Intelligent? Design

[Blue Sun]

I'm sorry, but whoever decided to route the male urethra right through
the center of the prostate gland has foresaken any possible claim to
"Intelligent" design. Just ask any man over 50 <grin>.


<i>If you want to build a ship, don't herd people together to collect
wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to
long for the endless immensity of the sea.</i>

-- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Caleb Freeman]

   If things were not designed intelligently, then they happened by random chance.  Here's an example of how rediculous this is.  dump out a bag of scrabble letters and I wonder how many times you would have to do that before the letters spelled Romeo and Juliet.  It would never happen.  Even people who are not Christians can see that there is order in the universe.  Scientifically, things go from order to chaos.  If the Big Bang really happened no one was there to see it but how many explotions have you seen that produced any sort of order?  There are plenty of other scientific reasons for creation but this is a good start.  I have a lot more.

[jamesn]

Well not really. Evolution is not random chance. Evolution is a series
of small accumulated changes
determined by whatever selection pressures are in play.

[Psycho Dave]

Your logic s faulty. "Random Chance" is not the only possible
alternative to "god did it". Your argument is essentially a phoney
bifurcation.

Science doesn't purport anything to be random or chance at all. There
is a scientific law known as the law of cause and effect. For every
action there is a reaction, for every event, a cause. Creationists are
actually the ones who invented the concept that things happen
randomly, becasue they essentially do not even understand basic
science.

Everything in science happens according to physics, chemistry, and
thermodynamics, none of which are random. Specific chemicals do
specific things when mixed in specific ways, under specific
conditions. You may think that pouring a bunch of chemicals together
at random will yeild random results, but science says otherwise.
According to science, the chemicals will react in very predictable,
very specific ways.

You cannot get a protien without a specific mixture of chemicals under
specific conditions.

Biology is not random, either. When mutations occur, it doesn't just
come from nowhere. Mutations are caused by specific things. They do
not just randomly appear.

Evolution is not driven by randomness or by chance -- that is a
creationist invention.

[Caleb Freeman]

   Well a cell for example has many parts that combine to make a little machine.  Darwin couldn't have possibly known this but a cell could not have evolved into a living thing.  A geraff would have the blood rush to the head when it bends down to drink except for the way it was designed to prevent this.  Unfortunately I don't remember the details.  If it were evolution the giraff would not have survived.  I doubt that that thing jujst happened to evolve and be crutial to it's survival.  There are many other examples of animals that couldn't have evolved into what they are tody as well.

[Joanne Bob]

Thats is not what i was getting to but you do make a point. there are alot more points to getting them together and seeing how they come together. even the smallest molicule helps connect things together. we eat things that help keeps us alive and vise-versa.expand your mind to new ideas of others also.

[Drafterman]

On Feb 26, 12:40 pm, Caleb Freeman <chesspeace...@gmail.com> wrote:
>    If things were not designed intelligently, then they happened by random
> chance.

False dilemma. There are many other possible solutions. You've ignored
the one that was presented here: stupid design.

> Here's an example of how rediculous this is.  dump out a bag of
> scrabble letters and I wonder how many times you would have to do that
> before the letters spelled Romeo and Juliet.  It would never happen.

Actually there is a non-zero chance that it could happen, even on the
first try. Granted it's extremely low but it still exists. Regardless
this example is completely irrelevant. There aren't any laws that
would filter for or select the sequence of letters "Romeo and Juliet"
over any other combination, which is why we would not expect them to
happen. However, the laws of the universe DO filter for and select
configurations of atoms and molecules resulting in life.

If you doubt that pure randomness plus a few simple rules can result
in complexity and order then I ask that you research the Sierpinski
Triangle

> Even
> people who are not Christians can see that there is order in the universe.

Order does not suggest design.

> Scientifically, things go from order to chaos.

Incorrect. Things go from chaotic to ordered all the time.

> If the Big Bang really
> happened no one was there to see it but how many explotions have you seen
> that produced any sort of order?

The Big Bang was not an explosion.

> There are plenty of other scientific
> reasons for creation but this is a good start.  I have a lot more.

There are approximately 0 reasons for creation. Have you ever wondered
why NO current scientific theory includes a creator?

[Drafterman]

All of this can be summed up as: "I don't understand how things could
have evolved, ergo things didn't evolve."

Reality is not bound by what is comprehendable or believable by you.
It is far more likely that you simply do not understand what you are
talking about.

