Re: [SBoC-F] Mindstream or Citta-Santana
Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
<rlpvimal@yahoo.co.in>Dear Cathy and Bob,
Both of you have an interesting discuss. Please review Section
5 (pages 19-22) of the attached write-up, which is also given below for your convenience:
5. Mathematics and Consciousness: Reframing the Reason–Boyer Dialogue via DPV~ICRDAM and Citta-Santāna
From Symbol to Silence: Reframing Mathematics as Trans-Intellectual Consciousness via DPV~ICRDAM and Citta-Santāna
Mathematics, Consciousness, and the Continuum: A DPV~ICRDAM Synthesis of the Reason–Boyer Dialogue
5.1. Abstract
This article explores the ontological and phenomenological status of mathematics through the integrated metaphysical-scientific framework of Dvi-Pakṣādvaita Vedānta ~ Inseparable-Complementary-Reflective Dual-Aspect Monism (DPV~ICRDAM), supplemented by the Citta-Santāna (mindstream) doctrine as reinterpreted in contemporary manifold topology. Taking as a point of departure the recent dialogue between Cathy Reason and Robert Boyer, we investigate the proposition that mathematics is not an intellectual construct reducible to symbolic language or formal systems, but a non-local, trans-intellectual mode of consciousness—akin to turiya, the fourth state of pure awareness in Vedāntic tradition. Boyer’s reflections on mathematics as a potential expression of transcendental consciousness and Reason’s assertion of its intuitive, non-conceptual nature are here analyzed within a dual-aspect ontology, where every experience consists of an inseparable subjective and non-subjective aspect (DAS). Drawing on both bottom-up and top-down emergence models, we argue that mathematics—like all conscious experience—arises not from discrete cognitive events but from a continuous conscious manifold within the Dual-Aspect Psychophysical Universe (DA_PPU), ultimately grounded in the neutral, unmanifest source (NB ~ preBB_QVF). This synthesis resolves classical tensions between momentary and continuous models of mind (including those highlighted by Cantor’s proof), and reframes mathematics as a lived reflection of the non-dual cosmic field. The result is a unified, cross-disciplinary ontology that transcends conventional boundaries between science, mathematics, and contemplative philosophy—offering fresh insight into the nature of consciousness, liberation, and the epistemic status of abstract forms.
5.2. Introduction
A striking convergence between non-intellectual mathematical insight and transconceptual consciousness emerged in a recent exchange between Cathy Reason and Robert Boyer on the Scientific Basis of Consciousness (SBoC) forum. Their dialogue provides a timely opportunity to clarify and contextualize mathematics as a lived, subjective phenomenon—rather than merely a formal or symbolic language—by applying the integrated framework of Dvi-Pakṣādvaita Vedānta ~ Inseparable-Complementary-Reflective Dual-Aspect Monism (DPV~ICRDAM), further enriched by the Citta-Santāna model of continuous consciousness.
Cathy Reason challenges the prevailing notion that mathematics is fundamentally an intellectual endeavor. She argues that while formal languages may serve to represent mathematical ideas, mathematics itself is not reducible to such linguistic structures. Rather, it manifests as a lived, intuitive experience—something that evokes a powerful sense of non-local awareness, wherein one perceives themselves to be simultaneously present across multiple loci of experience. In this framing, mathematics is not an operation of the discriminative intellect, but an immediate, non-conceptual mode of being. It is mathematical in nature, yet not processed by the intellect—a paradox resolved only by viewing mathematics as an emergent field of direct conscious experience.
Robert Boyer affirms Cathy’s departure from the intellectual framing of mathematics and connects her description to transcendent states of awareness known in meditative traditions. He recalls his earlier observation that concepts, language, and even mathematical reasoning constitute the domain of intellect, which is ultimately transcended in deeper layers of consciousness. Responding to Cathy’s reconceptualization, Boyer asks whether she is equating mathematics with a condition of unbounded inner stillness—akin to turiya, the "fourth state" of consciousness beyond waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. This state, also referred to as pure or transcendental consciousness, is typified by the absence of mental activity and is associated with distinct neurophysiological correlates in meditative research. He further probes whether Cathy sees mathematics as such a state of consciousness—one that originates beneath or beyond the level of mind typically associated with the intellect’s discriminative functions.
