Thoughts on Tico Respect

[Sam Wilson]

Joe, Keith, et al,

[Note:  I branched this off as a new thread so others not looking for Pink Floyd tickets can find it! -- Sam ]

Good points all around!  I agree that the Military and its discipline, and (in the US) its Code of Conduct, and all of the good things that come along with that solid structure and training can have great benefits on society.  My dad joined the Navy as soon as he could, right at the end of WWII.  I had a scholarship to the US Naval Academy in Annapolis out of high-school.  I am a big fan of the US Military.  However, 2 points I'd like to add to this discussion...  First, where I live we don't see all the same problems, or at least to the same degree that you see in San José.  We don't have litter on the streets (except for trash pick up day when a dog gets into someone's unprotected trash) and we do have respectful young ones -- over half of them in our little town at least I'd guess.  Men open the doors for women and someone always gives up their seat for an elderly person, on the buses the same as in the bank.

My wife (a Tica, obviously without Military background) raised our 3 oldest kids as a single mother and they all grew up saying, "sí señora, y sí señor."  Our kids are very well educated (well mannered) and respect God, Country and Family.  I'm not sure where she got it, because her father and half of her brothers were (or still are) drunks and would knock an old lady down trying to beat her to a park bench without hesitation or apology.  But from the branch in the family tree we control, everything has been blooming into respectful, well educated Tico citizens.  Counting ourselves, we are shaping the 3rd generation of this right now (nietos.)  So I would argue that having the Military instilled ethics and values are one way, but there are other ways to keep society civil.

My quick 2nd point is that I don't think your Military example applies equally to other Militaries.  The US Military is the cream of the crop.  I regularly hang out with ex-Military from Nicaragua.  They are not by any stretch of the imagination of the same caliber as most ex-Military from the USA.  Some are well educated and thoughtful folks who are are nice and as respectful as can be, but a LOT of them are not very nice people.  Many of them would beat my dead-beat cuñados to the park bench by sticking a knife in their gut and laughing all the way.

I do see a sort of rats in a can, not so nice for society thing happening in San José whenever I am forced to go into the big city.  But out here in the sticks, family values and a stricter upbringing are more common.  We still have too many problems, mind you.  But we have not by any means given up with this struggle.

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Sam

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 7:27:09 PM UTC-6, Keith Flannigan wrote:

It was the values that the Military taught.  Even if you were not in the Miltary just about every family during the draft had someone in the family that was military.  Those ethics and values that the military taught were passed down and around the family.  If a girl grew up and had a father or older brother in the military those values were passed on.  How many times have you read a post where someone said something like "My Father was a Marine so I said yes Sir and Yes Mam. 

Keith Flannigan, PhD, CMAS

www.atabonline.info
703-310-7482

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 6:46 PM, Joe Harrison wrote:

Very interesting points, Keith.  Hopefully this will generate more discussion/controversy/ideas about maybe not just respect here in Ticolandia, but some other topics as well????  I hadn't heard about cooks "modifying" food, por ejemplo😠 and I hadn't drawn a correlation between lack of respect and lack of military.....but, well, both here and in post-draft EEUU there might be a point to be made. But what about females who show disrespect in any of the ways you mentioned?  They never were subject to the US draft.

While "family values" are at the constitutional heart of this society, it is sometimes difficult to see how this achieves the desired results, right?

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 4:57 PM, Keith Flannigan wrote:

There is a total lack of respect toward women and kids.  Very few pay their child support if they even claim the child.  If you look at the trash on the streets you will see that society here has a total disrespect of everything.  The crime rate is growing.  CR is now number 9 on the State Departments countries for murdered American Tourist.  To put that in perspective for you Iraq is number 27.   As stated their is no mutual respect when driving.  I was just told by security at one of the hotels that the cooks put things in the Americans food to make them ill at their hotel.

I recently heard someone say that the problem with Costa Rica is their lack of a military.  The military instills values like honor, responsibility, respect, patriotism and  duty.  All the things that are lacking here and are also lacking in the youth of America since we stopped the draft.

