where. The summary is: Really bad stuff happened on the
network. I soon thereafter found out that it was suddenly commonplace
to post or discuss explicit material, or even have netsex on the
network, whether in public or private. It has NEVER BEEN THIS WAY.
The rule has always been there. The admin .. and me in specific...
I have automatic problems trusting *anybody* with *anything.* That's
what I get so houndy, and make so many rules. But back when I took
off, I decided that most of our users had been around for years, and
back then, they never did anything against the rules. So I thought I
could trust them. Well, the userbase hasn't changed much. The big
thing that changed is that the admins stopped showing up much, if at
all. I know I'm at fault to that. But for Christ's Sakes, people
don't go whipping their dicks out at work when the boss takes time
off!
The level of disappointment I got has been disparaging, to say the
least. So I decided to enforce the rules as quickly and efficiently
as I knew how. Thus, the instaban threat. The ironic part is that
NOBODY, including the offenders that *started* this whole issue, was
banned.
> If people have a question on what is apporpreate they can ask an admin
> an know that their ass is covered provided that they follow the admins
> ruling.
>
Now, as for asking the admins to approve or disapprove links, no.
Because people *will* play op-hopping. They'll bounce from one admin
to another looking for approval. I don't want these people doing
that; you're ALL old enough to make decisions as to what should and
should not be appropriate. And most all of us have been brought up
with the same type of morality or ethics. If somebody can't figure
out what won't swing, then maybe they forgot some age-old lessons they
should know. Or maybe being deeply involved with this type of
sexually explicit behavior on the internet has completely desensitized
their ability to figure out what's right and what's not.
I don't know. What I do know is that we can't make the rule any more
clear than it already is, and that everybody on Crossroads should be
mature enough to be able to figure out where the line is. And if
they're worried about posting something... then just .. don't ..
post .. it. Or post it elsewhere, off the network. Because NOBODY
NEEDS TO SEE IT THAT BADLY.
Bowtie
Generally with the name "Bowtie," as well.
And frequently .. actually .. every time I *did* go into #crossroads
or #therianthropy... I told the people who were all "come back more
often," to message me if they ever had questions, issues, or just
wanted to talk or whatever. The invitation was always open.
Guess who messaged me?
NOBODY.
The administration is accessible, and always has been. E-mails are
posted in the logon news. We have LJ's that many of you read.
Invitations have been made to most users to comment directly to *me*
if they wished. And, we're on IRC often, just not in the same
channels you're in. Whoop-tee. So once again it's a matter of
convenience. We have to sit there and idle, breaking our own rules,
just so you feel you can talk to us. Yeah .. no. That just doesn't
make any sense at all.
And .. finally .. Yeah, we're working on strict rules, but we all have
these things called "busy lives," which doesn't leave us a lot of time
to dedicate to making everything perfect immediately. I work up to 12
hours a day, Rish is trying to start a business, and Jakkal's
constantly busy elsewhere; she hasn't even been RPing much lately, but
she *is* on more than the rest of us. But when the rules get posted,
we will be looking for certain individuals to uphold them, because
obviously, everybody having channel ops doesn't work, especially when
some of the ops *break* the rules they *know* existed but just
conveniently "forgot about" over time, and the *other* ops didn't say
a word until some kind of *major* incident happened.