Why can't I boot into Z80 Cromix?

[Aron Hoekstra]

My Z-2D system is currently only has installed: ZPU, 16FDC, and 2 64K boards. I am using a Gotek and am booting the 865C1127_IMD.hfe image. Here's what I get:

Cromemco RDOS 02.52
;B
Preparing to boot, ESC to abort

Standby

Floppy = 1, Hard disk = 2
Enter major root device number: 1
fda = 0, fdb = 1, fdc = 2, fdd = 3
sfda = 4, sfdb = 5, sfdc = 6, sfdd = 7
Enter minor root device number: 0

I enter 1 for floppy, 0 for fda. After that, I see activity on the gotek reading different tracks for a few seconds, but then nothing - it just hangs as far as I can tell.. I'm just connected to the console port of the 16FDC. My Gotek is connected using the 5.25" header (not the 8" header).

The memory cards I'm using are the MM65K16S and I carefully followed the instructions for setting one board up as the Cromix System Bank, and the other as User 1 Bank.

Could it be attempting to put the console up on a different port? What else could I be missing?

Thanks,

Aron

[Amardeep Chana]

Are you using 8" images or 5" images? If 8" is the Gotek configured as high density and is the read jumper installed on the 50 pin connector of the 16FDC?

[Aron Hoekstra]

Yes, I'm fairly certain this disk image is 77-track 8". As far as I can tell, the Gotok is configured for HD but I guess I'm not certain. In my IMG.CFG I have an entry for [::1256704].

Here's my 16FDC. I do have a jumper installed, can you confirm it's in the right spot (position 11).

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[Aron Hoekstra]

I may be having a problem with 8" drive images in general. Because while I can boot 5.25" images for CDOS 2.58 (033 from the repository), I cannot boot image #197 which is CDOS 2.58 on 8".

[Amardeep Chana]

You might want to check the alignment of the data separator.  There is a trimmer capacitor used to set the exact frequency to 1.0MHz I believe.  It's pretty important and would impact 8" data rates before it affected 5" data rates if it was off calibration a little bit.

[Aron Hoekstra]

Oh, thanks - that's a really good thought, I'm not sure that I've ever checked that. Will get out the scope tomorrow.

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[Roger Hanscom]

>> I enter 1 for floppy, 0 for fda. After that, I see activity on the gotek reading different tracks for a few seconds, but then nothing

>> - it just hangs as far as I can tell.. I'm just connected to the console port of the 16FDC.

>> My Gotek is connected using the 5.25" header (not the 8" header).

Aron --

Your 16FDC looks fine.

I have had trouble with the Gotek and Cromix.  I can boot CP/M and CDOS from it just fine, but not Cromix.  It's been a while since I've tried, and I might need to go back and give it another try to refresh my memory?  As I remember it, it will boot with the first configuration of the Gotek, but after that, nothing.  My theory (unproven) is that Cromix modifies the Gotek data in some way, so the first boot will work, but subsequent tries fail.

Have you tried to refresh your Gotek content (and configuration?) to see if you are having the same "first boot up" problem?

Roger

[Aron Hoekstra]

I haven't even got it to boot once... I assume you're using the FlashFloppy firmware?

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[Mike Arnold]

Hi Aron,

A bit of a long shot but I wonder if the drivers in that image are for a Persci and the Gotek is configured as a Tandon. I seem to recall that the initial stages of boot (RDOS and the boot loader) are universal and use non-voicecoil seeking but then the drivers will, if so configured, switch to Persci mode. You can verify this by putting your scope or logic analyser on the -SEEK line and looking at the timing between pulses. If they are between 3 and 15ms then the 8in is being driven as a Tandon. If the pulses are more like 100us spacing then it is Persci mode. If it is Persci mode then the FDC is hanging waiting for -SEEKCOMPLETE.

Mike

[Aron Hoekstra]

I checked the data separator alignment, it was off a bit (measured initially at 516khz) - after some adjustment, it's now spot on at 500khz. However, no change in behavior when booting the Cromix disk.

@Mike - I'd like to test your theory on the expected drive types. But checking the pin reference for the 34 or 50 pin interface, I'm unsure which is the -SEEK line? Since the 5.25" pin header is the one I'm using, it'd be easiest to hook the scope up to the 8" header, do you know which pin# it is?

Thanks!

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[Arnold Mike]

Aron

Having a brain failure. Too much time spent on the IMI. Not -SEEK but -STEP.

Doh!

Mike

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[Mike Arnold]

Aron
I forgot to say that the process starts with a restore to track 0. On a Persci, the FDC drops -RESTORE (12) and then waits for -SEEKCOMPLETE (10) to go low. In Tandon mode, it samples -TRK00 (42) and issues -STEP (36) pulses until -TRK00 goes low.
Therefore, if the Cromix image drivers are Persci, you should see -RESTORE go low first. Having said that, Cromix might just do a Tandon-mode restore to track 0 (as this works with both types of drive). I am not sure. When it wants to seek in Persci mode it will issue -STEP pulses at a very high rate (which the Persci buffers) then wait for -SEEKCOMPLETE to go low. Therefore, a seek or restore can cause the boot to hang if the drive is not returning -SEEKCOMPLETE.
The pin numbers above are for an original 16FDC but the diagrams are a bit grainy so I may have mis-read some numbers.
The other complication is that there was a mod sheet for the 16FDC to rewire a number of its pins on the 8in connector to allow it to work with a Tandon. You can tell this because there will be a number of mod wires just below the 8in connector on the board (which I think is J3). So some of the signals may not be on the right pin.
Finally, I guess you have shorted -READY to ground on the 8in connector.
Sorry about the length of this epistle but 8in drives on Cromemco are a bit of a minefield.
Best of luck.
Mike

[Roger Hanscom]

>> I haven't even got it to boot once... I assume you're using the FlashFloppy firmware?

