[Little Fighter 4 Turbo Full Down
Laurice Whack
With so many F-5's still in service. Wouldn't a engine upgrade or replacements be in order? The Tiger II is a fine little fighter but, it needs more power and range. Many are still around and have been recently upgraded with new radars and avionics. With two engines and hundreds still in service. There must be a large market? Russia would be a good candidate. Along with France, Germany, U.K., etc. etc.)
Unless there's a comparable sized engine with the thrust rating of the J85, then i don't think it's likely to be a twin engine replacement. Single engine repalcement have lot's more candidate engines, but that would require a serious modification to the aft fuselage and the intake. I think many would rather buy the up and coming advanced trainers/LIFTs for doing the same tasks.
yeh but the single engine turbofan would have been much better than the j85. of course th eus didn't want it to succede they had thier f-16 with j-?? (turbojet) - they tried flogging it but no one was that gulable. the people who wanted an f-5 replacment are starting now and you have -the at-50 (south korea -most promising), the iranin project (very little known), gripen (possible in this class), etc
the us have got out of what looked IMHO to be a porfitable game but the countries that brought f-5s have either moved on to bigger aircraft and brought trainer or have just got combat caperable trainers.
I still think it would be a good idea. With so many F-5's (A,B,E,and F's) and T-38's still in service. The market has to be big? That said, a replacement would have to be a direct replacement. (not a single engine) A new engine could offer more thrust and be more fuel efficient. Also, aren't they many other aircraft the use the J-85? Doesn't that Taiwanese jet trainer use J-85's (two)? Help me out. What aircraft use J-85's other than the F-5 and T-38?????
"Upgrading" to a turbofan just wont work on the F-5 just as it didnt work on the F-4.The j-85 is incredably efficient,infact the F-5 has one of the best power to performance ratios of any fighter ever made.Going to a turbofan would actually reduce range.When you compare the performance specs from the F-20 to the F-5,the improvement is surprizingly small compared to the gigantic difference in power.
follandGnat- Your saying that there is no way to improve on a jet engine that is going on 40 years old? Jet technolgy has come a very long ways in that time. Don't get me wrong. I personally know very little (some)about jet engines. Thought, that sounds like a pretty bold statement to me! Thats like saying that there is no room for improvement in the engine from a Mini Cooper.......That said, I yield to your expertise?
It would have to be of comparable size with little or no modification to the aircrafts structure. As for the cost many countries can't afford the cost of a new aircraft. Take for example: Philippines, Mexico, Tunisia, Morocco, to name a few! All countries that fly the F-5's now. There are some countries that maybe able to afford a small numbers of current generation fighters but, would augment those fleets with F-5's anyways. Brazil is one. They are looking to get 10-12 new block 50 F-16's in the near future. Unfortunately, thats all they can afford. In that case ungraded F-5's maybe a perfect choice to supplement there F-16's. Otherwords a poor mans hi-low mix! What do you think?
The F-5 is one of the aircraft that I see right now as being a big product when it comes to upgrades. You can get quite a lot out of this little fighter if you upgrade it correctly. New engines would be a good idea. The engines on the Ching-Kuo would be a perfect choice. Each produces nearly 10,000 pounds of thrust. That would give the F-5 twice the thrust overall. Likewise I've always believe the T-37/A-37 series should have had an engine upgrade.
Oh yeah, forgot to add this. The reason the F-4/Spey combination (which I know you are referring too) never worked is because the Spey was larger than the J-79 by a good deal. At least in width. It required greater airflow and thus the intakes had to be redesigned on the F-4K's and F-4M's. This resulted in a low of top speed at high altitude (although ironically the Spey Phantom was slightly faster down low than the J-79 Phantom) A turbofan engine will/has worked in the F-4. The Israli's proved that when they worked with Boeing on the Super Phantom. This was to have two PW1120 engines in it. They were more powerful and more fuel efficient than the J-79's. The aircraft demonstrated greatly improved performance. The only reason they never went through with the upgrade was that funding fell through. This same reason (at the same time period) was what killed the Lavi program. Too great, "what could have beens" aircraft killed by lacking of funding...such a shame.
like i said, if you can find an existing higher thrust engine with similar dimensions...but, no, you're not going to get a new engine design, it costs quite a lot these days just to come up with a new engine. The problem is that most engines are either much smaller than the J-85 or much larger. Even the F-125s are much much larger than the J-85s. It really is a remarkable tiny turbojet. It actually would cost less for a single engine replacement than a twin because modifying fuselages are relatively cheaper. Even a higher rating twin engine replacement most likely would have to redesign the inlets anyways for the higher air flow(unless that stays the same).
