Words from Walt
K3
anne norman
Walt’s Words
in the Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection
10-2-12 to 3-17-13
posts 1 - 1093
A compilation of comments by Walt Leonard, APA , on the Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection thread on byc.
24. 10-3-12
I would seek suggestions from the Maran breeders there. I think it is also important the CL breeders develop thick skin because show quality birds are hard to come by in any breed, and there will need to be sufficient numbers of these shown to gain acceptance. It will take a well coordinated effort among CL breeders. It will take years, but learning the ins and outs of showing birds at an APA level will make it easier. It is important to separate this effort from the "new breed" fad. dak
I can help with the APA admission requirements etc. It will take at least 5 years to get them in the SOP and probably longer as the breed is so new. I was in on the Marans qualifications and all other new breeds or variety for the last 25 years.I can help with the APA admission requirements etc. It will take at least 5 years to get them in the SOP and probably longer as the breed is so new. I was in on the Marans qualifications and all other new breeds or variety for the last 25 years. Walt
37. 10-3-12
This is a breed that I am unfamiliar with, but Cheryl Cohen has some and has sold some in this area, so I have seen them. I believe hers are from GFF. If this is a utility breed it should be bred to retain that utility. I have never seen a breed that could not win in a show and still produce as it was meant to produce. I am not saying that people don't concentrate on one or the other, but when these breeds originated they did the job they were designed to do. What happens is that along the way the breeders select for either utility or show and that is where they make the mistake. The Marans had that problem but it is turning around. There are show birds now that lay dark eggs.
Write a history, write a Standard (in the format that the APA already uses) and coordinate breeders to raise birds for the qualifying meet. I can give you suggestions or direction along the way. Generally the biggest hurdle is everyone agreeing on the breed description. Walt
50. 10-3-12
That is great, Thanks Walt!
Now we need to get that document together. I am happy to do it, but I think others are also working on it. Does it need to be completed by next weekend or a work in progress? I think some elements will take time to discuss. Phage
You have all kinds of time to complete it. I am just mentioning to the Board that it is starting. You have a lot to work though. Two points I see right away is crest or no crest and the production abilities. I assume from looking at CL's in this area that they are primarily and egg laying breed. Generally an autosexing breed is that way to get rid of the males early on. If you are getting rid of the males, then they are usually not for meat. Walt
43. 10-3-12
I was going to suggest that we contact Walt, but he showed up on his own.....................I think it's fate! Thanks Walt! debs_flock
Nothing mysterious...DAK asked me to participate. Walt
45. 10-3-12
The APA format is the format you will see when looking at an APA Standard. Any breed. Take the New Hamps as an example. See that it starts with a description of the bred and how it came about. Then Economic qualities, Disqualifications, weights. The shape of male and female..... then color of both. Just use the same sequence. I will make note of this effort in my report to the Board that will be read at Lucasville, OH this next weekend. There need not be a formal request yet, as you are 5 years away, but just so the Board knows. Walt
50. 10-3-12
That is great, Thanks Walt!
Now we need to get that document together. I am happy to do it, but I think others are also working on it. Does it need to be completed by next weekend or a work in progress? I think some elements will take time to discuss. Phage
You have all kinds of time to complete it. I am just mentioning to the Board that it is starting. You have a lot to work though. Two points I see right away is crest or no crest and the production abilities. I assume from looking at CL's in this area that they are primarily and egg laying breed. Generally an autosexing breed is that way to get rid of the males early on. If you are getting rid of the males, then they are usually not for meat. Walt
59. 10-3-12
I will be available to give you what the APA will need as you go along. If you keep me in the loop there will be less redoing of the documents. The APA only requires the short history, but as noted you want the whole history.....or as much as you can find.
You probably want to start with some goals and processes, so that there is less confusion and differences of opinions. There will be differences of opinions.....there always is once you have more than one person doing it.
Lay out the basics. Kind of comb as an example as I see someone is working on a rosecomb. It is much easier if you have some of this determined before you get too far into it. Crested or not crested.....etc. Walt
76. 10-3-12
Tail moderately full at an angle of 45 degrees from the line of the back. (How is this judged? Looking over my male photos it seems more upright, couldn’t find one that suited this specification on internet. Is there a common US breed with a similar 45 degree tail to consider) redchicken9
Figures 10 -11 in the APA SOP shows how this is determined. Pg 139 of the 2010 SOP shows what 45 degrees looks like on the Sicilian Buttercup male. The picture of the male here shows a 90 degree tail, which is a DQ in every breed except the Japanese bantam.