Yes.  My Gotek is hooked up to the 34-pin interface on a "vanilla" 16FDC.  Grounding "READY" (11th position over on the 50-pin interface) is required.  I can work on extracting the image and config. stuff from mine if you think it would help.

Nothing exotic about what I'm using.

Roger

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[Aron Hoekstra]

I found an old topic (https://groups.google.com/g/cromemco/c/asKFejTjEdE) that seemed to indicate that the 1793 controller in the 16FDC can go "flakey". Some indication that the old windowed version (which mine indeed does also have) can cause weird behavior. Swapping out their controller IC fixed their problems. Roger, what version do you have? Do you have a painted over window version or full plastic part?

[Roger Hanscom]

Most of my 16FDC's look just like this one.  Somebody did some bodges on this one, so it won't boot.  Eventually, I'll try to fix it.

The inscription on the 1793 (in case you can't read it in the photo) is:

FD1793B-02

8031 17

Roger

[Aron Hoekstra]

Yeah we have the same style 1793's but yours has an older datestamp than mine. May want to try swapping those chips to see if it brings that one back to life.

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[Roger Hanscom]

The offer to try to extract the content of my Gotek thumb drive still stands.  <grin>

Roger

[Aron Hoekstra]

I'm pretty sure I found the config I'm using on a previous post of yours on here! :)  but wouldn't hurt to share.

On Wed, Feb 28, 2024, 11:18 AM Roger Hanscom <norwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

The offer to try to extract the content of my Gotek thumb drive still stands.  <grin>

Roger

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[Mike Stein]

I've been away for a while, so could you bring me up to speed?

Do you have _any_ working disk drives and can you boot Z80 Cromix at all?

m

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[Aron Hoekstra]

Hey Mike. I do have a working 5.25" Tandon TM-100, however I don't have any 5.25" disks with Z80 Cromix. Nor did I see any 5.25" Z80 Cromix disk images in the repository, though it's possible I missed something.

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[Aron Hoekstra]

And no, I haven't been able to bring up Cromix at all, past that initial boot selection screen.

[Arnold Mike]

Aron

Do you want me to snail mail you a 5.25 disk with Cromix 11.27?

Mike

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[Roger Hanscom]

>> I'm pretty sure I found the config I'm using on a previous post of yours on here! :)  but wouldn't hurt to share.

I'm not so sure.  I can't boot my stuff now.  I get "unable to open console" when I boot floppy (1) and then fda0 (0).

There is nothing wrong with the hardware because I can easily boot CP/M just by switching the thumb drive.

Roger

[Aron Hoekstra]

Though, do you not have a Hotel? I'm wondering if you have the ability to make a 5.25 disk if you could convert it to a gotek-compatible image

[Arnold Mike]

No I don't have a Gotech. Just original old-school hardware.

[Roger Hanscom]

I don't know what a "Hotel" is.  Yes, I have lots of Cromix 5.25" floppies (HD - 1.2 MB), and I can boot them without problems.  BUT, not with this box because the A: drive is a Gotek.  I have to use a second system that has a real floppy as A: .  That's the biggest problem (IMO) with the Gotek.  Once it is installed (if there are problems) booting from floppy is not possible without a major headache.  I use a "System One", and swapping drives is a major project.  With a "System One" you have to completely disassemble the thing to get at the drives.  Hence, my two "System One"s -- one with Gotek and one with four 5.25" HD *real* floppy drives.

Roger

[Aron Hoekstra]

Sorry, my phone autocorrected Gotek=Hotel. What model 5.25" HD drive are you using? Obviously the Tandon TM-100 is only DD.

On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 12:09 PM Roger Hanscom <norwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't know what a "Hotel" is.  Yes, I have lots of Cromix 5.25" floppies (HD - 1.2 MB), and I can boot them without problems.  BUT, not with this box because the A: drive is a Gotek.  I have to use a second system that has a real floppy as A: .  That's the biggest problem (IMO) with the Gotek.  Once it is installed (if there are problems) booting from floppy is not possible without a major headache.  I use a "System One", and swapping drives is a major project.  With a "System One" you have to completely disassemble the thing to get at the drives.  Hence, my two "System One"s -- one with Gotek and one with four 5.25" HD *real* floppy drives.

Roger

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[Mike Stein]

I'm pretty sure the 11.27 Cromix is there somewhere; I sent images of the actual factory diskettes to Udo Munk a while ago but the only thing I can find on his site is https://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/cromix1127.tgz

I'll have a look around; it'd surely help diagnosing 8" problems if you have a running system.

m

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[Aron Hoekstra]

That looks like an 8" image. Was it ever distributed on a DD 40-track 5.25"?