Keith Flannigan, PhD, CMAS

www.atabonline.info
703-310-7482

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 4:16 PM, Joe Harrison wrote:

yeah Sam "Morning Joe" is very familiar -- and a damnsight better than Mourning Joe (not my style).  You raise an interesting subject about:  Tico Respect.  And I wonder what others think of the Tico concept of RESPECT.

To me, it seems to be a multi-colored coat:  I agree completely about Ticos being very reluctant (out of respect) to criticize us for mistakes we make in our attempts to speak español.  Mi novia knows full well that I expect her to correct my multitude of mistakes, or at least the big ones.  She never does, saying she always understands what I mean to say.  And in most ways, Maria is not shy, so I think it is respect, or maybe some form of gratitude that I'm making an effort (relieving her of such a burden in reverse?)

But what about other forms of Tico respect -- or disrespect, as seen from a gringo perspective?  Like DRIVING.  I don't have (and don't want) a car, but  see disrespect all the time, and smatterings of respect, too, as when one driver allows another to, undeservedly, butt into a line or make a u-turn, etc.

Like TALKING.  Some Ticos seem to interrupt conversations at will, or just start talking when the other person is in the middle of a sentence.  On the other hand, out of respect, Ticos always begin by asking "How are you?" , etc.  But maybe they don't say "thank you" at times gringoes might expect such an expression?

and LINES.  Do Ticos respect the lines we all have to wait in?

What thoughts do some of our members have on the subject of Tico respect????   respectfully, joe in pavas

[Kerry Dressler]

I won't comment on Keith's post, except that his experiences differ from mine.  We have lived here 14 years.. my husband retired from a position with the Univ of Costa Rica two years ago.. so, our experiences are not as tourists or in tourists areas, but with a lot of educated Ticos.  However, we live in a small Tico barrio, with Ticos who have all levels of education and prosperity.  Not in an enclave of english speaking foreigners.  We both speak Spanish.

Has anyone taken into account the influence of the Catholic church here?  I live on the far side of Cartago, over Ochomogo from San Jose.  One of the most impressive things I have ever seen is the annual pilgrimage from as far away as Panama and Nicaragua into Cartago to honor La Negrita, the patron saint of Costa Rica.  3 and 4 generations of families walking together some starting out a week before the festivities, walking, with only a small day pack on their backs... over 2 million people in a country with about 5 million.  Homes along the way are open to the pilgrims, couples provide free food from huge pots along the side of the road and safe places to sleep or use facilities.  Schools and public buildings are opened along the routes to allow people a safe place to sleep. The road over Ochomogo is reduced by 1/2 its width so they can walk in safety.  The Policia have checkpoints and Red Cross facilites set up along the various routes of travel.. buses and trains provide free transportation to those needing it.  The pilgrims have problems with delinquents bothering them, also.  It isn't only visiting tourists.  And Americans or other nationalities are welcome to join the walk whether for a kilometer or the entire journey, and many do just that for the experience and comeraderie.

I'm not Catholic or any particular religion, but it brings tears to my eyes to see that many people helping each other.. from babies in carriages to elders in wheel chairs.  I recommend the experience.  This reaches more than just the males of a family that would learn from military service.  It is taught from the cradle.. Respect and perseverence. 

No matter where in the world you visit, wherever there are tourists there are those who prey upon them.. thieves, drug dealers, prostitutes, etc.  I would hate to see this culture reduced to those experiences.  Are there places where food could be contaminated?  Perhaps.  But those are also found everywhere there are tourists that perhaps don't appreciate their hosts... I suspect it is reserved for "ugly" americans (or any other subspecies of tourists) rather than a more general population of tourists.

My white hair garners much more general respect here than it ever has in the US.  Not only by permitting me to go to the head of a line or find a seat on a bus, but generally.  My neighbors, Ticos all, check on me regularly. My husband has Alzheimer's disease.. Whenever he is found outside my gate, he is watched and brought home.  If we are walking to the Botanical Gardens where he worked, less than 600 meters from our front door, people, even a local bus that knows our route will stop to offer a ride.  A local doctor will come to the house if I call, or calls me to see how we are doing.  I can't think of a better place to age than here. 