Walt
87. 10-3-12
Dear Walt, ignorance will no longer be bliss for me! Thanks for the tail information, I suspected as much as 90 degrees! redchicken9
Where are you in Norcal. I'm in Santa Rosa.
88. 10-3-12
The way I see it there are several things that need to be accomplished and a to-do list would help. Volunteers can then figure out where they want help.
Here's a preliminary that I'm seeing develop:
1. Standard Committee
a. Confirm UK standard as accurate and current
b. Place UK Standard in APA Format
i Americanize/define descriptors like colors, etc.
ii Research and summarize history of breed
c. Draft APA formatted standard and submit to membership for comments period
d. Finalize an APA approvable draft standard incorporating consensus of members
e. Begin standardizing breeding with the goal of APA acceptance based on approved draft standard
2. Club Committee --- can't have a membership without a club
a. Mission statement
b. Bylaws
i officers
ii webmaster and website if there will be one
iii membership
(a) Voting
(b) benefits of membership
(c) newsletter?
(d) dues
-- what will dues support? Registry, website, forums?
c. Club name & logo
i copyright?
d. Legal status of Club if any - Non-profit education? Laingcroft
#1 is a very good plan. Walt
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102. 10-4-12
Omaeve, I think Lonnyandrinda is going to do the membership. Is there anything else you might want to be involved with? I know you have expressed interest from the beginning! BYC is as fine a place as any to get going! We still haven't had any BYC give official feedback on the use of content that may be used at an American Cream Legbar (is this the suggested name? does it need to be American, just asking?) site. File storage on BYC. Are we all good knowing files are elsewhere? GaryDean26 keep us in the loop on where and links. redchicken9
Usually....American is only used when the birds here are different than the birds in the country of origin. Walt
109. 10-4-12
I was told by a chap in the UK that got Cream Legbars 12-13 years ago that the website above is the best reference that he has come across for what his mentor's flock looked like and what he was trying to breed to. I actually met the owner of the site via a Marans chicken group.
I like that site too. I feel it is one of the best on the Internet but have noticed that most of the on-line histories (that one included) have a common error in them that contradicts a primary source that I found written by R.C. Punnett. So...I think for a history we are best to search for primary sources. GaryDean26
The males on that website look more silver to me than cream. I am just learning this breed, but that seems at odds with the color description. Walt
112. 10-4-12
This was my boy that I lost this summer. If we could find a picture we could use it to create a linear template. I could cut out the silhouette and then place angle lines on it for a visual chart similar to the drawing I see on the Marans site. We could use the closest 'ideal' silhouette and to indicate slopes of back and stance even the triangular wedge body. blackbirds13
Great idea. Generally you don't want to see a definite angle at the base of the tail, it should have a smooth transition. When the tail coverts are not adequate or the tail is too high, you see an angle. His color looks closer to the description of a male than the males on that web site. Walt
113. 10-4-12
I thought the same, but it could be the photos too.
It is an interesting site to read! babymakes6
I allowed for color shifts etc that occur in the digital world, but our monitors are not that far off. You can enlarge it and you won't see any yellow/creme pixels. Walt
115. 10-4-12
My suspicion -- not knowledge -- is that a whole lot of Cream Legbars, particularly the ones the British favor -- are silver. normanack
How do they justify the CL color Standard if the males don't match it? Walt
119. 10-4-12
Thanks Walt. I was crushed when I lost him. I am going to have a lot of work ahead of me to recreate him (without his other flaws) but I have 6 boys I managed to hatch out that he sired so hopefully in a year or two...or three.... His color was really nice and I also thought closer to their SOP. blackbirds13
Your male was too dark, but he wasn't silver looking. The Marans folks had very similar challenges. Walt
124. 10-4-12
To finish out the male, here's lines 15-44. Once again, (yes) means understood, even if mine does not represent this.
What do your males look like? Does anyone have a male that meets the color of the cream Legbar standard? ChicKat, Stoneunhenged, do you? Others? Please post your male and discuss it within the CL standards.
Here and in the UK, is there a cream color? Have "we" lost it? I've seen what I'd call white/silver. In places, such as the hackles and saddle, there is yellow (and rust) (what is the pale gold described below).
For comparison, Punnett describes his male as "barred all over, though the general effect is definitely lighter and softer than in a barred breed such as the Plymouth Rock. At the same time the pale gold of the hackles and the bright chestnut of the wing coverts lead to his presenting an appearance at once brilliant and quite unlike that of the male of any recognized breed."
16. Neck: Long and profusely covered with feathers. (yes)
17a. Legs and Feet: Legs moderately long. (yes)
17b.Shanks strong, round and free of feathers. (yes)
17c. Flat shins objectionable. (what does this mean?)
