Existence?

[jac...@gmail.com]

This post is a response to Laurie's comment of:
"so.... even if we exist only in your head, would this change anything
within that existence? and if all this is a mental illusion, and you
could wake from it, what do you think you would 'wake up' to?"

Well, if you all only exist within my head than anything changes that
I change. Whichever changes are made by my consciousness, since it's
the only one, whether I'm aware of my desire for these changes or not,
would be evident in this world. I may even make changes and convince
myself of them so thoroughly that the changes would be made without
any reflection of the world ever having existed in a prior state.
What would I wake up to? I really have no idea. I could wake up to
the Desert of the Real, to a False Awakening, to a new illusion, to
the smell of fresh cooked bacon in the kitchen downstairs. There's
really no telling. More so, when I awoke, if I was unaware of the
prior dream state I may not even be certain that I was awake. And the
desire to awake would be based upon whether or not the real or the
dream was more beneficial. If the dream is mine, then by persisting
in it, I may shape it into what I wish. However, this is only
possible if I'm aware of the dream and my desires. And all of this is
still reliant upon my being able to tell the difference between the
dream and the real.

For examples, check out:
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/rl_middles2_davetframe.html
Abre Los Ojos (Open Your Eyes) A spanish film
The Nines
The Matrix
Waking Life
and some others I can't remember right now

[Marcellus]

First of all, greetings Cripe Quandrers! I know a few of you, others
I do not. For those who do not know me, I am an agnostic and love
philosophy. Hopefully this group will share in many fun-filled
discussions!

Second, here are a few savory bits on reality and appearance from
Nietzsche, to perhaps bolster conversation. All quotes are from "The
Gay Science."

(From Aphorism 54, The consciousness of appearance) "I suddenly woke
up in the midst of this dream, but only to the consciousness that I am
dreaming and that I must go on dreaming lest he fall. What is
'appearance' for me now? Certainly not the opposite of some essence:
what could I say about any essence except to name the attributes of
its appearance! Certainly not a dead mask that one could place on an
unknown x or remove from it!"

(From 57, To the realist) "... you call yourselves realists and insist
that the world really is the way it appears to you. As if reality
stood unveiled to you only...
That mountain there! That cloud there! What is 'real' in that?
Subtract the phantasm and every human contribution from it, my sober
friends! If you can! If you can forget your descent, your past, your
training---all of your humanity and animality. There is no "reality"
for us---not for you either, my sober friends. We are not nearly as
different as you think, and perhaps our good will to transcend
intoxication is as respectable as your faith that you are altogether
incapable of intoxication."

(From 58, Only as creators!) "How foolish it would be to suppose that
one only needs to point out this origin and thisa misty shroud of
delusion in order to destroy the world that counts for real, so-called
'reality.' We can destroy only as creators. ---But let us not forget
this either: it is enough to create new names and estimations and
probabilities in order to create in the long run new 'things.'"

-Marcellus

[jac...@gmail.com]

Well, in case you haven't figured it out yet, I'm Josh. I started
this project off originally as a cooperative Philosophy Journal where
I could ask questions and pose ideas that had been pestering me to
others and for them to do the same. It's been rather succesfull so
far, so I went ahead and made this group as a means of better
organizing the active group and discussions. I'm going to remain
optimistic about group participation for now, and I don't mean to
sound condescending, but if I end up in the "wrong" group then
discussing philosophy will be like pulling teeth for me. So I'm
hoping this group can maintain my philosophical communication with
someone who is at least slightly interested.

Anyways, I've had a lot of questions growing up and have been getting
into a lot of new things recently because of it. I haven't read too
much formal philosophy writings, but I've studied a number of concepts
and discussed them numerous times. The thing that first interested me
was existence. While I was in High School, I learned of Descartes'
infamous "I think, therefore I am". And that has stuck with me ever
since then. My premise was the idea of the falsifiability of the
external world and the only truth being the existence of my own mind.
Since then, I've studied more and elaborated more, but I also
presently refuse to accept any set belief structure. I'm trying to
remain open minded to new ideas and new experiences as the opportunity
arises. Hopefully, someday, I'll even be able to participate in a
Voudoo ritual or something.

I've been influenced a lot by Descartes, Taoism, Buddhism, Douglas
Adams, Philip K. Dick and Robert Anton Wilson. Other influences,
albeit not as prominent or not as philosophically oriented, include
Bill Hicks, Thomas Jefferson, Che Guevara and Malcolm X. I was raised
Christian Fundamentalist, and since leaving the church I have
participated in Norse Paganism and Zen Buddhism. I'm hoping to expand
this much, much more.

In response to M, I like 54 and 57 but I'm a little confused on his
bit about intoxicants. Any explanation?
Josh

[Marcellus]

Concerning 57...

I should have typed more than just a short excerpt. IT begins "You
sober people who feel well armed against passion and fantasies and
would like to turn your emptiness into a matter of pride and an
ornament: you call yourselves realists and hint that the world really

is the way it appears to you."

What I got from it is that the realists believe that they are "sober"
in seeing everything clearly, just as it physically appears. They are
not confused nor misunderstand anything. On the other hand, there are
those who look beyond the material world and try so hard to not be
deceived by their eyes, or intoxicated. Perhaps this is an over-
simplification.

[Josh]

Huh... It seems more and more things end up pointing towards my own
ideas these days... Have I become a copy of my environment or am I
narrowing my search so small I only see that which I agree with? I'll
maintain hope that I'm simply being more open minded and am actively
pursuing multiple paths simultaneously as I was hoping to do.
Josh