We were sort of adopted by a young Tico family a number of years ago.  I have only one grown grandchild, so their two children were adopted by us.  The Father never got more than a 6th grade education, but he and his children are all very intelligent and his eldest has a full scholarchip to the Technological ( a highly rated University level school) here in Cartago.  The government grants scholarships from elementary school through University for those students who work and do well.  His other son has another scholarship to 6th grade. 

This family applied for a government grant to bring their home up to a minimum standard.. it was built block by block by the Father as money permitted, but still lacked finishing touches like ceilings, a proper kitchen, etc.  After mounds of paperwork, he was granted 6 million colones (a little less than $12,000) to finish his home.  But then the authorities noticed he had an electronic/computer taller (workshop) in the home and he was told he would have to take it out of the home... work offices were not part of the grant.  I had a large covered patio in the front of my house, so I offered him space that he could block off part with a temporary wall and he could move his taller there.  That was 3 years ago.  He is at his taller (my home) 6 days a week, working and helping us out. 

Now he also helps the occasional Gringo who is lost in the beaurocracy here (Migracion, making calls to ICE, the CAJA, dealing with Municipalidades and paperwork).  As he never took the exam (bachillerato) because he never finished his education, he can't really get a good job and lives from paycheck to paycheck.  When my husband had to retire due to his advancing Alzheimer's, he took us to all the proper offices and made certain Bob got all the various savings accounts that the University had in his name.  I've lost count of the number of trips we made to the MEP retirement offices.  I'm trying to get him into a position where he can do all these things and make money to supliment his repair work, because not many people can afford to get things repaired and the money is not enough to support his family.  Where we live, he has helped (and been paid) by perhaps 20 -30 foreigners for assistence with all their problems with language and the government. 

During this time I was diagnosed with an agressive form of hereditary normal pressure Glaucoma.  I had been a photographer for 35 years but now can't see to focus an auto-focus camera, or drive further than the very local Palí.  Miguel does all my driving into the city or just to take my husband out for a drive.  He cares for our very small Orchard/garden, and generally makes our lives much easier here.  I have a co-caregiver always available.  I can't pay him a fraction of his worth, but he now has his home finished, a place to work from and occasional help like when marchamos come around.  We started off taking him to Price and him purchasing the basic food items for a month.. more or less $100/month.  Now he gets the same items, rice, beans, etc... but the price has gone up to about $200/month.  Inflation hits the average Tico much harder than the average Gringo.  I couldn't afford a fraction of the help he gives us in the US, and that does not include being part of a family unit, not just a job. 

There are definitely two Costa Ricas... the tourist/visitor one, and the one we live in.  I have a great deal of respect and love for the one I live in.

[Keith Flannigan]

Kerry

I enjoyed reading your heartfelt letter.  I don't want you to misunderstand, I love living here in Costa Rica.  I have been here 17 years next month.  There are many very wonderful and kind people here in Costa Rica and with any country, you can't put everyone into a single category.  I raised my children here and they loved it and are now back in the states attending University.  I want to apologize if anyone got the idea that I was putting down the entire country. 

My comments were only on the original post question about respect in Costa Rica.  I will say that my eyes are a bit tainted.  I have spent my adult life in the security and counter-terror business from Russia, Europe, Colombia, and Peru so I see things and always look at situations in the percentages of probability for something to go wrong.  I have a humanitarian foundation that provides healthcare to children.  We have dental clinics and gynecologist in motorhomes that provide well-visits to pregnant teen girls in the villages and mountains of Peru and Colombia.  We are in the process of opening a "Women's Center" in Costa Rica (as soon as the paperwork is approved) that will provide 3 healthy meals a day and job training for pregnant teen girls so they can provide for their baby when it is born.  Due to my life experience the two things that I experience and recognize most are criminals and abusers of women and children.  So I do get a bit jaded from time to time.

While in my professional life I have to deal with many things that I wish I did not have to see and it would be earsier to avoid but I actaully receive a lot of emotional benefit from helping these people.  There is nothing like the feeling of handing a mother back her baby that had been kidnapped of handing an old woman a bag of money with her life saving that had been stolen or seeing a child being able to run like the other kids.