17d. Toes, four, long, straight and well spread. (yes)
18. Plumage: Of silky texture, free from coarse or excessive feather. (yes)
19. Handling: Firm with abundance of muscle. (yes)
20. Neck hackles cream, sparsely barred. (yes understood) (mine is not, I’d describe mine as peppered silver, yellow, and rust)
21. Saddle hackles cream, barred with dark grey, tipped with cream. (yes) (mine yellow and rust)
22. Back and shoulders cream with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible. (yes) (high amount of chestnut/rust)
23. Wings, primaries dark grey, faintly barred, some white permissible; (yes) (see photo: no barring) It is what I would call faintly barred...maybe not the best example, but you can see it is barred What I like about this bird is that it doesn’t have white in the wings.
24. secondaries dark grey more clearly marked; (yes) (see photo: no marking)
25. coverts grey barred, tips cream, some chestnut smudges permissible. (yes)(see photo: very chestnut, tips without light color)
26. Breast evenly barred dark grey, well defined outline. (yes) (mine not well defined)
27. Tail evenly barred grey, sickles being paler, some white feather permissible. (yes)
28. Crest cream and grey, some chestnut permissible. (yes) (mine does not have much of a crest, yellow in it)
29. Beak yellow. (yes)
30. Eyes orange or red. (yes)
31. Comb, face, and wattles red. (yes)
32. Ear-lobes pure opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings not unduly to handicap an otherwise good male. (yes) (mine with red, already gave away one lighter male due to pure red ear-lobes)
33. Legs and feet yellow. (yes) (mine poor yellow)
34. Weights
Male 2.70-3.40kg (6 - 7 lb) (yes) (assume mine is in this range)
35. Serious defects:
Male's comb twisted or falling over, (yes)
36. Ear-lobes wholly red. (yes)
37. Any white in face. (yes)
38. Legs other than orange, yellow or light willow. (yes)
39.Squirrel tail.(yes)
40. Disqualifications: Side sprigs on comb. (yes)
41. Eye pupil other than round and clearly defined. (yes)
42. Crooked breast. (yes)
43.Wry tail. (yes)
44. Any bodily deformity. (yes) redchicken9
The leg color looks good in the photo. That is an easy fix unless the legs are the wrong color. When you folks write the Standard be sure that you don't back yourselves into a corner by writing something that can't be attained.
Great idea to have bird pics posted to discuss as a group. I have included in my SOP report for this weekend at Lucasville OH that you folks are working on a Standard for the CL's. Walt
125. 10-4-12
The roosters pictured on your link are what the standard describes as I read it and that is what we should be breeding toward if we are going to maintain the Cream Legbar as it currently exists in the UK. It is not what I am seeing in my own rooster and pictures posted here, which is crele i.e. barred black and red.
The geneticists, APA judges or other experts, please feel free to correct me as this is my current understanding and I'm still learning. First, the base color of the Cream Legbar appears to be a "dusty black" or what is seen by the eye as dark gray as opposed to black. The "cream" is where the double dose of barring is not blocking distribution of pigment i.e. the white part --- not a diluted red i.e. pale lemon/buff mixed in with the lack of pigment which is what I see in the top of my roo's neck (pictured here)
and hen lower neck hackles
rooster hackles blending to red/chestnut back and saddle. I think this is more than "some chestnut permitted."
What all of this boils down to is a basic decision. Are we as a group going to breed to the UK standard as it is, which is more 'silver/gray' than what we all seem to have or are we going to breed the "American" Cream Legbar based upon what we all seem to have, which is a bird that contains a lot of chestnut/red/buff/lemon. Laingcroft
As a judge, the males in the link do not fit the color description as they appear in the pictures. None of the males I have seen do. They are either too light or too dark where they should be cream. Walt
328. 10-22-12
I guess this thread has been in action a little over a week, and we have covered a lot of ground.
Redchicken9 has done a lot of work along with the help of participants in this thread to move toward a draft SOP that could be used for USA Cream Legbars.
Please fill in what I have left out:
1. SOP should not be so unachievable that all our birds are excluded (I think Walt provided this insight)
2. SOP isn't where we are, but where we are aiming to be (borrowed from another club)
3. some wording from the UK will need to be changed for the USA, and the format for the eventual SOP will match the requirements of the APA
4. Among the changes we will most likely drop 'olive eggs' from the characteristics of the Cream Legbar in the USA
Blackbirds13 has designed some home-run logo choices for the club, and another example or two may filter in by the time that the club wants to vote.
I said I would put together something that could be worked from -- within the week for a goal for the club--
ETA - for revision and word smithing I have assembled this for the group's additions and subtractions to:
The Mission of the American Cream Legbar Club is to promote and preserve as well as educate about the breed of Chicken developed by R.C. Punnett that is an autosexing, blue-egg-laying, and crested light fowl.
