Hello and Cromemco C10 floppy issue

[Santo Nucifora]

Hi All,

I am new to the list.  Thanks for allowing me to join.

I am a bit of an S100 enthusiast so I've collected a few Cromemco pieces in the past and now have the time to go through some of them among other projects.  I have a Z2D (haven't started work on that yet), a C10, a PFD drive and some Cromemco 100 cards including a Dazzler set.

At present, I am working on the C10.  My main issue is that I do not have a CFD drive (though I would love to have one) so I've wired up a cable to see if I can get a regular 5.25" drive to work.  I thought I had a good disk image but I am not so sure now.

I created a cable with a IEEE-488 connector on one side and an IDC female card edge 34 pin connector on the other to connect to a 5.25" drive (shown below).  I haven't seen this anywhere so I think it might be right?  I am just not sure if there is any logic in a CFD drive so this may be one possible issue.

I created my C10 Bootable disk from a thread on the VCF forums here: https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/boot-images-for-cromemco-c-10.1251758/ using an Applesauce FDC which is known to work with the specialized format.

Well, that didn't work.  

I then tried an HxC 2001 as I found a couple of articles on it in the Github archives and I can see the 40 track disk HFE file created from this IMD file) go from track 0 to track 10, then back to track 0 then 10... until the boot fails.

If type in "AS" at the CROS prompt, I get  "Error = H 00".  This also happens with a really floppy disk and the 5.25" drive

So, either my hand made floppy cable is incorrect, my floppy disk image is incorrect or my C10 has internal issues (but I did replace one 8T98 that was bad and swapped the WD 1797 chip for another one.  Still same issues.

Does anyone with a CFD have pictures of the interior to make sure there is no logic inside?  I could not find any pictures of the internals on Github.  Does anyone with a C10 and an HxC, Gotek have a disk image file or perhaps and archived known working floppy disk image I could use to create a floppy disk?

P.S. I do have a VCF thread going at https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/cromemco-c10-without-cfd-floppy-drive-cant-figure-it-out.1258550/ for further details and a couple extra pictures.

Any help is much appreciated.

Santo Nucifora

https://vintagecomputer.ca

[David Roberts]

Welcome,

I thought I had read this before (VCFED daver2).

Dave

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[Santo Nucifora]

Hi Dave, 

Yup, that's me.  Still working on it.   I was hoping since there was some talk of C10s here in the past, someone might have a picture of the inside of the drive or know for sure.  If there is no logic in the drive then I can safely dig more into a possible motherboard fault.  Unfortunately, because of the way the motherboard is in the C10 case, it is not easy to run a logic analyzer and see what's going on. 

Hopefully someone can help.

Santo

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[Mike Arnold]

Hi Santo

I do not have a C10 but we did sell a few "back in the day". In response to your question, I am pretty sure that there is no logic inside the floppy case. Just bog standard wiring.

I do suggest that you check that the Tandon is configured to Cromemco standards (I think that the 16FDC/64FDC manuals show the jumpers).

I do recall that the boot disk for a C10 will not work on their S100 systems and vice versa. I think that I have a set of physical C10 disks in my boxes. I could post them to you if you want to try them. I believe that you are in Toronto - a shame that this was not happening in July as I was out in Hamilton visiting family and could have handed them to you. Also a shame that I never got to meet Mike Stein face to face but that's another story.

Let me know if I can help.

Mike

[Roger Hanscom]

Welcome Santo --

I know nothing about the C10, but I have a couple of Cromemco System One's that I can boot from a GoTek (CDOS, CP/M 2.2, and Z80 Cromix).  I can help with that.  I've given up on most floppies (8" and 5.25" 360k), but I can boot from 5.25" HD (they look like 8" drives to Cromemco), so I can help with that.  I just don't know how different a C10 is when compared with regular Cromemco gear.

Roger

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[Santo Nucifora]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply.  I think I'll have to pull a Tandon TM100 out of a computer and make sure the setting match the 16FDC manual.  I took a quick look and the jumpers are there.  I think my Z2D had Shugart drives, which I tried, but that didn't work.  Same issues.  It certainly can't hurt to try original Tandons.

