Brewing beer at the 'space
Mitch Davis
Way back in 1972, there were great celebrations across the land: Gough
Whitlam's Labour government had decided to legalise the brewing of
beer at home. Since then, tens of thousands have enjoyed this
past-time, which (in the same way hackers turn components into a cool
gadget) allows us to turn simple foodstuffs into a refreshing
alcoholic beverage. It's cheap, and not that hard: if you can solder,
you can make beer!
The simplest way to get into brewing beer is to buy a brewing kit, and
the ingredients. I can supply the equipment and the know-how, and
Andy has graciously offered to host a beer brew at his place, so I
would invite all of you who are interested in this organic hacking
(even if you don't drink) to take part.
The thing that makes brewing at home relatively easy is that breweries
do a certain amount of the work for you by making concentrates of the
grains and other ingredients. These concentrates make very nice beer,
and are well regarded. Curiously, Australia is a world leader in
this, with Coopers holding about 80% of the market worldwide.
Because so many of my friends thought this sounded interesting,
several years ago I photographed doing this, and I put up some web
pages:
http://home.exetel.com.au/~mjd/beer.html
I highly recommend having a read of these pages, as you'll very
quickly get the idea of what goes on.
You can brew quite a number of beers from concentrate:
http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guild/brewing-products/
Me, I like the lager :-)
Now we wouldn't be proper hackers if we weren't considering throwing
in some technology:
- Below a certain temperature, the fermentation process stops, so the
beer must be kept above that temperature. We are considering sitting
the fermenter on a box with a thermostat and a light bulb to keep the
beer warm.
- Fermentation produces CO2, which is vented using an airlock. The
easiest way to track the fermentation progress is to observe the
bubbling of the airlock.
Andy has suggested that we monitor both of these somehow, feeding the
data into pachube or Smart Energy Groups.
He and I have discussed dates, and in order to fit in with where
people are and when, we'd like to propose the following schedule:
- Tonight: Planning and introduction
- This weekend: Set-up and construction of brewing area, and
automation for heating and observing brewing process.
- October 19: Brew kick-off.
- Some time during week of October 25 (Tuesday may be too early, Sat
may be a bit late): Bottling.
You are all very welcome to join in!
Mitch.
Rob
Most yeasts will operate at cooler temperatures and start producing
nasty, off flavors after hitting about 16c for lager yeast and about
24ish for ale yeasts. Instead of heat a fridge or a freezer is the
preferred method of temperature control- In Melbourne climates the
issue is keeping the brew cold, not warm. you'll get your best results
brewing lager at around 13c and then lagering for a week at 1-2c
before bottling.
I've never been along to the space and only lucked on the group page
but would be interested in helping out this weekend. When it is time
for bottling I can supply bottles/caps/bottle capper and also may be
able to loan the space a kegerator.
Rob.
Mitch Davis
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Rob <wobb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Most yeasts will operate at cooler temperatures and start producing
> nasty, off flavors after hitting about 16c for lager yeast and about
> 24ish for ale yeasts.
Ahh yes, delightful aliphatic esters, etc. "Waiter, there's a
peach/banana in my beer!"
Curiously, when you buy a Cooper's "Lager" concentrate, it comes with
ale yeast, not lager yeast. I suspect that's because most home
brewers are only able to brew at room temperature, which suits an ale
yeast. It still tastes fine as long as you can redefine slightly in
your mind what it means for a beer to be a lager.
I once brewed such a "lager" and it had citrus notes. I wish I knew
how I did it as it was wonderfully refreshing. I hung onto that batch
for a long time and drank the last bottle rather reluctantly.
With an ale yeast, I would be aiming to brew at about 19-20C, possibly
increasing that in the last day or so to force fermentation of the
tail, in order to have it ready for bottling on the day we'd picked.
I think it should still be possible to brew using ale yeast in October
without cooling, but probably couldn't do it much beyond that.
> Instead of heat a fridge or a freezer is the
> preferred method of temperature control-
Yes.