Club Goals include:
• Working toward application for recognition by the APA using standards that have been adapted from the British standards
• Establishing the first Chicken Pedigree Database to track the chicken background and genetics of Cream Legbar chickens
• Establish support between owners of Cream Legbars which are first developed by Punnett
some folks on Yahoo Cream Legbar are working on the history of the birds...and folks from this forum are invited over there to participate.....
Tentatively redchicken9 said that a draft of a SOP or at the least summaries of the ideas from this group would be ready in 30-days or so....which is a reasonable time line considering how much discussion has been raised in this thread thus far. I think everyone needs to understand too---that the draft that is produced is probably the place the club will start from to continue to refine within the Cream Legbar Club.
Also:
cut and pasted from post 309, Laingcroft has said that there is parallel work going on for those who want to go to Yahoo groups and participate. Here is the quote:
Wow! I've been away for a weekend w/out internet access and this thread has just exploded!
While I catch up on the fifteen new pages of information, I'd like to add that I've just opened a yahoo group for those of us working on specific documents i.e. standard, history and club formation stuff which is getting buried here. The group is titled US Cream Legbar Club Working Group since I didn't want to use the "official" club name until we have one. I've set the group for initial membership approval and for first postings to prevent spam bots. Just reference BYC in the request to join so I know you're part of this working group. Please post drafts with date and author to the files section so everyone knows which copies have been superceded. Hopefully this will make specific docs/drafts easier to find and work with while those wishing to toss ideas and discuss in general can continue here.
There is also another group I forgot I had joined several months back called the Cream Legbar Breeders. Some folks there, who may also be here, have recently begun working on a Legbar history. They may be interested in joining this discussion as well.
ETA = last and not least....if redchicken9 feels that club formation is hijacking the thread...then club formation can be moved elsewhere....and perhaps the Yahoo group that Laingcroft recommends is the place. Otherwise...perhaps - information from that group could be reported back here. I'm thinking that the SOP and the club would go hand in hand........
so---what is still left to be done. ChicKat
Your 4 points should work as they relate to the APA. This is a very organized effort. Great to see!! Walt
350. 10-12-12
I’m not understanding why we would want to completely eliminate the small definitive spot on the female.
I believe it occurs because these are barred, brown based birds. Barring is sex-linked so males get a double dose and females a single and this barring is indicated by the light patch on the chick’s head. In black down the patch can be very similar at times but in brown chicks the head spot is supposed to be minute and defined in the females but spread out over the the body of the male which is why they have that blurred effect and females look sharper.
From what I’ve read and researched the standards were written with that color difference from black to brown in mind and my vote is to maintain the head spot since it has been a long standing standard and occurs more often than not. But if folks want to cull for it they should but it is a feature of the auto-sexing nature of the breeds that make up the Cream Legbar. I can't imagine how many birds will need to be culled and for how long to eliminate the head spot and if this is an aspect of the breed we can really ever eliminate. I don’t intend to cull for it as it is easily discernible and I do not think it affects the ability to auto-sex if you cull hard for large spots on females or those with discontinuous stripping like the one in the image posted earlier of a breeding pair or males with small spots and discernible stripping or eyeliner. I worry about separating out the production and what some are calling the show qualities. I'm not understanding why there needs to be two varieties and worry about the long term implications as was seen and is still seen with some breeds like the Black Copper Marans - dark eggs vs correct plumage and type. Are folks having production problems with their birds more so than would be expected? And if anyone can explain why there would be a need to achieve each differently that would be helpful. If we create a standard that is not met by either the "production" variety or the "show" variety would it still be a Cream Legbar? blackbirds13
There should be only one form. One that fills both needs. Production and show. A person can get better egg production if they breed for a hybrid that is an excellent egg layer, but you can already buy autosexing birds that do that. Hatcheries have them. My understanding is that you folks want to keep the production qualities that the CL's already have, and also keep the look of the birds relatively consistent. I don't see a problem keeping birds that you can show that will also be great egg layers.
The Marans is an excellent example of how a breed can go downhill if only one quality is being bred for....and let me add...by people that have no idea what they were doing. Finally there are BC Marans that look and perform as they should, but there is still a lot of work to be done and still a lot of junk to be bred out. As an example the Pene combs. The advantage you have is that there are so few of these that the folks who like "projects" haven't gotten them and hybridized them yet. Trust me...someone will want a naked necked, frizzled, purple egg laying CL before long. Walt
387. 10-16-12
I don't know if the cresting color needs to be discussed or not, but the dark black crests are obviously not to standard.