If you happen to have a set of physical C10 disks, please reach out to me.  I'd be happy to cover any costs.  While I am fairly certain I have a good disk if the image is good), it would be great to know I have good disks for sure.  I will also archive them and check if they are similar to the images I have.  You can reach me at santo.n...@gmail.com

I am in the greater Toronto area.  In fact, I had Mike Stein over one night.  I had a bare C10 and he brought me the C10 keyboard and manuals.  He didn't have a floppy drive and couldn't find the floppies but be was a great person. He worked on my favourite TV show, Bits and Bytes and that fascinated me.  That show piqued my interest in computers that later provided me with a career so I appreciated that.  In fact, looking up info on this list brought me to knowing he had passed away.  He will be missed.

Thank you again for the reply.

Santo

   

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[Santo Nucifora]

Hi Roger.

Thanks for the reply.  I'll admit, I did try a Gotek for a while but when I got access to the archive, I found a video showing someone with a C10 and an HxC2001 so I then went to the HxC2001.  The person in the video also had a ribbon cable to the drive emulator so I was hoping that person is still active here.  I should go hunt that down again.    The HxC2001 is my "go to" for odd diskette emulation and I was really hoping that might make a small difference but it ended up being the same in the end.   I am leaning toward the C10 motherboard having an issue but I am trying to eliminate any external issues like the floppy drive, the hand made cable I create or the disk image I used. I am definitely missing something but I appreciate the offer. 

Santo

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[Chris LaFond]

Santo,

I have a C-10 that is fully working with two Tandon drives and physical disks. Work keeps me busy this time of year so I haven't had a chance to reply. I have glanced at the email thread and it looks like you are trying to wire a floppy drive up? I can take pictures and give you a wiring schematic for the drive cable. In the extreme I could send you my drives and cable so you can replicate the setup. I can also make you copies of the bootable C-10 disks I have.

I will try to put together some pictures later today and send you some more information.

Chris

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[Santo Nucifora]

Hi Chris,

Thank you.  That would be great.  Just confirming the drive cable wiring is the same as I mapped it out should be sufficient.  Arnold from the list has offered to send me an original floppy so that should be enough to confirm it's not the drive.  I do still have to try a Tandon drive but had a busy weekend.  I'll have to locate one and take it out of probably an IBM PC and see if I can get that to work.

I appreciate your time on this.

Santo

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[KDK Construction]

Santo,

I haven't forgot about you! I setup my c10 this evening and created a boot disk to make sure everything is still working. My next step is to take apart the floppy drive cases and pin out the cable. Hopefully tomorrow.

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[Chris LaFond]

Santo,

I noticed I sent the last few messages directly to you. I will try to keep them to the whole thread so everyone has the info.

Attached are some more pictures. Hopefully it works

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[Santo Nucifora]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for catching that and keeping the thread going.   I especially thank you for the pictures.  The issue I am having with your pin numbering is the floppy connector  in your driveconnector.jpg image.  IDC and card edge connectors don't have numbering like that.   Here is an illustration of one side of the floppy drive connector with pin numbering and signals.

This is the top side (looking down on the drive).  The bottom side is numbered in the same way with all odd numbers so 1, 3 then the notch then 5, 7, 9 ... to 33.  The bottom side is all ground connections.  So when you showed an odd numbered pin matching a signal pin on the IEEE488 cable end that was not ground, that was where I got confused because those are all ground pins and the grounds are usually all tied together.

You mapping and picture is enough to work with.  I will use your pinout and how you numbered the pins to check against mine.  No need to do anything more.  And I do love your floppy connector end.  I should look for one of those connectors.  I used a card edged IDC floppy cable and added an IEEE488 connector to it and that made it REALLY hard to work with.  I originally bought a loose IEEE-488 GPIB cable and was going to cut an end off but I felt bad cutting the cable :)

Thank you again.  I'll let you know how I make out.  Great pictures, by the way.  I appreciate them very much.

Santo

 

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