I suggest you get your information about evolution from actual
legitimate scientific resources, not Christian apologetic sources.

[Joanne Bob]

There are alot of things that no one can explain. Here in b.c. there are places that you go and never come back

[manny]

Well Mr know it all, can you tell me how life started and what makes
life, and that also mean how everything come to be form your
legitimate scientific resources? and not from your in-mate ...

[Jake]

You can not jump from "Science has not yet explained this" to
"Therefor God made it". Any theory must be proved, including Creation,
before it can be declared true. You can never prove a theory by
noticing that another is incomplete.

It's like saying "I think your car is making a strange noise because
there are rabbits in the gas tank, you can't explain the noise,
therefore there must be rabbits"

[manny]

On Apr 22, 4:12 am, Jake <jakecro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You can not jump from "Science has not yet explained this" to
> "Therefor God made it". Any theory must be proved, including Creation,
> before it can be declared true. You can never prove a theory by
> noticing that another is incomplete.
>
> It's like saying "I think your car is making a strange noise because
> there are rabbits in the gas tank, you can't explain the noise,
> therefore there must be rabbits"

well, I didn't say science didn't explain anything, cause God all
ready did explain everything, if you care to find-out for yourself.
God did told us, why he created the worlds and why he created us, if
you care to find-out, but I guess you don't, cause your mind is up
long before even you try too, that's your problem and you can't see
it, cause you're blind to it. So enjoy been blind, it won't last
remember..

[manny]

Yes, yes GOD made it. I know and you don't, cause you're in ignorance
of your own self, that mean you don't know you, that mean you're like
in animal, no difference so enjoy what you are, life is too short..

On Apr 22, 4:12 am, Jake <jakecro...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You can not jump from "Science has not yet explained this" to
> "Therefor God made it". Any theory must be proved, including Creation,
> before it can be declared true. You can never prove a theory by
> noticing that another is incomplete.
>
> It's like saying "I think your car is making a strange noise because
> there are rabbits in the gas tank, you can't explain the noise,
> therefore there must be rabbits"
>
> On Mar 23, 11:16 am, manny <daf...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 13 Mar, 14:19, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 3, 12:37 pm, Caleb Freeman <chesspeace...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >    Well a cell for example has many parts that combine to make a little
> > > > machine.  Darwin couldn't have possibly known this but a cell could not have

> > > > evolved into a living thing.  A giraffe would have the blood rush to the head

> > > > when it bends down to drink except for the way it was designed to prevent
> > > > this.  Unfortunately I don't remember the details.  If it were evolution the

> > > > giraffe would not have survived.  I doubt that that thing just happened to
> > > > evolve and be crucial to it's survival.  There are many other examples of
> > > > animals that couldn't have evolved into what they are today as well.

>
> > > All of this can be summed up as: "I don't understand how things could
> > > have evolved, ergo things didn't evolve."
>
> > > Reality is not bound by what is comprehendable or believable by you.
> > > It is far more likely that you simply do not understand what you are
> > > talking about.
>
> > > I suggest you get your information about evolution from actual
> > > legitimate scientific resources, not Christian apologetic sources.
>
> > Well Mr know it all, can you tell me how life started and what makes
> > life, and that also mean how everything come to be form your

> > legitimate scientific resources? and not from your in-mate ...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[rick]

Consider please that science studies natural laws and we have some
knowledge about these laws, but where do these laws come from? What
chances are the chances that these laws occurred randomly?

[Drafterman]

On Apr 27, 1:31 am, rick <ulrichschulthe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Consider please that science studies natural laws and we have some
> knowledge about these laws, but where do these laws come from?

I don't know. Sometimes "I don't know" is the best answer. Especially
in cases when you don't, actually, know. In such cases it is not
appropriate to invent answers such as "God did it". It is even more
innappropriate to then presume to present said made-up answer as fact.

> What
> chances are the chances that these laws occurred randomly?

That question is only valid if and when it is established that such
laws did, in fact, occur randomly (rather than simply being the only
laws possible).

> > > reasons for creation but this is a good start.  I have a lot more.- Hide quoted text -

[Jake]

Excuse me?
You do not know me, or what I care to find out. I have found out, I
was brought up as a christian and believed in God until I was 16. I
have a Bible and read it because it fascinates me that something so
flawed can convince so many people it is the truth.