I don't have any knowledge of the definitions used by APA for body types, but did look for photos to use as examples to be discussed.
Is this RIR wedge shaped? It is deeper (distance from back to keel bone) at the tail than at the shoulders. I am told that laying breeds all are deeper at the tail.
http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/7/7f/7f9b0543_P2070078.jpeg
How about this BCM? Is it wedge shaped. It is narrower at the tail than at the the shoulders. I think that for for laying breeds you want a wide body at the tail. Pinched tails won't be good layers. The same is true for dual purpose birds. I think that some of the meat birds can have pinched tails as it can make for a body type with more breast meat.
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/21719698/sn/382424198/name/099.jpg
Other photos and comments are welcome. GaryDean26
RIR's are brick shaped and BCM's are more of a bowl shape. The CLB's are a completely different body form. Pinched tails are usually a sign of an unthrifty bird. Good-laying breeds are generally slim birds like Leghorns in body type. Walt
388. 10-16-12
faykokoWV - Hooray for the Welsummers people -- that allow for individual differences..... Wouldn't it be great if our Crested Legbars could also include some variations for the exact same reason that specific lines could be identified and each may have a more colorful or more pale rooster, for example...but the egg-laying, behavior, body-type, and autosexing apply to everyone's lines.....
So a variation within reason -- would be such a great thing.
I have to say too, I have never heard of anyone with our type of chickens (i'm now calling crested legbars) having any problem sexing the chicks at a very young age - like once they are fluffed....There were some early on that we were asking each other about....but now it seems pretty obvious.
ETA - are Welsummers standards online for review/reference? And yes...I don't think it would be wise to pick just one color and say -- you can only have this color and the rest of the poultry is ousted..... For example if we said everyone's egg color must be A1 on the Ameraucana or Araucana egg color chart.... It would be selecting on only one trait at the expense of others. Not a good idea IMO. ChicKat
The APA is very specific about the color of Wellies. Maybe some keepers of Wellies don't care what color they are, but the SOP is clear and the judges understand it. There is always slight differences in parti colored birds, but that is nature and those differences need to be subtle to fit with the Standard color description. The slight differences are usually found in females.
If you want these in the APA SOP you have to decide on color. If you have a range of colors that are acceptable....why have a Standard for color? The crest ....if in the description will have to have a color description. Every part of the bird needs to have an accurate color description with very little leeway in shades.
The APA will requires that all lines of CL's use the same color description. This is why it is good to start on this now if you want this breed accepted by the APA. Walt
407. 10-16-12
for me its kind of like matching dark blue socks - I can see the difference in the shades of dark blue very easily, but my husband thinks they all look like the same blue - that's what I mean by variations in color. Gold can be a yellow gold or an orange gold and still be considered gold. i hope that makes sense. they are drastic differences. faykokoWV
I understand what you are saying...that is why the color description needs to be accurate. Judges are trained to understand the color descriptions in the SOP. The keepers of CL's need to know APA/ABA terminology before you folks get too far into this. Someone ....at least one person needs to own a 2010 APA Standard, so that this is not a blue sock issue. Until someone working on this project reads at least the first 40 pages of the SOP all of this will be like looking at blue socks. So far I have seen three different colors being called CL's...not subtle shades of color ...three pretty different colored males....with varying shades within those three. Walt
418. 10-17-12
So a question I asked on the other Legbar thread awhile back. Will Legbars be in the English class or will they be put in the AOSB class like the Marans (which should have been continental in my opinion since they are French)? flyingmonkeypoop
Marans are in the Continental class. Walt
421. 10-17-12
Walt, Is it OK if I post some pictures/pages of the standard, as it relates to discussion? redchicken9
The APA has a strong copyright rule that does not allow people to copy type or illustrations that are in their Standard. They very seldom make an exception. You could use a description if you changed the wording, if that is any help. Best to run it by me in a PM though, as they do enforce their copyrights. I would guess that the British/Australian Standards are protected as well. Just checked the Aussie Standard and it is. Sorry! Walt
423. 10-17-12
Larry Urban said that they are in AOSB. I will have to look into this, he said they were in the wrong class when they were in the Continental class when he judged. I guess I just figured a judge would know so I went off of what he said without looking for my self :( flyingmonkeypoop
As you probably know......don't believe everything Larry tells you. A judge is supposed to know which class they are in, but to be fair..........judges are also supposed to read the APA newsletter, yearbook etc and it is their duty to keep up with changes and additions to the Standard. Always do your own research....especially if there is a question from the beginning. I helped get the Marans into the SOP, so you can believe me when I say they are in the Continental class. Your instincts were right on with the French connection.
