Entry into Hobby and Level 1 Cert Questions

[Denver Racing Sim Ltd.]

Hello, All. 

I recently went down a YouTube rabbit hole regarding rockets. Upon researching more, I found your club. 

I read through the website and would really love to be part of this group.

My main question is: Where should I start with a Level 1 Cert, specially in regards to kit pros and cons. 

My interest lies in the fabrication aspect of the hobby as I am a fabricator by trade. I am looking for a kit that's both challenging but won't burn me out on my first attempt. I love all the telemetry electronics as I have a background in computer science as well but, again, need something that will provide easy to learn on without leading me into burnout. 

Long question short; What would you recommend for a first-timer that is fun and would allow me to get fabrication and electronics experience. I don't plan on knocking anything out in a short amount of time and I am planning on visiting you guys at the next meeting to meet you all.

Thank you in advance. 

Sincerely, 

Andrew

[wull...@gmail.com]

Hi Andrew,

There are many rocket clubs here in Colorado. So far as I know, C.R.A.S.H. has the closest launch site to the Denver Metro area and is very beginner friendly. You can expect see people launching everything from the smallest Estes-style rockets to high-power rockets at their site as well as all of the other clubs launch sites that I've been at.  It's a fun hobby for everyone who likes rockets.

Apogee Rockets has a website with a lot of construction videos and other information plus a huge selection of kits and parts, from Estes all the way up to L2 level kits. They also sell a variety of rocket-related electronics. Here's a good L1 kit that they have: 

https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket-Kits/Skill-Level-3-Model-Rocket-Kits/Zephyr

Note that there are regulations associated with the use of high-power rockets like these, so you should also got to the National Association of Rocketry site (nar.org) for more information, if you haven't done so already.

Hope this helps,

Ed

[Roland Halpern]

Hi Andrew,

We've had quite a few Level 1 certs lately and it seems the most popular rocket has been the Zephyr, as Ed mentioned, which is rated as a level 3 build (not level 3 rocket) meaning it's in between simple and complicated (average) with respect to assembly etc. The Madcow 4" Cowabunga is another possibility, also in the middle with respect to building expertise. There are a lot of other rocket kits that can be used for Level 1 certification. Some of the other rocketeers may have suggestions/recommendations as well. CRASH is a NAR chapter so your paperwork, etc., has to NAR and you also need to be an NAR member (https://www.nar.org/join-nar/). Information on the Level 1 requirements can be found here: https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-1-hpr-certification-procedures/.  Let us know when you're ready to launch and we'll make sure we have people there who can certify your flight. Visit our website, https://www.crashonline.org/ for more info. Let us know if you have any other questions.

Roland - CRASH

On Monday, March 25, 2024 at 11:39:14 AM UTC-6 ra...@denverracingsim.com wrote:

[brian blueoats.net]

Andrew, Thanks for contacting us as we welcome all new comers!  You can use any rocket for a L1 cert that you build that will accept a H impulse motor.  A good one that allot of people use is the Apogee Zepher available on Apogees web site.

 

One question I would have before you try that is what other rockets have you flown?  There’s no requirement, however I went through the motor impulses until I got to H and failed the first two L1 attempts.  IE A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H.  If you do it that way you will gain allot of experience in how to make rockets work correctly.  They do get progressively harder with bigger motors but If you just want to jump into a L1 rocket you can do that too.  Just be prepared for a not desirable outcome.

 

Hope to see you at the range.

 

GBA

BHcon

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[James Pancoast]

TIL about denverracingsim.com, love the acronym, although hate it's actual use in F1 :) (I have my own rig in the basement, although I haven't used it in a few months)

As someone who jsut did his L1 at CRASH a few months ago, some suggestions:

• Don't worry about electronics the first time around, other than maybe a GPS Tracker if you have or want one.
• Make sure whatever H motor you bring to CRASH is under the 125gram limit 
• Don't hesitate to ask questions, and say hi when you come to a launch!

--

James Pancoast

jam...@jpancoast.dev

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[Ben Maitland]

I second going through all the different motor impulses. Each new bit of power teaches you something different, be it the extra structure or more care needed in recovery. 

There are lots of classic 18mm kits, like the Big Bertha and Der Red Max. For 24mm, my favorite Estes kit is the Vapor. I've recommended it to several friends and they've all enjoyed it. For 29mm I fully throw my whole endorsement behind the Estes Doorknob. Not only does it teach you some techniques used in building higher powered rockets, but it's also an absolute tank and flies beautifully.

--

[brian blueoats.net]

Andrew, The reason I recommend going through the motor impulses is in order to build experience.  The saying is there are 1000 ways to make a rocket fail and crash and only one to make it work correctly.  By building and flying smaller rockets you can learn allot of the tricks that greatly help in not wrecking them.  My first L1 attempt failed because the parachute got hung up and failed to come all the way out as a result of a building error.  Second attempt failed because the motor delay was set wrong.

