Criterium

[Simon Dickson]

Been using crossmgr for Time Trials for a couple of years now and love it. I'm keen to test it for some criterium racing.

The format of our race is we have 4 or 5 (A-E grade) simultaneous categories on track at the same time. Groups start about ~30 seconds apart, A grade goes for 60mins + 2 laps, B is 50 + 2 etc.

How am I best to set this up in crossmgr?

For race options

Set "Autocorrect lap data" option by Default - ticked

Road Race Finish Times - ticked

Estimate Laps Down Finish Time - ticked

In the categories

Do I put the start offset, then the race time and the 2 laps in?

We allow lapped riders to continue so I guess that gets ticked.

Anything else I need to consider?

Cheers

Simon

[Jonathan Rosen]

I just finished scoring 5 criteriums using a similar setup; 40 minutes plus 2 laps. I estimated the 1k laps at 2 minutes, so in the category manager I put in 45 minutes for the race time.  After we completed 3 laps, we looked at the projections and then fixed the lap count in the category manager, assigning the total number of laps.  This prevented Crossmgr from re-calculating the remaining lap count during the race. 

Results (crossmgr.com)

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[Mark Erzen]

Hi Simon,

I don't use  "Road Race finish times" in the criterium.  I think that's just a preference on how the times are reported on finish, but I give everyone their own time rather than giving them the same time as the group they finished with. 

For the start waves/categories - I don't think the 60 + 2 idea works.  I think that option is either 60 minutes and Crossmgr estimates the number of laps or you enter the number of laps and it will override the time.  What I usually do is set the race to 60 minutes and don't show riders a lap count until we're 15 minutes or more into the race.  Then I look at the lap times and CrossMgr's estimate laps and I add two laps to lock it in.  At that point, I'd start showing the field the lap count.

Yes, put in the 30 second offsets, and the time (60, 50, 40, etc).  I think that's a bit challenging to display so many lap counts to the different fields because they'll mix on the course, and your lapped riders will be hard to track.  I do maybe two lap counters at most, but the structure of your race might be more manageable than what I do.

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 12:55 AM Simon Dickson <simon....@gmail.com> wrote:

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Mark Erzen
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[Edward Sitarski]

Correct that "Road Race Finish Times" gives riders in the same "group" the same time.

Riders are considered part of the same group if they arrive within 1 second of each other.

A new group starts when the gap exceeds 1 second, and all the riders in that group get the same time as the first rider in the group.

This is how timing is done for stage races (eg. Tour de France) is not done in one-day races, like Criteriums.

The idea is that riders in the same "group" in a stage race are assumed to have been working together and all get the same time for fairness.

It also discourages finish sprints for groups that are not in contention for the stage win as they all will get the same time anyway.

The thinking is that it makes the finishes a bit safer, as there will only be one sprint for the leaders, and everyone else can roll in.

Of course, the finish order determines the rank.

Regarding "60min +2laps"-type policies for criteriums, this is problematic for free lap cutoff.

The UCI rules do not specify the criterium free lap cutoff, but in USA/Canada, it is covered by the national federations.

The USAC Free Lap Rules says that free laps are only allowed before the final 8K of the race (USAC 3D5(d)).

The Cycling Canada Companion Guide says no free laps in either the last 5km or 5 laps to be determined at the event.

So, especially for short crit courses, we need to know how many laps remain than a "+2" to manage the pit.

The most common method is described by Mark: set the race time, then after 15 minutes or so, adjust the number of laps to get what you want.

Then you can start the lap counter whenever you need to (say, from 9 to go).

There is an easy way to set the number of laps.  On the CrossMgr Record page, click on the race status bar.

This brings up the SetLaps dialog that allows you to change the laps without going into the Categories screen.

The dialog also shows all the stats (eg. Winner Time, Race Time to Go, Laps to Go, etc.) for the new laps you enter.  This allows you to make an informed decision.

You can always change your mind later, or enter a blank to tell CrossMgr to continue to go back to estimating laps by time.

I recommend you start CrossMgr, do a Tools|Simulation and explore the feature.

I council organizers to run crits purely on time (like CycloCross).

Perhaps it was easier in the past to do Time+Laps, but it doesn't work for the free lap cutoff.

Most riders prefer a fixed time and it helps keep the day running on schedule.  Besides, it's 2024: we have computers that can do the math ;)

I won't tell you how many times this format has made my life difficult as a finish line official.

For example, the format was "50min+3laps", and the PCP says "I want the lap counter up at 9 to go, with no more free laps at 5 to go" (true story ;)

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Edward Sitarski

[Jonathan Rosen]

Mark Erzen and I used CrossMgr to score and manage the Pan-Am Masters Games criteriums. They published the events as "40 minutes plus 2 laps" which caused confusion amongst a few racers.  As officials, we had no trouble setting the lap count after the 3rd lap in the race. At that point, we could clearly see in CrossMgr how many laps would get us to our target completion time, and we promptly set the lap count in the category manager.  However, we still had racers mistakenly trying to add laps to the counter, even though we made it clear in our pre-race announcements that the lap counter would be displayed after 3 laps.   

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[Kim Wall]

The BHPC old guard insist on running n minutes + 1lap criteriums, in
spite of my objections.

Lap counters aren't especially useful to the riders in our events, as
the wider range of rider/machine performance means that most of the
field get lapped, often multiple times.

So instead we display the elapsed race time, and riders get the
bell/flag as appropriate. Working out your phase angle to the leader
and whether you're going to get a bell lap is an exercise for the more
mathematically inclined rider.

On the CrossMgr side of things, we fudge the race duration once we know
when the leader's last lap time is.

This mostly works, but I greatly prefer fixed duration/distance races
and time trials.


Kim.

> <https://assets.usacycling.org/prod/documents/USA-Cycling-Free-Lap-Rules-and-Guidelines.pdf> says that free laps are only allowed before the final 8K of the race (USAC 3D5(d)).

> The Cycling Canada Companion Guide

> <https://cyclingcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Companion-Guide-2024-EN-FINAL.pdf> says no free laps in either the last 5km or 5 laps to be determined at the event.

> <mailto:crossmgrsoftwa...@googlegroups.com>.

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> Mark Erzen
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[Simon Dickson]

Thankyou all for your very helpful bits of information.

Lots to think about such as if there is a willingness to move to a pure time format like CX.

As I generally am one of the riders I'll just set it to a time longer than the race and then get the comms to write down the time they give the final rider the bell for each category and use that as the race time.

Cheers

Simon