I have a foam brew box at home, which can hold the fermenter. One of
my long term projects is to work on a temperature controller using an
Arduino and a thermoelectric cooler, aka Peltier device. That way,
the box could be both heated and cooled as necessary. One
complication is the electronics needed for an H-bridge capable of
supplying 12V at 4A.
> I've never been along to the space and only lucked on the group page
> but would be interested in helping out this weekend.
Ok! That sounds great. We haven't yet planned when or what things
are going to happen this weekend, beyond a vague "do stuff, this
weekend". Ideas?
> When it is time
> for bottling I can supply bottles/caps/bottle capper and also may be
I generally use plastic bottles, so there's no need for a capper, etc.
> able to loan the space a kegerator.
Hmm that's an idea. Can you share with the dear readers what a
kegerator is, and the whys and wherefores of when you would and
wouldn't use it?
Mitch.
Rob
> peach/banana in my beer!"
> Curiously, when you buy a Cooper's "Lager" concentrate, it comes with
> ale yeast, not lager yeast. I suspect that's because most home
> brewers are only able to brew at room temperature, which suits an ale
> yeast. It still tastes fine as long as you can redefine slightly in
> your mind what it means for a beer to be a lager.
once used a lager yeast at around 22 and it ended up down the sink. As
for the citrus notes, one of my favorite brews is a wheat beer kit
plus a few extra hops and 2kg's of wheat malt + 1kg dex.. you ferment
with corriander seeds and orange peel.. It makes a delicious beer.
> I generally use plastic bottles, so there's no need for a capper, etc.
also have 100's of them so it makes for cheaper brews- however
plastic is a lot easier to handle without the job of capping- at one
point last year we were brewing 60 litres a fortnight so you get
pretty quick.
> > able to loan the space a kegerator.
>
> Hmm that's an idea. Can you share with the dear readers what a
> kegerator is, and the whys and wherefores of when you would and
> wouldn't use it?
back for connection to a Carbon Dioxide Canister and any number at the
front (or the top) for taps. A keg of beer (usually what is known as a
corny keg- normally used for soft drink concentrate. Used as it has an
easy to open lid- easy to clean and holds 18 litres) sits inside and
is chilled to beery perfection. The pressure of the carbon dioxide
canister drives the beer out of the tap and also carbonates the brew.
An ale would be fine this time of year ticking along somewhere cool..
A nice light ale with some added hops for a final alcohol of 4-5%?
Rob
John Hobson
I was not able to make it last night but am interested in doing the
brewing with you. As some of you know Tuesdays is not a very good day
for me to get along to the space with only 1 Tuesday a month free. I am
free on the 19th and can make it along.
I myself bought the Coopers kit some time ago and made the first batch.
I want to complete a second batch using a Coopers Real Ale recipe which
is supposedly good. Using Coopers Real Ale concentrate, 500g Unhopped
Malt extract and 500g Dextrose.
I am moving in November and have no chance to use my gear until after
xmas at least, If you guys want to do 2 batches let me know. I am happy
to supply required gear, ingredients, bottles, caps and sugar drops and
we can share the finished beer out around the group. (remembering the
bottles and caps are reusable though so not to throw them out ;) )
I cant make it along this weekend as I am working.
John
Mitch Davis
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Rob <wobb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> for the citrus notes, one of my favorite brews is a wheat beer kit
> plus a few extra hops and 2kg's of wheat malt + 1kg dex.. you ferment
> with corriander seeds and orange peel.. It makes a delicious beer.
I'll have to remember that.
> A kegerator is a fridge with a a few holes drilled in it
Great things too and very nice of you to offer it. I'm of a mind to
keep things simple first time around though. Partly as there's the
electricity bill of keeping it cool.
> An ale would be fine this time of year ticking along somewhere cool..
> A nice light ale with some added hops for a final alcohol of 4-5%?
I do like that idea Rob. Very tempting.
And hi John,
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 1:06 PM, John Hobson <j.ho...@westnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> I am free on the 19th and can make it along.