In short Kerry I was not trying to put down the Costa Rica that we all love.  I wish you well and will keep you and your husband in my thoughts and prayers.  I have cared for family with alzhiemers and I know how difficult that can be at times.

Keith

Keith Flannigan, PhD, CMAS

www.atabonline.info
703-310-7482

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[Berni J]

Yes Kerry thanks for the story!

But Senor Keith, your assumptions about respect being only bred into military personnel has a gaping hole in it . . . one study sez 7.3 per cent of living Norte Americanos have served in the military.  To some observers on face value your logic implies over 92 per cent of N Americans might be thuggish bores who are abusive to the opposite sex.

I really do not think the state of militarism and human decency have any connection at all.  

It is fairly clear that the development of social mores is connected to all kinds of things.  

A small tale.  On our street we have everyone you can think of from super nice (close to sainthood) to thugs who, when I first got here, I'd be pleased to dispatch to the blue beyond.  In 15 years on my street I have changed and so has the street.  The saints are still saintly and the thugs have seemingly morphed but perhaps not.  Some died due to bad habits and no respect (one ran his bike into a bridge, one drank himself to death, one hung himself etc etc).  The head thug (most charismatic etc) got a girl pregnant, built her a house in her moms front yard, got a good job, bought a car and is now a pillar of respect in the area as the "bravest of all the boys of past years".  

I remember our second year semana santa riot (an annual and very vigorous event on our street) when my wife had to walk out on a street covered in debris into a melee of about 50 kids doing mayhem watched on by their parents and ask the head thug if he'd mind moving the riot up the street a bit.

He did.  And so it began.

With the help of riot police (at its peak on one semana santa about 60 of them had to come to the rescue), a carefully placed "eye in the sky" camera, a local priest, the director of our local school, road improvements and the un-wedded bliss of our head (oh so charismatic) thug, the social mores on our street have indeed morphed.

A woman lay dying a couple of weeks back - at an age before her time.  Diabetes and complications had taken their toll.  She was not a bad woman but had spawned a very troubled child who had been verbally and physically hostile to us for reasons we will never ask.  As mom lay dying, she leaned over to her daughter and told her to promise never again to do what she had done as "you need to do no harm" to them (us) as we had never done anything wrong to them and "you never know when you might need something".   According to a neighbor/witness the errant daughter agreed.  Her mum died shortly after.

We fureigners won't change much directly in the overall society but I am guessing something more saintly is being born in the village for something we did not do.

Berni

[Joe Harrison]

There are so many elements in Kerry's fantastic post about respect, that I couldn't possibly do justice to commenting on all of them.  To take just a few:  perhaps Kerry recalls that I, too, have (prematurely) white hair, although much less in quantity than she does!!  And, for sure, that brings instant respect in this society, whether it's deserved or not.  Especially on buses and in bank lines.  Amazingly, on a crowded bus, it's the ladies who offer -- sometimes insist -- their seat to me, while much less so lazy men, and only rarely do teenagers think about bestirring themselves.  This goes against my cultural sensitivities, and often I decline, but give sort of a scowl at a caballero sitting idly by, which is simply ignored of course.  And the teens are hopeless.

But I agree with Kerry's point about many families in CR teaching their kids the principles of respect "from the cradle."  In the family I've adopted, mi novia's kids are constantly reminded to show respect.  And they do.  They understand, and even though this is a poor family, they will do well and I think they will succeed in school due to their upbringing.  It all starts at home.

I am Catholic (although I've never done La Negrita pilgrimage) and, while I served somewhat briefly in the military, it was in my upbringing and in my university education (Notre Dame) that I developed the discipline that leads to respect.  In my college days, ND was only male, and was run much like a military academy, or at least that's how we viewed the place.  We learned quickly about respect -- for God, country, and Notre Dame, and all that went with those values.  There were few social diversions, and lots of clergy.  To me, the respect I developed in those formative days was because I WANTED to develop it.  When, later, I served in the Army (not having bone spurs) the respect I displayed was because I was REQUIRED to do it.  

And these days, in both the US and CR, whatever respect the younger generation learns to display comes from the family values it learns at an early age.  That's scary.

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 2:59 AM, Kerry Dressler <ke...@bio-photo.com> wrote:

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