Ziyarat E Ashura

[Kanisha Marchant]

Forexample in many ziyarat groups there are old people. Sometimes the leader of the group and the whole group will sit so that the old people dont feel old and the weaker ones do not become agitated on account of having to stand (e.g. kids).

As to the parts of ziyarat Ashura, they are not wajib as the ziyarat itself is not wajib so you can say the parts as many times as you want. However the more of a good act you do the better. Usually i recite the parts once.

It is certainly recommended to recite them 100 times each. However, people often say "Allahuma il3an aba sufyan wa mu3awia......(to the end) miet mara" so you would recite the phrase and right after it you say "one-hundred times." Either way, you will still be getting ajir inshallah=]

You can recite the part "Alhummal anhum Jameaan" for the tabarra part and "Asalamo al Husayn wala Ali ibn al Husayn....." for the tawalla part 100 times instead of reciting the whole paragraph 100 times.

He basically says that there is no doubt that it is recommended to recite Ziyarat Ashura, because there are many authentic hadiths of the Aimmah (as) talking about it; the question is, is the "Ziyarat Ashura" that they were talking about the same one that we have in our hands today?

1) It's content; he says that this Ziyarat isn't really how the Aimmah (as) talked. They didn't curse too much so it's strange that they would teach us something that cursed someone every other sentence.

He goes much more into details in his answer, which I've attached. I would appreciate it if eveyone read it and told me what they think; I think he makes a convincing argument, but I would like to hear different opinions.

Imam Ali (as) said I hate for you to be among the cursers and if Imam Ali (as) says that that means all our imam would say the same thing including the prophet since they all had the same train of thought.

Also what Ammar is saying is not curse them but rather what lanat means is for Allah to withdraw his mercy from them. Theirs a huge diffrence. He also says to point out their faults which is diffrent then cursing.

'Ali ibn Ibrahim al-Qummi from his father from Hanaan ibn Sadeer, and Muhammad ibn Yahya from Ahmed ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Isma'il from Hanaan ibn Sadeer, from Sadeer who said: I asked Abu Ja'far (a.s.) regarding the two. Abu Ja'far (a.s.) said: "Ya Abu al-Fadhl! Do not ask me about those two! I swear by Allah that no one from among us dies except with anger for both of them. There is no one from us today except that they are angry at both of them. The old from among us informs the young about that! These two oppressed us and prevented us from taking our rights. They were the first to ride on our necks! They opened up a door of oppression against us in Islam which will never close until our Qa'em rises or our speaker speaks." Abu Ja'far (a.s.) then said: "He will expose matters concerning them that have been hidden and he shall hide matters concerning them which have been brought up (falsely). I swear by Allah that no affliction or trouble has been caused against Ahlul'bayt (a.s.) except that they are the roots causes of these. Thus, may the curse of Allah, his Angels, and all of Mankind be upon them both."

[same chain as before] from Hanaan from his father who said: "I said to Abu Ja'far (a.s.): "Were the sons of Ya'qub (a.s.) prophets?" He said: "No, but they were sons of prophets and they did not leave this world until they were satisifed and repentful and remembered what they did. And surely the Sheikhain did not leave this world after caring about what they did to Ameer al-Mu'mineen (a.s.). Thus, may the curse of Allah, his Angels, and all of Mankind be upon them both."

Wow! This thread is ridiculous. He believes that this Ziyarat we have has parts which are unauthentic. Period. You are twisting his words around to make him innocent of this! What he is doing is rejecting the matn of this Ziyarat by what his heart feels. There is no scientific methodology in this whatsoever. This is a disgrace to Husain (a.s.).

Well, my question still stands and please dont send me to the marjas themselves - which conditions of being elligible to lead prayers does denying ziyarat ashura break? There are only a few simple ones.

ill agree on one point that the extra 100 curses may have been added...but to say that ziyarat ashura is not authentic because of the curses and that the imams would never do that is a horrible reason. There are duas with 100 times worse the curses and they are authentic. Cursing is not haram if you know that person is going to hell for killing our imams...

However, I noticed that everyone is harping on Fadhallah(rh)'s opinion of the cursing (which is accurate. even in the hadiths mansab posted, the Imams just have 1 line of cursing, not every other sentence) but would anyone care to talk about his examination of the chain?

Those have been refuted so many times, it's unbelievable. It's just like when wahabis quote from Al Kafi to "prove" the Shia believe Imam Mahdi "is hiding in a cave" or the Shia believe in a hidden Quran, etc etc

Most of those are either mistranslations, or taken out of context, or don't even exist; it's like when idiots quote from a book of Khomeini's (ra) that doesn't even exist to "prove" that he believes that you can have sex with babies or animals (astagfirallah!)

WOW! You can't be serious. al-Khoe'i (r.a.) authenticated a chain from him, Majlisi (r.a.) accepted his narrations, Berujerdi (r.a.) said Thiqa, Tusi (r.a.) said Thiqa, also Shabastari (r.a.)! There is absolutely NO weakeness in Hanaan. You can use one or two things to try to prove him weak, but you will fail because he is not Majhool, in fact he has been given explicit tawtheeq by some great scholars of Rijal. Kashi (r.a) and Najashi (r.a.) are greater than you in Rijal - they said he is Mamduh. Your only goal in studying Rijal is to weaken every narrator in the traditions which expose your beloved Sheikhein - you've been doing this all throughout your time here. Inshallah, may the lovers of Husain (a.s.) follow the scholars and not random guys like you.

Are you serious with this? You cannot show any weakness about Sadeer. You present only voids of evidence, not actual disparagement. In fact, al-Khoe'i (r.a.) does not use the TAFSEER BOOK that we have today of al-Qummi (r.a.). Yes, that would be bad. But Alhamdulillah he does not.

You guys are the same ones who will say that Abu Bak'r and 'Umar were not Kuffaar but rather that they were deviants. What a joke! I don't see how you can look into the face of Bibi Fatima (a.s.) on Yawm al-Qiyama. Good luck to you.

mansab , how about you start being reasonable as to what others are saying. clearly our imams dont need to curse, and this is what makes our version of ziyarat not a very credible source. SCIENTIFCALLY SPEAKING, you cursing will most likely deter people from islam.

Bring me one hadith of all the hadith that exist wherethe prophet cursed anybody and if the prophet didnt curse anybody then surly non of the Imams AS did . What about the Hadith when Imam Ali (as) said I hate for you to be cursers can any body deny that hadith plus all the maraja belive in it.

Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too). [2: 159]

(3) The stuff I will share below is something that is almost never shared by scholar and speakers from the pulpit, but people have a right to know, and they should know that these kinds of researches exist.

(4) The first common myth that scholars spread about this Ziyaarah is that there is no need to question its authenticity because this Ziyaarah is accepted by all our Maraje and great scholars of llme Rijaal.

He also highlighted the fact that the last two sections of the Ziyaarah (which contain the malediction that is to be repeated 100 times) are manifest interpolations/additions to the original text, as can also be seen from the testimony of Sayyid Ibn Tawoos who has an original manuscript with the original text of the Ziyaarah in his possession.

(6) This book obviously stirred a lot of controversy, but its findings were fully approved and endorsed by Ayatullah Sayyid Mohammad Husain Fadhlallah, who made it clear that the research presented in it was unassailable, and no scholar has been able to refute this research. Those who are proficient in Arabic can read this book and judge for themselves, as it can be downloaded from the following link:

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