PS, There is no dash (-) between find and out.

[Trevis]

It seems to me that many of you are throwing out anecdotes and thought
provoking questions that you may have been told at church, but that do
not substantially back the claim for intelligent design. To begin
with, keep in mind, as has been said in a few previous posts, that not
knowing and not having evidence are not enough to prove a theory.
Therefore, the statement "There are many other examples of animals
that couldn't have evolved into what they are today as well" in no way
proves that God created them, since there is no evidence for God
either.

With this in mind, I will also give critiques on a few of the theories
that have been proposed or attacked. To begin with, evolution is in a
sense a result of random occurrences. These occurrences in
evoloutionary biology are termed "mutations". These mutations happen
on the level of DNA and result in a change to the gene structure of an
organism. While these mutations may happen frequently, resulting in
small changes in the organism, they are filtered out by Natural
Selection. Therefore, you should not think that arctic penguins
developed blubber and insulated feathers which keep them warm because
they lived in a cold climate. Rather, when they first began living in
that climate, some penguins developed these "insulating" systems while
others did not, some may have even been born without feathers due to
the random mutations. However, over generations, the penguins that
had developed "insulating" systems were more prone to living in those
climates which resulted in longer lifespans and a greater chance of
procreation. Thus, they passed their "insulating" genes down to their
offspring and so on and so on. Thus, Natural Selection is a naturally
occurring act which filters out the random mutations and helps mold
species to their environments, the environments themselves are not the
reason for the changes.

Very similar logic is used to describe the creation of our universe.
Start with a uniform mass. Then apply the laws of quantum mechanics
which state that on the smallest level, every molecule behaves
probabilisticly. Thus, there is a certain probability that an atom
may all of the sudden dissappear and re-appear on the other side of
the universe, although the likelihood of this is very slim. So, back
to the uniform mass. Quantum mechanics tells us that there will be
small perturbations in this mass, meaning that at some places will be
slightly more dense than others. Thus, when the big bang occured and
the mass began to move outward, these perturbations grew dew to the
effects of gravity. The denser areas became more and more dense.
This resulted in the formation of planets and stars. These dense
astronomical bodies attracted more mass, resulting in galaxies. These
galaxies attracted more galaxies, resulting in super galaxies,
quasars, etc...

While it may be hard to believe, or understand in such condensed form,
I suggest that you all put more effort into studying the leading
theories of both astronomy and evolotionary biology, each of which is
now based on quantum mechanics. Not only does it explain the creation
of our intricate and elligant universe without the use of intelligent
design, it also shows us how life can evolve from a single-celled
organism to human beings, once again without intelligent design. The
mutations that I spoke about earlier are now being seen to be caused
by the effects of quantum mechanics occurring within cells, thus the
random mutations.

Finally, there are some questions still left unanswered, such as where
the laws of gravity, thermodynamics, etc.. came from. These are the
laws by which our universe was created and exists, but where did they
come from? Some believe that gravity results from the transmission of
particles, gravitons, between objects, while others, namely Einstein,
believe that it results due to the bending effect that matter has on
Space/Time. However, you must understand that these questions are at
the forefront of science, and only with science can they be
understood. Not by a religious text that was created before we even
knew that the Earth was not flat.

Trevis

> > > > legitimate scientific resources? and not from your in-mate ...- Hide quoted text -

[rick]

Trevis I find your comments very interesting and agree with most what
you are saying. The only thing I can add is the thought that we tend
to make the mistake and take religious dogma and especially the Old
Testament as the source trying to understand the God concept, by
relaying on that information no wonder intelligent well educated
people like you can't accept their teachings as truth. Learned from
the German Philosopher Kuhn that we need to go beyond religion take
science as a base not religion and think through this subject yourself
forming your own understanding of a creator or say the possibility of
a creator, this intelligent mind. This inner work eventually lead you
beyond reason, when you come into later years when you get old and can
look back on your own experiences, seen the world passing by,
experiencing good and evil working out in your own mind the answer to
the question WHY. What I mean is don't shut the gate leave it open.
Love to read your thoughts and those from your friends in this group,
it is very stimulating for an older person.

[Joanne Bob]

It still doesnt help when you also dont know it all. I am still learning and

questioning everything including the church especially the church because

the evil they did to aboriginal natives.It is not forgiving to me.And i do understand

the ideas out there,bring together and be happy!

--
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