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[Roger Hanscom]

>> Sorry, my phone autocorrected Gotek=Hotel. What model 5.25" HD drive are you using? Obviously the Tandon TM-100 is only DD.

I've had really good luck with the "Newtronics" drives, but I think that they are just re-labeled Mitsumi's.  Model is D509V3.  They have lots of jumperable options including spindle rotational speed and of course drive select.

But, I think lots of HD drives would be OK.  There was even a how-to posted about converting a certain model of 3.5" drive to work as an 8" replacement.

Roger

[Mike Stein]

What format are you looking for?

It is admittedly a little difficult to find stuff in the repo; I did find what looks like 11.24 disks in hfe format, but at a fast  glance no 11.27 (in DD format of course)

HxC 627 and 628 might get you going with 11.24

331 through 339 are also 11.27, but I don't remember what format those disks are

[Aron Hoekstra]

Got a chance to hook up the logic analyzer.. I started this capture right after hitting <return> after entering 1 (floppy major root device), then 0 (fda). I see no activity on the Restore/Seek Complete or Step lines. Just some groups of activity on the Track 00 pin.

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[Arnold Mike]

Whoa! That's not right. Either I have got the pin numbers wrong or the Gotech is having a fit. I would expect step pulses (although they are only a couple of microseconds wide so maybe the LA is not showing them).

I am at a bit at a loss as to suggest what to do next apart from jump on a plane to O'Hare. I will ponder on it and respond tomorrow.

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[Aron Hoekstra]

Roger, here are the Gotek config files that I'm currently using.

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[Mike Stein]

Absolutely; As I said, I still have a set (2 DD diskettes) of original  factory diskettes, plus several backup copies.

Back in the day, most of the systems I installed and worked with were either CS-1s or Z-2s, so I've probably installed at least 50 or so Z-80 Cromix systems from 5.25" DD diskettes. I only recall 2 CS-3A systems (8: Tandon TM848 drive), one of which is in my basement ;-)

I don't know what that file on Udos's site is; I just thought that maybe he'd put the images I'd sent him up somewhere.

Did you receive my other email from abt. 3 hrs ago with links to several 5" images?

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[Roger Hanscom]

This is very puzzling.  I booted Cromix on my floppy System One, and all was well.  I dumped that diskette to an image file, and wrote it, along with FF.CFG and IMG.CFG (both have worked in the past, and both continue to work with CDOS and CP/M) to a thumb drive.  Booting from that seems at least to start.  I get the prompt about floppy or hard drive, and the prompt for the boot device.  I ask for "floppy" (1) and fda (0).  There is a slight pause, and then I get "Unable to configure console".  Huh?  Clearly the console works OK for the cromix boot code to display its prompts.  And this image works when I boot it from a real floppy.  Does anybody know what's going on?  I don't think I've ever seen this particular error message about the console before.  Is there something in the Cromix console configuration stuff that needs to be changed?

Roger

[Aron Hoekstra]

Thanks, I just went through and tested all of those images.. Many produced the same result of hanging after selecting Floppy/FD0. Some through errors, and some didn't seem to be bootable.

Here are the individual results:

331 (bootable) = hang after root device entry
331 = hang after root device entry
332 (another)= Message: "Cannot boot CROMIX"
332 = Message: "Cannot boot CROMIX"
333 = hang after root device entry
335 (croge) = nothing boots
335 (gen) = Message: "No boot", returns to RDOS
336 = hang after root device entry
337 = nothing boots
337 (try1-5)  = nothing boots
338 (1112) = Message "Unable to boot 0001 0 Err-B 34"
338 (1127) = Message: "No boot", returns to RDOS
339 = Message: "No boot", returns to RDOS
627 = hang after root device entry
628 = Message: "Cannot boot CROMIX"

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[Mike Stein]

What format are those images and how did you get them on to 'real' diskettes? Or are you converting to Gotek format?

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[Aron Hoekstra]

Oh! I was just trying to boot them from the gotek since they were already in HFE format. Did you mean try writing them to a physical floppy and boot that? :) That probably makes more sense. I just checked a couple of the corresponding .IMD's and they do seem to be 40-track, DD. I will try writing a few tomorrow and booting from physical media.

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[Mike Stein]

It looks like either the images you're using don't have a boot file or it got lost in a conversion somewhere.

Hope it works; looks like around 50 different images of 11.27, it sure has become pretty complicated. Why those duplicated disk numbers?

I'm totally confused; looks like my senility is advancing. Although I have most of the important OS files on disk I have also used Marcus' collection on occasion with no problems, but now I can't even figure out how to download/extract those files.

How do you download them and put them on a real disk??

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[Aron Hoekstra]

Well with the .IMD versions of those files (code\disks\IMD folder) - in theory - you'd use Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk software from a MS-DOS computer to write them.

