Is it possible for the owner of a car here in CR to sell that car while in the US

[Keith Flannigan]

Do you know if the owner of a car and go to the CR Embassy in the US and sign the papers to sell a car here in the CR?

I have a friend in the States that owns an Antique Collectable car here in the CR.  He has medical problems and can't travel and wants to sell his car.

Has anyone ever done this.

Keith Flannigan, PhD, CMAS

www.atabonline.info
703-310-7482

[Ron Ristad]

I've bought properties in Costa Rica from people who were in the U.S. and it required a power of attorney for somebody here in Costa Rica.  The last one I bought this last year a CR lawyer had to fly to the U.S. and meet with the seller and come back here to close the deal. Escrow companies can perform this service but it's not cheap. I recommend either using an unscrupulous lawyer, or finding somebody to impersonate the seller.  All a lawyer cares about is a DIMEX or passport that they can see. They might even accept a copy. It's not as if you are committing fraud. I know people who have done this when a person died. I bought a pick up truck this way when the owner was arrested and sent to prison in the U.S. for tax fraud.

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[Keith Flannigan]

Thanks Ron

Keith Flannigan, PhD, CMAS

www.atabonline.info
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[Sam Wilson]

Hi Keith,

Yes, I think that can be done kind of like that.  Someone in the states can go to a CR Embassy or Consulate and have a Poder Especial (or any type for that matter) drawn up and notarized by the CR Consul who serves as an acting Notary under CR law.  As I'm sure you already know, a Poder Especial is just a Special Power of Attorney used to grant an agent authority to carry out specific acts like buying or selling a vehicle.  The limitations of the Poder are specific so everything you need the agent to do must be clearly spelled out.  Normally one would work with a trusted CR attorney to prepare the docs and then when everything is ready, go to the CR Embassy or Consulate to sign the docs and have them notarized, the docs would then be sent back to the CR attorney who would handle the transaction as described in the Poder Especial.  This could also be done with a Poder General or the more expansive Poder Generalísimo if you need the VERY trusted attorney to do other things.  However, as you get more expansive in the power you are granting, you can easily grant enough power to an attorney to sell the car and keep the money or give the car to his girlfriend, etc.  I do not think there would be any legal recourse if someone to whom you grant expansive powers decides to screw you.  Morally they might rot in Hell, but legally they are within their rights to do whatever the Poder allows (which could be any and everything or it could be very limited.)

I have personally known several CR attorneys who have stolen from clients.  Most paid chorizo to get out of trouble when they got caught so they now have a clean slate and one is still on the lam in Nicaragua.  TRUSTED is the very key word here.

--

Sam

[Keith Flannigan]

Thanks Sam

That is very helpful.

Keith Flannigan, PhD, CMAS

www.atabonline.info
703-310-7482

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[Don Hickman]

I agree with Sam.  I just went through this a couple of months ago for a friend here who, for medical reasons, had to suddenly leave for the States.  He's 87 and he isn't able to come back here so he asked me to sell his house and cars for him.

I had an attorney here draft a power of attorney giving me the authority to sell those items.  I then sent that to the Consul General at the Costa Rican consulate in Los Angeles (nearest consulate to my friend's location).  The Consul added some blather, my friend appeared before the Consul and signed.  The Consul signed.  Stamps, ribbons and wax were added.  (Well, maybe not the wax)

Once I received it here, I had to send it to Casa Amarilla in San Jose for it to be "authenticated.". (Casa Amarilla has to certify that the Consul is the Consul.) Once I got it back i was able to proceed to sell the house and cars.  Whew!

But you have to be certain that you can trust whomever you give the power of attorney to.  After selling the house ($400K) and the cars ($20 K) I legally could have kept the money.

Don

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[Don Hickman]

I forgot to mention that the Consul charged $600 for her signature.  😱

Don

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 7:22 PM Sam Wilson <sliw...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Ron Ristad]

My experience with lawyers and with the government in Costa Rica has been that it can be like stepping into a giant spider web. Contracts mean nothing, a man's word means nothing. The laws are constantly changing and arbitrarily enforced. Which is why I have as little to do with lawyers and government as possible.