 

For flying rockets in most places, they don’t like that.  Basically if you can’t do fireworks that leave the ground, you can’t do rockets.  You should join NAR before flying any rockets so that you will be covered by insurance.

 

GBA

BHcon

 

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From: crash...@googlegroups.com <crash...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Denver Racing Sim Ltd. <ra...@denverracingsim.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 1:57:53 PM
To: crash-talk - Colorado Association of Space Hobbyists <crash...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [crash-talk] Entry into Hobby and Level 1 Cert Questions

 

Thank you for your responses Ed, Roland, and Brian. 

I'm happy to see a consistent message throughout all of your responses. I will check out apogee. I did watch a few of his videos but wasn't sure if it's what the clubs used or if he was just trying to sell his products. Nice to see your endorsements here. 

Brian, I love the idea of progressing through the scale of motors. I have 0 experience outside of Estes pre-assembled rocket kits. I have never built one but love the idea of climbing up the impulses. What part did you fail on and what were your solutions? 

With this in mind, what would you recommend? 

On a side note, I would like to launch a little Estes with my daughter this weekend and live in Parker. Is it OK to launch these little guys outside of obvious airspace and fire weather limitations in open spaces?

Thank you, 

Andrew 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/crash-talk/e14ca3e9-9714-4bf6-a820-1b1ddeb55b0cn%40googlegroups.com.

[Ed Wullschleger]

I suggest that you check with the Fire Department of the town of Parker if you want to launch from a city public space. If you know someone who has an acre or so of land who will let you launch an Estes rocket, then that's probably sufficient on their property so long as there are no fire restrictions in place.

On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 7:31 PM Denver Racing Sim Ltd. <ra...@denverracingsim.com> wrote:

Thank you for your responses Ed, Roland, and Brian. 

I'm happy to see a consistent message throughout all of your responses. I will check out apogee. I did watch a few of his videos but wasn't sure if it's what the clubs used or if he was just trying to sell his products. Nice to see your endorsements here. 

Brian, I love the idea of progressing through the scale of motors. I have 0 experience outside of Estes pre-assembled rocket kits. I have never built one but love the idea of climbing up the impulses. What part did you fail on and what were your solutions? 

With this in mind, what would you recommend? 

On a side note, I would like to launch a little Estes with my daughter this weekend and live in Parker. Is it OK to launch these little guys outside of obvious airspace and fire weather limitations in open spaces?

Thank you, 

Andrew 

On Monday, March 25, 2024 at 7:45:49 PM UTC-6 brian blueoats.net wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/crash-talk/e14ca3e9-9714-4bf6-a820-1b1ddeb55b0cn%40googlegroups.com.

[Matt Boyles]

For some reason many of the emails on this topic have been getting stuck in the spam filters. I will keep checking and approving them, but don’t be surprised by a few more out of sequence emails on this topic. 

Sorry about the overeager spam filter,

Matt B. 

Typin' on my phone don't expect much. 

On Mar 30, 2024, at 4:17 PM, Denver Racing Sim Ltd. <ra...@denverracingsim.com> wrote:

This is my first time using google groups, did my last response not come through to you all? It shows something was deleted above, not sure if that was my response or not but I don't want you all to think I'm not responding! Thank you for all of your help!

Can we figure out what happened to my original response or learn why it was deleted.

Thank you for the recommendations! I will go to Apogee to pick up a kit. I did watch his videos but wanted some real-world club member's recommendations before jumping on the first wagon I saw. I will take your suggestion and move my way up through the ratings of the rockets if it does in-fact help future builds and understandings of flaws. 

Brian, I was wondering what happened on your first two attempts and how you were able to overcome them. 

I was also wondering where I can launch a Estes rocket with a small B motor for my daughter around Parker. Is it legal to launch outside of airspace limitations from DIA and Centennial airport down here? Obviously, fire weather is a concern as well. 

James, thank you for checking out DRS! Its my passion project to bring racing hobbyists of the sim world and real world together. It has been a ton of fun meeting all these great drivers and improving my own skills. Thank you for your recommendations. I will keep all that in mind. Do you have a recommendation on GPS?

Marthi, thank you for your response and for endorsing the progression through the impulses! 

I'm looking forward to kicking off my builds soon! 

Sincerely, 

Andrew

On Wednesday, March 27, 2024 at 7:31:46 PM UTC-6 marthi...@gmail.com wrote:

I second going through all the different motor impulses. Each new bit of power teaches you something different, be it the extra structure or more care needed in recovery. 

There are lots of classic 18mm kits, like the Big Bertha and Der Red Max. For 24mm, my favorite Estes kit is the Vapor. I've recommended it to several friends and they've all enjoyed it. For 29mm I fully throw my whole endorsement behind the Estes Doorknob. Not only does it teach you some techniques used in building higher powered rockets, but it's also an absolute tank and flies beautifully.

On Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 11:39 AM Denver Racing Sim Ltd. <ra...@denverracingsim.com> wrote:

Hello, All. 