Also a very good question you posed about what class the Legbars should be in. The English Class makes sense. Walt
491. 10-21-12
The only thing based on what Fowlman01 indicated earlier, I think if the standard mirrors the UK standard, then the bird is the cream Legbar (we don't get to name what already is). If there are differences but great similarities, it is the American cream Legbar. If it's radically different then maybe we vote. I'm saying this because I'm not certain that its a matter of our creativity. Fowlman01 can you comment?
Thank-you many times over! We still need a few more people to do this. redchicken9
This would be correct. Walt
499. 10-24-12
I am not sure if anyone commented on this or not, but the bird on the left seems to meet the description .....so far, but the bird on the right does not.
Breast: Prominent, well-developed, carried forward and upright....the bird on the left is a good example and the one on the right not so good. Bird on the right back is too short and has excessive tail angle...note that the lower breast is flat and not rounded. I would suggest using the bird on the left as the proper example of the breed type.
When looking at the beak length be sure the beak does not need trimming as that will make it look longer.
Does anyone have white in the face of a young bird? This is a DQ in Leghorns...something to consider?? Walt
501. 10-24-12
Something to think about with combs- how many points do we want? I think a comb with 5 points looks more balanced. I don't think the standard allows for a variable amount of points (5-7) but I may be wrong. flyingmonkeypoop
The Brits and Aussies allow for a range of points in their Standards, but the APA doesn't. It is 1/2 point deduction for more or less points (each) in the APA SOP. Walt
508. 10-25-12
With a set number being the requirement....and most of the existing birds having 6 points....and one poster preferring 5 and one preferring 7, then if we have to pick one number, I think it should be 6. (can you actually determine the number of points in the comb by selectively breeding?) -
For those who want fewer or more, they can certainly develop their own flock that way, - In a show their 'diversion' from SOP would cost 1/2 point in the show ring....but they could make up for it in other areas. It will be many decades if ever before any of our birds meet SOP.
So perhaps the person with a 7-point comb has perfect confirmation and the person with a 5-point comb has perfect color in 5-years when the first show occurs....(with the exception of the one here on BYC - which should hold the record of the first show in the USA...hooray for initiative.) ChicKat
The comb is the least of your worries. Judges don't go overboard on the amount of points. As an example: there is a RIR male bird that has the poultry community all excited because most of us have not seen a bird this good. It has two extra points and no one is even mentioning that!
The Leghorn has 5 points, but the APA does not tell you how many to specify in your Standard. Walt
549. 10-29-12
As a poultry judge my opinion is that the birds best showing what you want in a CL are the Scar birds a few pages back. The crest may be overdone....not sure as I am unclear what the crest should look like. Keep in mind what you "like" has no bearing on what the birds 'should" look like.....that is if you want them to replicate the breed as it was developed by the British. If you want something different they can look like anything you like.
Photo's of chickens will never show an accurate picture of the bird. They just give you an idea of what the bird looks like. You then must take your Standard and look to see if the chicken meets the description. No chicken is going to meet the description perfectly.
You will need a description of the crest in your Standard. Walt
594. 11-3-12
Once you folks get this close in description I can review it and make suggestions on how to describe it to fit into the APA terminology.
A word of caution. Pictures found on the web of CL's may or may not be correct. There are a lot of incorrect pictures posted on web sites that have huge followings, so people assume that they are correct. They may be, but in many cases they are not correct.
You folks are doing an excellent job of hammering this out. Most of the time I am in the sad position of telling the people that want a new breed or variety that they need to start over because they bring it to me as a completed description without knowing what the format or terminology needs to be. I have been called a meanie and other things that I can't post when our committee rejects the proposed Standard. Great job!
Any of you with a APA Standard should read the first 39 pages. Most people don't do this and then wonder why they don't understand the rest of the book. Walt
611. 11-6-12
When looking for info on the CL description, only believe what the British Standard says about how they should look. I am finding a ton of misinformation about these online as I try to get a handle on how they should look. Most folks want them to look like the ones in their back yard.....the problem is that the ones in their back yard don't look the same either. Walt
614. 11-6-12
Could this be because they change quite a lot as they grow out? Is it possible that the biggest appearance differences are due to the age of the cockerels?
To my eyes they show quite a lot of uniformity if the bird of the same age of development is compared with another one. Obviously I'm not a poultry judge, -- and we are going by a split second photograph here which makes it more difficult to compare apples to apples....