In the U.S. in order to sell a car all that is required is for the seller to sign the title, - or the pink slip in California. It doesn't even need to be notarized. Why should it need to be anymore complicated than that?

My wife is a Tica and she doesn't trust anybody. I try to tell her that most people are honest. But it's true that many people here simply have no morals. I guess it's not something Ticos teach their children. That's why if I have even the slightest doubt about something then I don't do it. Agreements and signed contracts have no value here. That's probably true everywhere, just more so here because the people are not afraid of the police. Which is fine with me. Just takes getting used to.

[don Jhon]

I had a weird deal in buying a car in Florida.  It required transferring a car from my sister-in-law.  The car was owned by a leasing company and 

I was about the only one driving for over a year because she was terminal.  She wanted to leave a clean slate behind so she paid off the lease and sold 

it to me in that amount.  But she could not drive and was in Alabama at her son's house but the car was tagged and registered in Florida where I lived.

So as soon as she received the title she sent it to me  with a POA and I transferred it to her name but though I was the buyer I could not then transfer it to me with 

the same POA.  At first I thought I needed another POA for my wife who could then transfer it to me for her sister.  But wait, the Tag office said I could give my wife a

POA to represent me in the transaction and I would represent her sister. Whoa, I thought it strange but that is what we did.  It only took a few minutes for me to sell

the car to myself using wife as a bridge over a legal quirk. Normally I question this but this was the authority telling this is how to do it.

[Sam Wilson]

Hi Ron,

> Contracts mean nothing, a man's word means nothing. The laws are constantly changing and arbitrarily enforced.

To the contrary, I have found that contracts are actually quite binding here.  Once I was renting a bar here from a horrible bitch and after I elevated it from being a dead place to a lively place, the best bar in town by far, she tried to take the bar back from me.  We went to court over it and I won.  I not only stayed in the bar to the end of the contract, I took advantage of the law and stayed for 2 more years because of the 3-years clause.  She was so pissed that I could hear her hissing through her pointy teeth from 100 meters away.  You've lived in other places before, I'm sure of it.  Give me one example of a country where laws are NOT arbitrarily enforced.  That is a type of social grease that helps the world move on down the tracks.  Many laws have wiggle room and judges are there to interpret them because things are not always so cut and dried.  If laws were exact and precisely enforced, why would we need judges to interpret them.  Law enforcement would be a simple fill in the blank form.  Do the crime, do the time, etc. No disrespect to an esteemed forum member who used to be a judge...  jejeje.

> My wife is a Tica and she doesn't trust anybody.

Please remind me again why you said your "Tica" wife still had to take the Spanish test for her citizenship when we were discussing requirements?

> But it's true that many people here simply have no morals. I guess it's not something Ticos teach their children.

Sometimes I wonder if we are living in the same country.  Sure there are some bums and thugs and rotten people in Costa Rica, but the vast majority I have come in contact with ARE honest, humble, hard-working, friendly AND moral people.  I've got 4 Tica girls in my immediate family and 5 more Tico kids who practically live in my household and more extended Tico family than you can shake an Arnis stick at.  On top of that we have real Tico friends.  I am not aware of a single Tico family that does not try very hard to teach their kids morals -- okay, I take that back... I do know of one.  But that is the exception and except for their one nice gay boy who likes big fonts and is nice and caring, the rest of their girls have grown into haughty selfish young adults now who we loath to associate with.  Go to church some day and look around.  Ours has a waiting list to get inside these days.

Sammy Davis jr. - Baretta's theme

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HNWhVXcjV8

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Sam

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[Don Hickman]

Don Jhon, the "legal quirk" to which you refer is that the holder of a power of attorney can't self-deal.  In other words, you can't sell someone's car to yourself using that person's POA.