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[Mike Stein]

Yeah, just clarifying how you're doing this. IMD format (with disk 1 bootable) was certainly the best way before the Goteks came along, but of course that required a PC capable of writing the FM track, which not everyone has these days; looks like  331 & 332 might be your best bet. TA and .TAR files require an already running system but can be useful for looking at disk contents on a PC. The Goteks are certainly convenient but I think they have added some complexity and potential problems.

I've had one for more than a year but haven't actually configured and connected it yet; guess I'm a purist like Mike A, with only 'real' drives ;-)

FWIW, specifically, a 5.25:DD drive, and an 8" TM848, 5.25 HD and 3.5: HD emulators, 2 x 150MB MFM HDs and 2 x 20MB IMI HDs.

My system is not available at this time; once it is I'll have to look into all this one day.

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[Emil Sarlija]

I'm curious to know which image ends up working as I have previously had exactly the same issue when booting physical 8" Cromix floppies on my Z-1 with Mitsubishi drives on a 16FDC and 256KZ using IMD images from Dave Dunfield's site (I think). I'm watching this thread closely.

Thanks,

Emil

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[Walt Perko]

Hi,

 

I have a Pacard Bell 486 running FREE DOS, it sounds like that should work for converting to or from floppy disks.   

 

Although I do not have my CromemCo boards setup into a cabinet just yet, I do have hundreds of 5¼” floppies … and I’m willing to give it a try. 

 

 

 

 

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[Peter Higgins]

On Thursday, February 29, 2024 at 1:36:31 AM UTC-8 Walt Perko wrote:

I have a Pacard Bell 486 running FREE DOS, it sounds like that should work for converting to or from floppy disks.  

Although I do not have my CromemCo boards setup into a cabinet just yet, I do have hundreds of 5¼” floppies … and I’m willing to give it a try. 

What your system needs to properly write these vintage floppy disks from a disk image:

1. a 360K 5.25" floppy drive. A 1.2M 5.25" drive can be made to work, but it is suboptimal.

2. a floppy controller that is either in the registry of controllers known to support SD mode, or can pass the test shown here: http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/img/

On Thursday, February 29, 2024 at 1:36:31 AM UTC-8 Walt Perko wrote:

Hi,

 

I have a Pacard Bell 486 running FREE DOS, it sounds like that should work for converting to or from floppy disks.   

 

Although I do not have my CromemCo boards setup into a cabinet just yet, I do have hundreds of 5¼” floppies … and I’m willing to give it a try. 

 

From: crom...@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of Aron Hoekstra

[Walt Perko]

Hi,

 

I would think that I should be able to connect a 5¼” 360K floppy to my 486.  It’s the same cable, so I would expect the drive to respond and limit the system to its 360K. 

 

I really don’t remember too much about those old DOS days and hardware compatibility. 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Aron Hoekstra]

Well I attempted writing each of those disks to a floppy using ImageDisk with arguably worse results.. I couldn't even get to the root device selection screen. But I think I must have something wrong in my process, or my drive -- because while I can boot images like 033 (CDOS 2.58) from the Gotek, when I tried also writing that disk to floppy, I couldn't boot it either.

331 (bootable) = Message: "Cannot boot CROMIX"
331 = Message: "Cannot boot CROMIX"
332 (another) = Message: "Cannot boot CROMIX"

332 = Message: "Cannot boot CROMIX"

333 = Message: "Cannot boot CROMIX"

335 (croge) = nothing boots
335 (gen) = Message: "No boot", returns to RDOS

336 = nothing boots
337 = Message: "Cannot boot CROMIX"
338 = Message: "No boot", returns to RDOS

339 = Message: "No boot", returns to RDOS

627 = Message: "Cannot boot CROMIX"

628 = Message: "Cannot boot CROMIX"

I used the TESTFDC that Peter posted and my DD drive passes all tests (I had ran this previously). I can write good DOS disks all day long. In the ImageDisk settings I change Tracks -> 40 and Double Step -> Off, and write. All of them wrote without fail.

I was able to rerun my logic analyzer test (had my GND hooked up wrong the first time):

Reminder, this is when attempting to boot Cromix from the Gotek. Mike already took another look at this and confirmed it's not using Persci mode and that the pattern seems like it's reading the boot sector, jumping to track 10 and then retries a couple times before failing.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cromemco/02b101da6b9b%241768fbb0%24463af310%24%40brainless.org.

[Mike Stein]

I'm still confused: what are the duplicate disk numbers?

m

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[Aron Hoekstra]

In the IMD folder of the repo there are duplicates of the same file numbers - I don't know why. So I tried them all.

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[Aron Hoekstra]

Same in the HxC folder:

[Peter Higgins]

This doesn't explain all your problems, but several of the disks on your list would not be bootable based on their description in the catalog:

https://github.com/cromemcos/m/blob/main/cromemco/code/disks/catalog.txt
For example, disks 627 and 628 appear to be in TAR format?

[Roger Hanscom]

Aron --

If you just need a boot diskette for Z80 Cromix, I'd be happy to snail mail you one.  I think the version that I'm able to boot from floppy is 11.27?  The diskette would be 5.25" HD.  I'm dead in the water as far as booting Z80 Cromix from Gotek for now, but my floppy boot is still functional.

Where are you located??  I'll mail it completely gratis.  Just happy to help out a fellow Cromemco "fan".