I recently went down a YouTube rabbit hole regarding rockets. Upon researching more, I found your club. 

I read through the website and would really love to be part of this group.

My main question is: Where should I start with a Level 1 Cert, specially in regards to kit pros and cons. 

My interest lies in the fabrication aspect of the hobby as I am a fabricator by trade. I am looking for a kit that's both challenging but won't burn me out on my first attempt. I love all the telemetry electronics as I have a background in computer science as well but, again, need something that will provide easy to learn on without leading me into burnout. 

Long question short; What would you recommend for a first-timer that is fun and would allow me to get fabrication and electronics experience. I don't plan on knocking anything out in a short amount of time and I am planning on visiting you guys at the next meeting to meet you all.

Thank you in advance. 

Sincerely, 

Andrew

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[JamesR]

Andrew,  good to meet you here, I do not attend crash launches often,  been out to the new site once. I did not see anyone say anything about it but they fly under a rule limiting them to 1500g or 3.3lb with 126 total propellant weight.  There is only a few L1 motors that meet that requirement.  So keep that in mind.   On the kit, there are so many different options,  Loc/PML has a lot of kits, Madcow is another option,  Wildman and a bunch of smaller manufacturers.  I have built some interesting kits this last year from a guy in UT. I am not home right now, I het back Tuesday but I will send you a couple of options then.  Depending on your fab background; fiberglass, carbon fiber, phenolic, wood and paper are the most common materials used. There are a few local vendors, you have heard of Apogee but there is also modelrocketguy.com, moto-joe and another guy just getting things started.  If you are on Facebook, look for Colorado Rocketeers, you will find a great community there as well. We have a lot of clubs here in Colorado and a strong community.

Looking forward to hopefully meeting you in person at a launch sometime!

JamesR

Arvada, CO 

303.548.5531 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/crash-talk/717264A5-6EBC-461B-9D65-150F4F5D522E%40gmail.com.

[James Pancoast]

As for electronics, I'm also fairly new but I've been using stuff from Eggtimer (https://eggtimerrocketry.com/), but I didn't put them together myself, I either bought them already built or there are some folks out there in the world who will build & test them for you.  I worked with a guy called Eric Hamilton (messaged him on FB) and so far everythings been great.

--

James Pancoast

jam...@jpancoast.dev

On Saturday, March 30th, 2024 at 4:18 PM, Denver Racing Sim Ltd. <ra...@denverracingsim.com> wrote:

This is my first time using google groups, did my last response not come through to you all? It shows something was deleted above, not sure if that was my response or not but I don't want you all to think I'm not responding! Thank you for all of your help!

Can we figure out what happened to my original response or learn why it was deleted.

Thank you for the recommendations! I will go to Apogee to pick up a kit. I did watch his videos but wanted some real-world club member's recommendations before jumping on the first wagon I saw. I will take your suggestion and move my way up through the ratings of the rockets if it does in-fact help future builds and understandings of flaws.

Brian, I was wondering what happened on your first two attempts and how you were able to overcome them.

I was also wondering where I can launch a Estes rocket with a small B motor for my daughter around Parker. Is it legal to launch outside of airspace limitations from DIA and Centennial airport down here? Obviously, fire weather is a concern as well.

James, thank you for checking out DRS! Its my passion project to bring racing hobbyists of the sim world and real world together. It has been a ton of fun meeting all these great drivers and improving my own skills. Thank you for your recommendations. I will keep all that in mind. Do you have a recommendation on GPS?

Marthi, thank you for your response and for endorsing the progression through the impulses!

I'm looking forward to kicking off my builds soon!

Sincerely,

Andrew

On Wednesday, March 27, 2024 at 7:31:46 PM UTC-6 marthi...@gmail.com wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/crash-talk/1e787861-42dc-499e-8144-61dd70cdc802n%40googlegroups.com.

[JamesR]

Eric does a great job, that's who I used as well

JamesR

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/crash-talk/Wu-cLs4PAobL0ahzrkDMGtv8TqUNvy0HQnaDEWXeh2-2Lp9nmnhfM-8i0ONy3G9DIu7y98NaOjAmCPz5_M9Kgkv-_3AuRd4iOdo-DRM-guI%3D%40jpancoast.dev.

[brian blueoats.net]

James, Great to hear you are exploring rocketry electronics.  There is a whole lot one can do with adding them.  I would however recommend you just use standard rocket techniques and motor ejection for your L1 rocket and no electronics.  If you start adding in electronics at that point, it can become a bit over whelming as electronics may seem simpler but they actually complicate things and it is important to learn how to make rockets work without them.  Most people get there L1 without electronics and once they have achieved the L1 level they start playing with trackers, dual deployment and such…  It is best to keep things simple at first.

 

Best,

GBA

BHcon

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/crash-talk/CACHaK8uYBP-wUgcht3%2BkYbgBgy-vtNJo0WQoTDx9jqDxVyJy-g%40mail.gmail.com.