Don

who is working on getting over being disrespected.  🤣

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[Ron Ristad]

Hi Sam,

Your example illustrates my point.

"I not only stayed in the bar to the end of the contract, I took advantage of the law and stayed for 2 more years". In other words you signed a contract but then took advantage of a loophole in the law. Your word meant nothing. This is why contracts and agreements mean nothing here.

As for why Ticos lack morals, I have observed so many Tico children that are spoiled brats. I suspect this is why Latinos become socialists. They never learn how to take care of themselves and are totally irresponsible. When Tico men get married their wife takes over for their mother, and when they get divorced they move back in with their mother.  Tica women are as sexually promiscuous as men and have babies with no thought of how they are going to take care of them.

I have also observed that almost all Ticos are cowards. This why you see them line up and fight to get vaccinated. People are cowards because they have no faith in God and are afraid of death. A spiritual person believes in God's law and a spiritual person fears nothing, not even death.

Again, I am not referring to all Ticos, but a great many.  Traits such as honesty and bravery are not esteemed in the Tico culture. One explanation for this is that in places that have harsher climates a person who is not honest or cannot be trusted, never shows up on time and is a coward is likely to starve or freeze to death.

To answer your question my wife was brought here when she was two years old and has lived here ever since which is why I refer to her as a Tica, although most Ticos refer to her as Russian. Not sure if that is because her skin is so white or because she can kick most men's asses.

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[Sam Wilson]

Hi Ron,

> Your example illustrates my point.

>

> "I not only stayed in the bar to the end of the contract, I took advantage of the law and stayed for 2 more years".

> In other words you signed a contract but then took advantage of a loophole in the law. Your word meant nothing.

> This is why contracts and agreements mean nothing here.

>

To the contrary, Ron.  I've got rental property here in Costa Rica and have studied the law about rental contracts a good bit in the past.  The 1 year contract was an out for me as a renter of the bar, not an out for the horrible witch from whom I rented.  That law about a renter staying up to 3 years if they wish is not a loophole, it is clear law.  I knew about it before renting the bar and the stupid witch from whom I rented either did and assumed I didn't or she did not.  Either way I knew I would win before we went to court over it.  I never said I would only stay 1 year and if I was planning to do that then I would have had to notify her in advance of that in writing because otherwise the rental contract would automatically renew for another year.  Please read up on things before making wild assumptions.  I'm pretty solid on my word, but I can be very particular about my wording.  Details matter to me.

And thank you for the reminder...  Including that horrible woman's family, I know of 2 Tico families who obviously did not spend enough time teaching their kids to be nice people.  Sadly, they both have continued to procreate and I fear that trend will continue to expand with their spawn.

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[Ron Ristad]

So you knowingly signed a contract that you knew was not valid. You lied
and cheated and got away with it because it was "legal", according to
the government. What about God's opinion? That's the only one I care about.

[Keith Flannigan]

Wow it never bureaucracy seems to know no bounds.

Keith Flannigan, PhD, CMAS

www.atabonline.info
703-310-7482

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[Joe Harrison]

Don:  Is she what is known in diplomatic circles as an "Honorary" Consul?  I don't know how she could get away with that kind of robbery ($600) if she is a bonafide government employee!  (But, then again, this is Costa Rica.)

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[Don Hickman]

Joe,  Yes, she's a bonafide government employee.  An honorary consul can't notarize a POA.  They have very limited powers.  There was an honorary consul in the city where my friend lives and I called her but she said I had to use a real consul.

Don

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[Sam Wilson]

Oh, Ron...

This holier than thou coming from someone who earlier in this very thread recommended:

"I recommend either using an unscrupulous lawyer, or finding somebody to impersonate the seller.  All a lawyer cares about is a DIMEX or passport that they can see. They might even accept a copy. It's not as if you are committing fraud."

Of course that would very much be committing fraud.  Check with God or any legal scholar about that, I'm sure the answer would be the same.