Roger

[Aron Hoekstra]

Yeah I'll take you up on that offer. I haven't tried with an HD drive, but it would be nice to have a "known good" disk to test with. I'll email you directly thx!

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[Aron Hoekstra]

I'm starting to think I may also have an alignment issue with my DD 5.25" Tandon drive. This weekend I plan to do some drive swapping and see if I get any better results.

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[Emil Sarlija]

Hi Roger,

Do you have an IMD disk image of your bootable disk?

Thanks,

Emil

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[Aron Hoekstra]

Well, I had a chance to play around an confirm that yes indeed my Tandon drive is bad. I swapped in a known working half-height DD drive from another machine, and it's working much better. So I tried writing a few physical copies out now with that drive (then physically swapping in that same drive to the Z-2D).

I am now getting the EXACT same results as I get from when I try to boot these disk images from the Gotek. Basically it comes up and asks me to select Floppy=1, fda=0 - the he head moves around for a bit like it's doing something, but then the system just hangs. This leads me to believe it's not a gotek problem, but some kind of incompatibility with my system hardware.

Side question: what's 'sfda' and how does it different from 'fda'?

[Peter Higgins]

Definitions for the Cromix device names are provided in the "Cromix System Adminstrator's Manual"

fda, fdb, fdc, and fdd are 8" floppy disk drives "a" through "d"

sfda, sfdb, sfdc. and sfdd are 5.25" floppy disk drives "a" through "d"

[Aron Hoekstra]

Ok so then for these images I should be selecting 4=sdfa. I did try that for one and it produced the same result but will try a couple others.

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[Mike Stein]

What size? 11.27?

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[Mike Stein]

sfda (Small Floppy Drive A) is 5.25 floppy.

fda (Floppy Drive A from the days when 8" was the only size) is 8"

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[Roger Hanscom]

Hi Emil,

>> Do you have an IMD disk image of your bootable disk?

No, I don't.  But I have something close.  In order to make .DSK files for the Gotek, I use ANADISK on an old DOS machine and "DUMP" the diskette.  That has worked well for ITC CP/M and CDOS for the Gotek, but I'm having a problem with Cromix.  I could email the diskette dump to you.  It is right around 1.2 MB (of course).  Do you have a copy of ANADISK?  Maybe there is a way of reversing the process with that application?  I don't know.  I've never tried it.  The mixed formats on Cromemco diskettes has always been a problem!  I could also snail mail you a *real* diskette if you'd like.  Where are you located?

Aron -- Thanks for your address.  I'll get a diskette in the mail for you ASAP.  Please don't worry about paying me.  I'm happy to do it.  Not a problem.

Roger

[Roger Hanscom]

When I tried to start up both my CS-1 boxes to make a Cromix boot diskette for Aron, I had all sorts of hardware problems.  It's been a while since I've turned those guys on.  I got both of them fixed (for now <grin>), and I'm happy to report that I can now boot Z80 Cromix from the Gotek drive.  I have a lot more testing to do, but I was able to boot the Cromix Gotek twice in a row.  My theory (maybe full of holes?) is that Cromix writes to, or modifies, the thumb drive in some way, and a second (or subsequent) boot attempt fails.  So, as a defensive measure, I wrote two image files to the thumb drive.  One has the filetype of .DSK and the other is "xyz.sav".  That way, if the Gotek refuses to boot at some point, maybe I can copy/rename the image files on the thumb drive and recover?  I haven't had to do that .... yet.

Roger

[Aron Hoekstra]

Wow that's awesome news! Can you share which .DSK file you used? I'd love to give it a try, too. Thanks!  Just a thought but you could try marking the file as RO on the USB drive, I think the Gotek generally tries to obey that setting.

On Sat, Mar 2, 2024 at 4:40 PM Roger Hanscom <norwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

When I tried to start up both my CS-1 boxes to make a Cromix boot diskette for Aron, I had all sorts of hardware problems.  It's been a while since I've turned those guys on.  I got both of them fixed (for now <grin>), and I'm happy to report that I can now boot Z80 Cromix from the Gotek drive.  I have a lot more testing to do, but I was able to boot the Cromix Gotek twice in a row.  My theory (maybe full of holes?) is that Cromix writes to, or modifies, the thumb drive in some way, and a second (or subsequent) boot attempt fails.  So, as a defensive measure, I wrote two image files to the thumb drive.  One has the filetype of .DSK and the other is "xyz.sav".  That way, if the Gotek refuses to boot at some point, maybe I can copy/rename the image files on the thumb drive and recover?  I haven't had to do that .... yet.

Roger

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[Mike Stein]

Excellent!

Any chance you could send me a copy of that .DSK file? Maybe that'll finally inspire me to configure the Cromemco as a 2 bank Z80 system and also finally configure the Gotek while I'm at it.

Is it the complete 11.27 Install in 8" format or ??

I should be home for a couple of days, maybe long enough to play a bit.