Vortex- I believe I have established that there is a market for a J-85 replacement. That said, it would have to be of similar size and dimension. The thrust would be higher but, would need to be alot higher. Even 1,000 to 2,000 lbs would be of great improvement to the F-5 with little or no change to the intakes. If, indeed there is a large market for a J-85 replacement. Why would it not worth developing a new engine to replace it? Someone is missing out on alot of sales! (and support, parts, etc. etc.)
scooter-Ofcourse theres a market for engines more powerfull than the j-85,but theres no way in hell your going to make a turbofan with the same diameter as the j-85 thats more powerfull than the j-85.The j-85 is pretty much top of the line for turbojet technology,it moves huge volume of air very effecienly.Making large fans like on turbofans dont nessesarily make engines more powerfull,but spread out the useful load in the same kind of way 1st gear or overdrive spread out the usefull power in your car.
I'll just have to disagree and do alittle more research. Maybe a upgrade of the J-85 itself would be a better solutions? Thought, to says that we can't improve on a 40 year old design. Is just to hard to take at face value!
I'm not sure about the F-5D designation, but F-5C was the designation given to the modified F-5A's that were sent to SE Asia during the mid-60's for the Skoshi Tiger program which was a combat eval for the F-5 in Vietnam.
I don't believe it will be practical to upgrade the powerplant of the F-5 series, if it was I'm certain one of the companies offering the F-5 upgrades would have jumped on it. I would imagine it is difficult to find a suitable replacement for the tiny J-85. The dimensions I have for the J-85-GE-21 are as follows: Dry weight 684 pounds, length 112.5 inches including afterburner, width 21 inches. For comparison the ITEC TFE1042-70 of the Ching Kuo weighs 1,360 pounds, is 140.2 inches long and 30.8 inches in width. Specific fuel consumption is similar between the two, with the newer engine having a slight advantage.
mctodd- What do you define as practical? A replacement is needed the technolgy is available and the demand is high! Whats not practical? I see new jet engines (turbofan, turbojets etc.) develope for aircraft and helicopters all the time that are not produces in large numbers. Yet, one that could be produced in large numbers is not practical or should I say economical?
Oh, I didn't realize the F125 in the Ching-Kuo was that much larger. Guess that won't work then. Sounded good at least. :) Well, what about GE taking the J-85 and updating it to more modern standards. Surely modern technology can help produce an almost identical engine with more power and better fuel efficiency. Now that I think about it, the J-85 is really a wonder of technology. Also, why did the USAF never put the J-85 in their very large fleet of T-37 Tweet jet trainers. The A-37 Dragonfly was fitted with them. Are they too powerful for the airframe of the T-37?
IMO 90% of the fight should take place in the corner. Trap your opponents and give them very few options. Naturally this is a turtles paradise but this is where you want your opponents to be because a stationary target is easier to hit than a target that is moving around all over the place. By putting this kind of "boxed in" pressure it helps to break your opponents down, causing them to make risky decisions. You'll be in their personal space and they will do anything to keep you away.
Rapid-fire hooks. Unlike a good amount of standing jabs in the game, this is not very reliable as a counter to E.Honda's Headbutt, since the horizontal priority is not very good, for that you have to use Far Standing Short instead. This is mainly useful in combos and block string into Rekkas, as it can be hit-confirmed, has better horizontal reach than Close Standing Fierce and can still hit a good amount of crouching characters (Ryu, Ken, E.Honda, Zangief, Dhalsim, T.Hawk, Boxer and Claw). This is specially useful as a link after a Rekku Kyaku (i.e. Chicken Wing) into Rekkas, since it has slightly more range than Close Standing Fierce and a slightly faster startup, making the link easier to do.
A crouching elbow strike. This can be chain canceled from Standing Jabs and then cancelled into Rekkas for hit-confirm combos, so this move is useful in combos. This is also N.Fei's only crouching normal that is special cancelable. On neutral this is not realy useful as it has very poor horizontal reach and priority.
A backfist. Good start-up and recovery. This is useful in combos, since it links into several other attacks (and into itself, from point-blank range) and let's you cancel into specials. It is also good for ticks and baits, such as throw-wait-Flame-Kick mix-ups. Note that this does more stun than close Fierce, which makes it easier to obtain dizzy combos with this move. Also, this whiffs against a crouching Blanka and Cammy, so this is less useful on these match-ups.
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