Sometimes I wonder if you even live in Costa Rica at all.  If so, have you ever dealt with contracts in Costa Rica?  Do you have any idea about Costa Rican rental contracts and how they work?  I don't think so...

A - the contract was valid.

B - I did not lie or cheat

C - it WAS legal because that is how Costa Rica rental contracts work (with a few specific exceptions)

I would love to stay and play, but I really do have work to do, so if you want to be more informed about these topics, I'll have to oblige you later... don't fret about lack of timely response.

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Sam

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[Joe Harrison]

Gotta wonder how much of that $600 found its way into the CR Treasury....

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[Ron Ristad]

In order to be fraud something must be stolen. As long as the seller is getting paid, it might not be legal but there is nothing wrong with it under God's laws.

If you signed a contact (i.e., gave your word) that said it was only for one year and then did not honor it then I'm sorry but in the eyes of God you are a liar and a cheat.

But that is just my opinion. Only God is allowed to judge people.

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[Don Hickman]

Situational ethics, I suppose.  Lol.

Don

On 10/12/2021 12:01 PM, Sam Wilson wrote:

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[Dorothy Diana]

“I have also observed that almost all Ticos are cowards. This why you see them line up and fight to get vaccinated. People are cowards because they have no faith in God and are afraid of death. A spiritual person believes in God's law and a spiritual person fears nothing, not even death.”

Hear hear!!!
❤️
Dorothy Diana

[Ron Ristad]

All I know is that living in fear is no way to live, that the only
people I know who not afraid of death are spiritual people, and that
once a person no longer fears death then they cannot be easily intimidated.

From owning a martial arts gym in Costa Rica I know that most Ticos are
afraid of violence and avoid it at all cost, even when it's for sport.
Maybe that's a good thing.  It's just that it's extremely frustrating
when you train somebody for years only to have them freeze up when they
are confronted with a real danger, too afraid to even run which is the
very first thing I teach my students.

Fear is a killer. FDR meant it when he said "the only thing we have to
fear is fear itself".

[Sam Wilson]

Hi Ron,

Isn't it ironic that 80+ years before FDR's inaugural address where he said, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself," that Henry David Thoreau wrote those words referring to a book about atheism?  He was referring to the 1848 book, Eastern Life, in which Harriet Martineau wrote about the end-goal of society being a form of philosophic atheism:

Miss Martineau’s last book is not so bad as the timidity which fears its influence. As if the popularity of this or that book would be so fatal – & man would not still be man in the world. Nothing is so much to be feared as fear – Atheism may be popular with God himself.

~~~ Henry David Thoreau, 1851

Is Atheism a form of being spiritual?  Hmmm... I've never considered that, but maybe.

Of course, unreasonably trembling in the dark is not a healthy way to live, but fearing death can be a very good thing.  Last night, I would argue that fear of death is what prodded me into action to trap and kill a terciopelo in my sala.  If it had been a bécquer I would have either carried it to a safer location on our farm or perhaps given it to our little girl as a pet.  I don't think I was unreasonable about it (although dear henry might disagree) as I did not let that fear control me, but it did affect my actions as I mentioned earlier where my immediate reaction was to look for a long-handled weapon rather than using a more convenient paring knife from our kitchen.

Fear can be a good thing, and I'd bet plenty of money that you do indeed fear death.

A wise man fears and turns from evil, but a fool is careless and reckless.  ~~ Proverbs 14:16 [BSB] 

But, seriously... whether you do or don't doesn't affect me one bit unless your lack of fear leads you to strap on a bomb and come blow up Guanacatecos.  When bad-mouthing Ticos for cowardness, please remember this Tico who died in the service of the US Army in Afghanistan, Army Staff Sgt. Andrew T. Britton-Mihalo, a 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne) soldier whose father stops by my place from time to time to drink rum and reminisce.  He had balls the size of Texas and walked into a meeting with local warlords unarmed as a show of good faith.

I leave you with this wise warrior saying: not kohpuzzez neh gijluz. 

--

Sam

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[Joe Harrison]

It's fascinating to muse about how we wandered from how to sell a car in CR from abroad to the theories of Thoreau about atheism and fear.  But here we are.  To me, Ticos are not cowards, but they simply disdain violence.  What's wrong with that?  Here we have a social order that has specifically rejected the idea of having armed forces, so we can logically call it a pacifist society.  I am neither an atheist nor a pacifist, but I respect those whose belief systems embrace those ideas.  

Returning to the subject of cars, all societies must have rules, and for that reason the idea of government exists in all societies.  Some years ago, most societies determined that public safety required the use of seatbelts in vehicles, and also periodic safety inspections;  speed limits;  licensing regulations; headlights;  many other limitations that some might say infringe on individual rights.  So be it.  It was deemed to be in the public interest by almost all societies, acting through their governments.

We face now, a similar situation with Covid 19.  Obviously, some do not accept the public necessity of collective action, but to me the idea of prudence enters the equation:  Just as it was prudent to require seatbelts, it seems prudent and in the public interest to ask our citizens, when interacting with each other, to take the precautions recommended by those most knowledgeable of the situation.  It isn't fear or cowardice that drives Ticos or others to get vaccinated.  It's common sense, prudence, and respect for their fellow citizens.  Just as you are not a coward if you use a seatbelt, you are not a coward if you add a Covid vaxx to the other vaccinations that you already have.  Spirituality does not exclude prudence.  In fact, I think it demands it.

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[fredspot]

A brilliant discourse, Joe.  I don't agree with the vaxx conclusion of yours, as an anti-vaxxer, even though I reluctantly took both jabs.  I believe personal medical choices and medical privacy are paramount.

But on the point of prudence, I agree wholeheartedly.  That's why I agreed to take the jabs.  My family, the medical professionals of them, pointed out that those in the ICUs and those dying of COVID during the last months of resurgence in the US were the unvaccinated.   Even though I had contracted COVID in early '21 (recovered quickly and nicely, btw) and now have natural immunity, I decided it was prudent to add a layer of protection against the disease, and especially the variants sure to occur.

I don't believe in the efficacy of mask-wearing, but I wear them to be prudent and considerant.  Prudent because it's a govt. mandate, considerate because it may (?) protect others ("may" because I believe I have natural and enhanced immunity and thus cannot transmit what I don't have).

My belief is that this too shall pass and we can return to normalcy until the next plague strikes us.  It will happen.

Thanks again for your thoughtful piece, Joe.

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device

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[Ron Ristad]

Sam,

Fear is an emotion that serves an evolutionary purpose by protecting the young. As children we fear the dark and the Bogey Man under the bed. But once we have matured and have experience fear becomes highly counter productive.

I said that people who are spiritual do not fear death. There are many ways to overcome the fear of death and a spiritual path is only one of them.

Fear is an emotion. We learn to control our emotions by facing them. The reason why most people are afraid of death is because they chose to not think of it.

The reason why most Ticos are cowards is due to the culture. Tico children are raised by their mothers and they are sheltered and protected to a degree that's unbelievable. Parents routinely file demandas with the police  against other children who are bullying their children - on Facebook!

Bravery is defined as acting in spite of fear.  Cowardice is being controlled by fear. I suppose that the reason why most Ticos are cowards is because most have lived sheltered lives and have never been forced to face their fears like the Tico soldier that you mentioned. Hell, the average American these days will do just about anything in order to avoid having to do anything that makes them in the least bit uncomfortable.

I do not fear death because I accept it as part of life. Everything that lives dies.  It helps that I have lived as long as I have and have experienced all the wonderful things I have. I believe this good fotune is the result of following the teachings of Jesus Christ and obeying God's laws, including putting God's laws in front of laws made be governments.

In any event I have accepted the fact that I am going to die, if not today then tomorrow.  Nothing I can do to change that.  Until then I am doing my best to enjoy life more than ever - while I still can.