On Sat, Mar 2, 2024 at 5:40 PM Roger Hanscom <norwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

When I tried to start up both my CS-1 boxes to make a Cromix boot diskette for Aron, I had all sorts of hardware problems.  It's been a while since I've turned those guys on.  I got both of them fixed (for now <grin>), and I'm happy to report that I can now boot Z80 Cromix from the Gotek drive.  I have a lot more testing to do, but I was able to boot the Cromix Gotek twice in a row.  My theory (maybe full of holes?) is that Cromix writes to, or modifies, the thumb drive in some way, and a second (or subsequent) boot attempt fails.  So, as a defensive measure, I wrote two image files to the thumb drive.  One has the filetype of .DSK and the other is "xyz.sav".  That way, if the Gotek refuses to boot at some point, maybe I can copy/rename the image files on the thumb drive and recover?  I haven't had to do that .... yet.

Roger

[Roger Hanscom]

I've rebooted the Gotek image a few times now.  All seems to work. Once it failed to boot from a completely cold start.  I had to "exercise" the Gotek with the RDOS "T" option first.  Then it booted OK from that.

Thanks for the tip about "RO".  I'll look into that.

Yes, what I'm using is the 11.27 image that I copied (with great difficulty) off of an 8" Cromemco distribution diskette 30 or 35 years ago!  I had to copy it to 5.25" HD, and my system didn't like both 8" and 5.25" drives connected at once.  Maybe I was making it more of a big deal than was necessary?  I have a few Z80/Z180 home made SBCs that run at around 20 MHz.  I just wish I could figure out a way to re-work Z80 Cromix to run on one of them.  Running it at 4 MHz seems like crawling to me.

I'll attach the FF.CFG and IMG.CFG files (small).  Would it be possible (or even OK) to post the image file here??  It's about 1.2 MB, of course.  BTW, I'm using FlashFloppy v. 3,23, if that matters.

Roger

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[Aron Hoekstra]

RO was just abbreviation for Read Only. Yes please attach the DSK file here.

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[Roger Hanscom]

>> RO was just abbreviation for Read Only.

Sure!

>> Yes please attach the DSK file here.

I hope that is OK!

Roger

[Walt Perko]

Hi,

 

Thanks.  I’ll give the a peek, see what’s what. 

 

 

 

==============================================================================================
C U L8r,  °|°  Walt Perko  °|°        "Kids ... teach them the good stuff, and they still learn the bad stuff on their own."

http://www.R2Pv1.com/  RoboGuts™ Intelligent content for 3D printing making S.T.E.A.M. education better, easier and more affordable 

 

Experiments to learn how to use various Electronic Components, Structured Computer Programming, Phonemes for Speech &Song in any language, and Art.

                         "The World Needs a New Economic Model"
==============================================================================================

            Sent from the Cyber7

 

 

From: crom...@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of Roger Hanscom
Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2024 6:03 PM
To: crom...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Why can't I boot into Z80 Cromix?

 

 

>> RO was just abbreviation for Read Only.

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[Mike Stein]

Let's find out!

;-)

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[Aron Hoekstra]

No bueno. At least not for me.. just sits there on track 0, attempting to read but doing nothing. I have a replacement 1793 controller chip on order for my 16FDC, I'm really hoping maybe it's just a case of 'bit rot' on that chip. Should have it on Monday.

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[Mike Stein]

Just curious: what were your hardware problems?

m

On Sat, Mar 2, 2024 at 5:40 PM Roger Hanscom <norwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

When I tried to start up both my CS-1 boxes to make a Cromix boot diskette for Aron, I had all sorts of hardware problems.  It's been a while since I've turned those guys on.  I got both of them fixed (for now <grin>), and I'm happy to report that I can now boot Z80 Cromix from the Gotek drive.  I have a lot more testing to do, but I was able to boot the Cromix Gotek twice in a row.  My theory (maybe full of holes?) is that Cromix writes to, or modifies, the thumb drive in some way, and a second (or subsequent) boot attempt fails.  So, as a defensive measure, I wrote two image files to the thumb drive.  One has the filetype of .DSK and the other is "xyz.sav".  That way, if the Gotek refuses to boot at some point, maybe I can copy/rename the image files on the thumb drive and recover?  I haven't had to do that .... yet.

Roger

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[Roger Hanscom]

Hi Mike,

>> Just curious: what were your hardware problems?

Difficult to explain.  The CS-1 with the Gotek wouldn't respond at all to several returns at power up.  Dead.  I was using a 16FDC, 64k SRAM board and the reproduction ZPU board (I think Rick Cini's?).  I tried several different ZPU's and 16/64FDC's.  Nothing seemed to like the SRAM card, so I pulled it and stuck in a 256KZ.  Things started working.  BUT, when I put the reproduction ZPU back in, it worked too.  This morning, I tested the SRAM board in a non-Cromemco system, and it works fine.  I'm now using the reproduction ZPU, 256KZ, and 64FDC.  So, bottom line, I don't know what the problem was.  Tested individually, all the boards in the system seem OK.  Who knows??