5.3. Recontextualizing Mathematics as Dual-Aspect Conscious Experience
The DPV~ICRDAM framework provides a coherent metaphysical and neurophenomenological model to integrate and deepen the Reason–Boyer dialogue. According to this model, all manifested entities—including thoughts, perceptions, and even mathematical insights—are structured as Dual-Aspect States (DAS). Each DAS consists of:
· A subjective aspect (s), corresponding to conscious experience (CSE), and
· A non-subjective aspect (ns), referring to its neural-physical basis (NPB).
Mathematics, when approached as Cathy describes, is not primarily symbolic or intellectual (i.e., not fully grounded in the ns-aspect), but is a high-level modulation of the s-aspect that arises closer to the neutral, unmanifest ground—Nirguṇa Brahman (NB) or the pre-Big Bang Quantum Vacuum Field (preBB_QVF). In this view, mathematics is a non-discursive DAS, a manifestation of consciousness that resonates with the cosmic substrate (Saguṇa Brahman, SB), rather than with the filtered constructs of the egoic or rational mind.
This reinterpretation becomes even more precise when integrated with the Citta-Santāna model of the mindstream, which, when synthesized with DPV~ICRDAM, posits that consciousness is a continuous manifold in which discrete experiential “moments” emerge through cognitive-impositional boundary-setting. In other words, what appears as a stepwise intellectual process in mathematics is in fact the phenomenal illusion (mithyā) of discreteness—much like the appearance of segmented frames in a film reel. The actual ontological structure is a smooth, flowing manifold (Hilbert DAS space), within which mathematical awareness arises as a topological feature, not as a product of symbolic operations.
5.4 Mathematics as Turiya: A Trans-Intellectual State
The suggestion that mathematics might be turiya-like—i.e., a state of unconditioned awareness—is not merely poetic. Within DPV~ICRDAM, turiya is modeled as a turiya_DAS in which transcendental consciousness (Turiya Chetana)[i] is the s-aspect and its neural-physical basis (NPB) is the inseparable-complementary-reflective ns-aspect. Mathematical intuition, as Cathy describes it, seems to resonate with this condition: non-linguistic, non-local, yet sharply aware. Thus, Boyer’s inquiry—whether Cathy is pointing toward mathematics as a mode of transcendental consciousness—is affirmed and clarified through this dual-aspect ontology.
Moreover, the No Supervenience Theorem, which Cathy has previously articulated and Boyer emphasized, becomes intelligible in this framework. Since the subjective aspect (s) of mathematics cannot be reduced to or fully determined by its neural or symbolic substrates (ns), its nature as an inseparable-yet-irreducible phenomenon is upheld. This matches the inseparable-complementary-reflective nature of DAS in DPV~ICRDAM, where mental and physical aspects are interdependently co-arising but not derivable from one another.
5.5. Conclusion
In conclusion, the dialogue between Reason and Boyer is best understood not as a metaphysical disagreement, but as a convergent exploration pointing toward a non-dual, reflective ontology of mathematical consciousness. Mathematics, in this reading, is not merely a structure of cognition or a linguistic formalism, but a field of conscious resonance embedded in the DA_PPU~DA_SB continuum, emerging from and ultimately returning to NB~preBB_QVF. As such, it provides not just answers to equations, but a window into the unified structure of reality itself.
[i] CC-Turiya_Chetana: Transcendental consciousness (Turiya Chetana)—unbounded wakefulness, universal Self only [(Boyer, 23,25feb23): transcending the object of experience to pure, transcendental consciousness: consciousness itself without a separate object of experience other than itself -- self-referral consciousness. (Boyer, 1jul23): In my understanding, in the 4th state of consciousness we can say that the phenomenally separate/independent 'object' of experience (in ordinary waking state) is transcended and there is no independent object of experience -- just pure consciousness itself -- or we could also say, 'aware only of itself' (this is a way, and a stage of direct experience, to describe the state of 'self-referral').]
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RāmLakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
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