A very young clb male looks a lot different from the older cockerel, but comparing cohorts with the same age -- they look a lot alike to me. Would it be easy to point out some of the things I am missing? Thanks. ChicKat
I understand age differences in color. I have been judging chickens for over 35 years and successfully breeding for over 45 years, so maybe my eye is too critical. To me the type and color of males and females is all over the place...this is why I am saying to be sure you pick the correct type and color here in the beginning. The first step is to understand how a chicken is put together and then to understand ...or agree what the color should be. They are never going to be perfect and they will always have differences in color, but those differences should be small differences.
My original post that you responded to was more of .......be careful of what you read and see online as it is many times quite wrong. Check multiple sources. There are well respected websites that have pitiful pictures of CL's and one could assume that is the way they should look. Walt
618. 11-7-12
Back and Shoulders: Cream and dark grey irregular barring. (Here I don’t know whether to add in more. BPS: Some chestnut permissible. I haven’t yet seen in the ASP where a color leakage is mentioned on any other bird. Is this permissible? Those that know more, please comment). (redchicken9 ?)
I had never heard the word "leakage" used to describe color showing where it shouldn't until I joined BYC. You should probably use the British wording with this. It will work for the APA SOP as well. "some chestnut permissible". This seems to occur frequently in this breed. The APA has separate designations for HEAD and NECK even when the color is the same. Walt
628. 11-8-12
Since Blackbirds13 has shared some of her breeding plans, here are what mine looks like to date.
My lightest roo was/ is the #4 rooster. Knowing what I do today, I might have made my first choices different. Can anyone tell me, what is harder to breed for a correct color earlobe or the correct color plumage? Before reading and trying to learn the standards, and based on having red earlobes, his personality, photos of other roos at prominent breeders, and my personal color preference at the time, I gave my #4 roo to a friend, who gave him to a friend. However, I think I am raising a few of his offspring. He was 1 of 2 roos with my B line prior to re-homing. I carry 2 flocks, A and B, so this is one way I manage genetic diversity. I plan to keep female offspring with female lineage (mom, grandmas, aunts, sisters) and rotate male offspring, as I improve each flock. I read about it as a breed style option in The Small Scale Poultry Flock by Harvey Ussery, which I do recommend for those interested. If I remember correctly if you carry a flock of three you should be able to do this to the end of time. With two flocks, I believe it's many decades. The other choice I've made is to build trap nesting boxes, also shown in the Harvey Ussery book. From this point, when I have the time and choose, I can track my mama's offspring (not just the dads). Like all new things, this could change and improve. Current plans are to move my flock towards cream and/or bluer eggs. Ok, enough for now! Thanks all! redchicken9
In this breed I would say the correct color would be harder to get than the color of the lobes. Trap nesting is an excellent idea. The only way to make forward progress is to know who the parents are of every bird you own. There are many ways to get to your destination, but all of them require good records and heavy culling. Toe punching the chicks is a very good way to have a permanent way to know the parents of the young. Whatever you do you need to keep track of the young. I don't breed from young birds...this is so that I know what they are really like. Sometimes birds change in the second year. You have to use what you have though.
Toe punching is done at hatch and the chicks don't even wince when this is done.
Walt
682. 11-14-12
If you go with enamel white for the earlobes, the red that you sometimes find is addressed in other parts of the APA SOP. It is considered a minor cut.
Finally received my British Standard. They sure don't describe very much...the Australian Standard doesn't either. Walt
685. 11-15-12
Walt, is there something you could tell us about white versus enamel-white? Is it in the brightness of color or the sheen on the surface? redchicken9
When you see enamel white used it is to make you think of ...refrigerator white. The finish (glossy or flat) is not an issue. Walt
687. 11-15-12
Yes, I like the American Standard of Perfection. It allows you to readily compare attributes and has a fairly extensive glossary and set of figures, not to mention discussion on the interpretation of the standard. But, I'd say the British's color feather plates and pen and ink drawings are rather good. You could frame them and hang them on your wall. That is if chicken decor or scientific and nature drawings are your thing! redchicken9
The APA did have color plates of the feathers, but for some reason discontinued them in the 80's. The true color of feathers can't be reproduced with the printing process, but it is close enough to get the idea. The Brits are really into the color of chickens and assign more weight to color than we do. The type on their breeds is many times quite different than the type of the same breed here. That is not the so much the case of breeds originated in Great Britain, but the other classes...Mediterranean, Continental etc don't look like the birds in the US. As an example: their Marans have clean legs and the French and US have feathered legs. Walt
747. 12-8-12
An insight to female Cream Legbar coloring----
on this website:
https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsonline/gallery
look at the hen in the lower left corner of the Cream Legbars--- it reminds me of CJWaldon's hen in her avatar--- that hen's comb is like a red crown - which ties back to the picture of Kate (Duchess of Cambridge) Middleton in the red hat. ChicKat