My second CS-1 (the one with 4 HD floppies) could start up OK, but booting CDOS or Cromix, I could not INIT a floppy.  Everything else seemed OK.  INIT reported some crazy diskette rpm (440 something, as I remember it), and scolded me about covering over index holes.  Huh?  There is only one index hole in a HD floppy.  If I covered it, I'm pretty sure that it would tell me that the drive was not ready?  This problem persisted over different floppy drives, different floppy cables and different FDC's.  Of course, it was also present with CDOS and Cromix, so over different OSes too.  No matter what I tried, it would not work.  I put the box back together, and the problem is still there.  I don't know why.  I've never had that problem before.  Naturally, I could go into the INIT code for CDOS and modify it to bypass the rpm check, but as long as the Gotek box works, I'll use it.

Do you know why INIT reports such crazy rpms??  Ever seen that problem before??

Roger

[Aron Hoekstra]

Do you think the thing that got Cromix to boot from your Gotek is the fact that now you have the 256KZ in there vs the SRAM board?

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[Walt Perko]

Hi,

 

Sounds like the sensor went bad or off center to detect the index hole. 

 

 

 

 

==============================================================================================
C U L8r,  °|°  Walt Perko  °|°        "Kids ... teach them the good stuff, and they still learn the bad stuff on their own."

http://www.R2Pv1.com/  RoboGuts™ Intelligent content for 3D printing making S.T.E.A.M. education better, easier and more affordable 

 

Experiments to learn how to use various Electronic Components, Structured Computer Programming, Phonemes for Speech &Song in any language, and Art.

                         "The World Needs a New Economic Model"
==============================================================================================

            Sent from the Cyber7

 

 

From: crom...@googlegroups.com On Behalf Of Roger Hanscom
Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2024 9:33 AM
To: crom...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Why can't I boot into Z80 Cromix?

 

Hi Mike,

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[Roger Hanscom]

>> Do you think the thing that got Cromix to boot from your Gotek is the fact that now you have the 256KZ in there vs the SRAM board?

Don't know.  It's possible.  Cromemco seems to like DRAM.  All the <whatever>KZ cards that I know of are DRAM.

>> Sounds like the sensor went bad or off center to detect the index hole. 

Perhaps, but the problem persists across multiple FDC's, floppy cables, and floppy drives.  I doubt that ALL my drives have an index sensor glitch.  I was thinking (at first) that there was an error somewhere in the clock logic (that keeps track of the date and time), but to my knowledge, none of that exists in CDOS.  I seem to remember (vaguely) a discussion about a similar problem on this thread quite a while ago, but since I never had a problem with rotational speeds, I didn't pay much attention.

Roger

[Mike Stein]

Boy, if it *really* happens with different drives and FDCs that's a mystery for sure. Maybe the 5 & 12V supplies at the drive? I've had problems with the main power connector overheating and burning the PS board and connector, but this doesn't sound like it.

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[Roger Hanscom]

>> Boy, if it *really* happens with different drives and FDCs that's a mystery for sure. Maybe the 5 & 12V supplies at the drive?

I was thinking that maybe the power wasn't quite up to snuff?  BUT, everything functions normally except INIT!

>> I've had problems with the main power connector overheating and burning the PS board and connector, but this doesn't sound like it.

Nothing like that here.  The CS-1 is (usually) very well behaved.  It's just hard to work on because everything is so compacted in the box.  I have to take it apart to get at the drives.

Roger

[Mike Stein]

ISTR that only 4 or 6 screws held the main cover and the two larger screws would release the front with the drives? But it is definitely packed, not to mention those noisy fans...

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[Roger Hanscom]

>> ISTR that only 4 or 6 screws held the main cover and the two larger screws would release the front with the drives?

8 screws for the cover (4 on each side), but then you have to go under the thing to unscrew the "sled" that holds the drives.  Takes the whole front off the box.  I did a <ahem> creative mod. for that lousy on-off-reset switch, and replaced it with a plain toggle switch.  BUT, when the front comes off the box, the new wiring becomes a problem (getting everything back in place without creating shorts).  Bottom line is I'd rather not take the front of the box off.  No thanks!

 >> But it is definitely packed, not to mention those noisy fans...

I took care of the noisy fans -- replaced all three with the lowest db ones I could find on Jameco.  It's not silent now, but not noisy enough to get on my nerves!

I just made a backup Cromix boot disk.  Same floppy rpm problem with INIT on that box.  I had to run INIT on the Gotek box, and then go back to the 4 floppy box to make the backup.  CPTREE takes forever on that thing!

Roger

[Mike Stein]

I hear ya; probably went through that at least 50 times back in the day, forgot how much fun it was.

Are all yours the 2 FH floppy bay only versions?

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[Mike Stein]

ISTR that there was a bulletin somewhere about INIT reporting the wrong speed and suggesting you use an older version; are you running 11.27?

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[Roger Hanscom]

>> Are all yours the 2 FH floppy bay only versions?

Yes, they fit 4 HH perfectly!

>> ISTR that there was a bulletin somewhere about INIT reporting the wrong speed and suggesting you use an older version; are you running 11.27?

Yes.  It's the only version I have.  Might be worth looking into a different version, but I get exactly the same with CDOS (I think it is v. 2.58?).

I wanted to ask you about Z80 Cromix software.  I just have the vanilla install, so nothing in it but the system.  What would you suggest for add-on s/w?  Any decent assemblers, compilers, editors, etc. for Z80 Cromix?  I don't even think there is a (direct) way to download s/w to it?  Might have to get it onto CDOS and use their CDOS-Cromix utilities to move it over to Cromix?

Roger

[Mike Stein]

After more than thirty years I'm afraid I don't really remember any Cromix-specific software; the systems I dealt with had multiple users using custom dBase software as well as WordStar, SuperCalc, etc., pretty well anything that you could run under CDOS.

Most of the Z80 languages should work fine.

I think I used Uniform and 22disk to convert files PC<>CDOS format; later on the CScopy program would let you read & write MS-DOS format disks on a Cromix box. If you have a serial port there were xmodem type programs available as well.

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[Richard Deane]

I did find that the useful utility Nulu wouldn't work under cdos or cpm emulation under cromix. Had to tweak the minimal nulu clone from FTL Modula2 to get adequate functionality to import my LBR software collection.

Richard 

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[Mike Stein]

AFAIR CDOS and the Cromix simulators were only compatible with CP/M 1.x, so some later programs, especially non-Cromemco versions, would require mods to run under CP/M 2.x and later; this could be tricky when nothing close to some CP/M calls were implemented.

Alas, my memory is not what it used to be, but I think I recall that CDOS and SIM.BIN were updated at least once to accommodate newer CP/M programs; something to look into one day...

m

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[Roger Hanscom]

Hi Mike,

After thinking about your comments about the CS-1 being set up for 2 full height floppies, I realized that putting four half height drives in there might be too much for the power supply?  I put the box back together already, so I can't easily check the voltages going to the floppies right now, but I'm thinking that I ought to do that.  Do you remember if the CS-1 had an adjustment for the power going to the floppies, particularly the +5V side?  I didn't see one, but I didn't look into the guts of the power supply (the part that is down out of sight).  What if the +5V is too anemic?  There isn't really any room in the chassis to set up an alternative power source.  I suppose that using 4 Goteks would probably reduce the power requirements vs. regular floppies, but doing that has its own set of disadvantages.

Roger

[Mike Stein]

I'd be surprised but I suppose it is possible; I can't find any specs on the power supply but the HD version is definitely beefier (no surprise). The size of the fuses might give you a rough idea.

The specs on the drives are not as different as I would have thought

The TM100s draw .9A and .6A average on the 12 and 5V lines respectively, but no info on the max startup current.

A Panasonic JU475 for example uses .3A and .6A average respectively but with maximums of 1.2A and .8A

And yes, there is a set of push buttons on the power supply to select the line voltage.

I suppose you could try temporarily running them from a separate power supply with at least 5A output each; that's what I use here, a separate PC supply to power the floppies and hard drives.

BTW, looks like my Gotek is gone ;-) I assume the LED and/or the 3 digit display should light when you power it up from either the USB port or the floppy connector? Nothing lights and the programmer doesn't find it.

Good luck, and have FUN!

m

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[Aron Hoekstra]

Well I got my new 1793 controller chip, but no change. Works exactly the same for me, just hangs after selecting the root device. I guess we'll see if your physical copy makes a difference!

[rlm2667]

Hmm, the schematic for the CS1 shows an las1905 5 Volt regulator with the drive connector labeled 5V 1.2A and an las1912 regulator with connector labeled 12V 1.8A. I'm reading this from the pdf but pretty sure this is correct.  I assume they were not expecting 2 drives to be starting at the same time, which they would not, but that's cutting it pretty close. The regulators themselves are rated at 5amps with appropriate heat sink in TO3 form. So maybe the short duration startup load isn't an issue and the listed connector ratings are continuous. 

Can't see the heat sinks in the picture and don't have a CS1 Case. Only a CS1H which uses a different regulator circuit. Though, the floppy connector on the CS1H is rated the same as the CS1 and It only came with 1 floppy originally.

R

[Mike Stein]

Interesting; looks like the 12V would probably be adequate but the 5V might be a little low; I'm still surprised that an HD drive doesn't draw a lot less current than a TM-100.

Can you start the drives separately? How? Connect Motor on to Drive Select? Roger, do your drive motors run independently?

Yeah, the CS-1H supply is quite different and beefier than the CS-1

m

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[Roger Hanscom]

Hi Mike,

>> Interesting; looks like the 12V would probably be adequate but the 5V might be a little low

Yes, I think the 12v is OK.  It's the 5v that worries me.  I may be thinking about it all wrong, but I would think that the 12v supply would only be in play when a drive motor is running?  The 5v side is probably always in play, but maybe more so when the drive is active?

>> I'm still surprised that an HD drive doesn't draw a lot less current than a TM-100.

I'm looking for the power requirements for my drives (Mitsumi (Newtronics) D509V3), but can't find any info.

>> Can you start the drives separately? How? Connect Motor on to Drive Select? Roger, do your drive motors run independently?

The motors only run when the drive is selected, and they time out after a few seconds.

I have a +5v/+12v power supply that I could use to run the drives apart from the CS-1 chassis, but how to do it?  Would the ground of the P.S. have to be connected to the CS-1 ground?  The P.S. is 14A at 5v and 1.5A at 12v.  Maybe just hook up the 5v side, but again how to do it wrt to grounds.  I'd rather not blow up the Cs-1 chassis or the floppy drives???

Roger