This is a great example of the proper color of CL's. Walt
749. 12-9-12
Walt, are you referring to a particular hen or to the ones identified as "correctly coloured"? I am of little brain and easily confused. :-) normanack
I am talking about all the birds labeled as correct color. A lot of the CL's I see posted have evidence of foreign color as shown in the off colored birds in this comparison. Walt
814. 12-28-12
The most important part of a chicken is the body. Coloration is secondary. When the CL's go for qualifying, the judges will be looking at the body and your description of how it should look well before they look at color. Walt
K3
K3
| Post # | Post |
| 654 | As far as the APA is concerned the bird has to look like the description proposed and breed 50% true. The 50% is to cover complex colors like this. The decision has to be made on what the description will say. If the description ends up different than the British description, we will want to know why it is different. It can be different, but we will need a good reason why it is different. |
| 664 | The color description should match the appearance of the actual bird.....not so much what genes are used to create the bird. When the CL are accepted, the APA will use your description of "Cream" and that can be put in the glossary as well. As far as judges.....the Legbar Club should start a campaign to educate judges to the CL's color. The type is Leghorn so they should not have a problem with that part. |
| It will hurt the acceptance if at the APA qualifying meet the birds look to different. Slight color shades would not be a problem, but if they look like they are each a different color pattern that will hurt. I have seen about four color 'looks" in these...both in person and here online. | |
| 669 | Yes, short backs are part of the problem. I just noticed something else with the British Standard. Their Leghorns are quite different than our Leghorns in type, so saying the body should look like a Leghorn can be a problem....... Since I don't think these will ever look like a APA leghorn, we night want to be low key on the comparison and just go with the description that fits the birds type. The British description of the Legbars type seems to cover the look we have here with the CL's. The last picture of the male here shows that there is not a break of severe angle to the tail. It has a gradual sweep to the tail. That looks more like the Leghorns in both countries. |
| 718 | t is always better to have more than 50 birds in the event some are DQ'd or do not score high enough. I am posting a qualifying meet report. This is the only one I can find and it unfortunately is hand written, but you can see the comments. A numerical score is not used these days. |
| 728 | Do you ever wonder why geneticists don't agree on everything?...and why they can't make good birds? I have only seen one geneticist talk the talk and walk the walk....most of it is talk. That would be Fred Jeffrey. He published several books. |
| 731 | This is just my opinion, but it is based on 50 years of doing this at a level that some would say is successful. |
| You folks can talk about it, you can teach it and you can argue about it, but the bottom line is that people don't know what they are dealing with in terms of the genetic makeup of their birds. Some have had these for a good while now, but it takes several years to find out what these birds are really carrying. You first need to have your five APA members lined up, then decide on one color Standard. There is some flexibility, so it does not have to match the British Standard exactly...but we would need a compelling reason why it is different. There are many examples of differences in the APA Standard and the country of origins Standard. So, we can be somewhat flexible. Try for one color version first......so you will need to decide that at some point. | |
| At the qualifying meet the birds entered only need to look like the description given to the APA. The APA does not care what genes they are carrying as long as they reproduce 50% correct....with the normal variations that any color pattern would have. There will be a great need for the education of the public and especially the judges. Judges respect breed clubs that promote their breeds. They have no problem learning about a breed from the people that breed them. .....99% of them anyway.....and I can guarantee that whoever the judge is that will do the qualifying meet that they will be easy to work with. If it is somewhere I can get to, it will probably be me doing the judging. | |
| I will help you in any way I can. The timeline is up to you folks and I am glad that you are taking your time and trying to have your Standard correct rather than rush and have problems. | |
| Good job to all who have participated! | |
| 739 | It would be better to have more than 5. Five years is a long time and things sometimes alter our course. You don't want to start over. You need to place the meet in an area where you have good support. |
| 740 | This color pattern will naturally have more color variations than most other color combinations. Usually but not always the males are easier to get the proper color than females. The judging will allow for some variations at the qualifying meet. They should look similar though. |
| 776 | I agree. |
| ? | most of the breeds in the APA Standard are composite breeds as are the CL's. Some of the best Delaware chickens now are the result of going back and recreating them using New Hampshires and Plymouth Rocks. |
| 798 | That is correct. If you sign an APA voucher swearing that you raise these for 5 years and they produce 50% true and they don't......well that is cheating. if you don't tell people that you are selling them a genetic mess that will not produce the birds the customer expects ......that is cheating. If you have a hybrid that looks like a CL and enter it in a show that is not cheating, but you will rarely do well and would probably only have one or two specimens that would be showable until everything is genetically "fixed". |
Thanks too to Walt.