I'm very happy to hear that!
> I myself bought the Coopers kit some time ago and made the first batch.
> I want to complete a second batch using a Coopers Real Ale recipe which
> is supposedly good. Using Coopers Real Ale concentrate, 500g Unhopped
> Malt extract and 500g Dextrose.
I can taste it now :-)
> I am happy
> to supply required gear, ingredients, bottles, caps and sugar drops and
> we can share the finished beer out around the group. (remembering the
> bottles and caps are reusable though so not to throw them out ;) )
You'd have to ask Andy about a second batch. I'm just looking at one
for the moment. Otherwise things are just going to get too busy on
the night. But I'm really hoping you can make it!
Mitch.
Mitch Davis
>
> Now we wouldn't be proper hackers if we weren't considering throwing
> in some technology:
>
> - Below a certain temperature, the fermentation process stops, so the
> beer must be kept above that temperature. We are considering sitting
> the fermenter on a box with a thermostat and a light bulb to keep the
> beer warm.
>
> - Fermentation produces CO2, which is vented using an airlock. The
> easiest way to track the fermentation progress is to observe the
> bubbling of the airlock.
>
> Andy has suggested that we monitor both of these somehow, feeding the
> data into pachube or Smart Energy Groups.
Hey guys, any thoughts on solving these puzzles this weekend?
Andy has offered to cook up the Arduino-powered thermostat, and supply
the power switcher. I'll be supplying the box (a drawer), the top
cover, a batten holder and a 40w globe. It would be good to have the
ability to remotely adjust the temperature set point, and observe the
current temperature of the barrel and in the box.
What can we do about the airlock monitoring? Andy suggested a webcam,
which is a pretty cool idea. Not sure if that's possible though.
Some people have suggested some sort of vibration sensor such as a
piezo. If we had such a sensor, we could log the pulses to something
like SEG or pachube, possibly via the Arduino thermostat. (Grant, I
know you'd like a CO2 sensor, but not sure it buys us anything).
Let your hacker minds go crazy guys. What can we achieve?
Mitch.
Richard Andrews
A small float, floating on the water of the airlock. As a CO2 bubble
comes under the S-bend the float sinks through the CO2 and clicks a
counter.
The float arm would need to be made of something long enough to rise
to the top of the airlock, and light enough that it would float on the
uncarbonated water. The mass of the arm could be offset with a
counter-weight but too much mass would make the system too slow to
respond to a bubble.
Idea 2
Add ink to the airlock water. A bubble passing under the bend would
then decrease opacity such that it could be measured via a light
sensor.
Idea 3
CO2 is more dense than air. A digital scales could be used to measure
the (small) change in weight of a container as air is replaced with
CO2. The change would be only in the order 2g per L of CO2. There
should be several L of CO2 produced from a barrel.
Luke Weston
this exercise; drinking the beer.
Oh, and I'm also generally interested in this homebrew exercise in all
its other aspects, too :)
As for detecting CO2 escaping from the beer during fermentation...
stick a little electret microphone on the airlock, interface to that
microphone appropriately, and you should easily be able to hear the
audible bloop-bloop-bloop sound the bubbles through the airlock make.
... /me goes poking through junk^H^H^H^Hcomponents draw... OK, there
is now a little electret microphone on my desk which can be donated to
this project.
Paul Bone
>
> Let your hacker minds go crazy guys. What can we achieve?
Yet another idea, I don't know if it's any good.
Modify the S-bend to contain electrodes that are connected by water when
there is no bubble moving through, and are not connected by water, just
air, when there is a bubble moving through the S-bend.
Count the cycles between 'connected' and 'not-connected'.
We would need to work out how much CO2 one 'bubble' is worth.
PS: This is my favorite of all the projects and ideas we've discussed.
If I had the time/room I'd probably make homebrew myself.
--
Paul Bone
Software Developer
http://www.bone.id.au
Andy Gelme
On 2010-09-29 21:29 , Mitch Davis wrote:
> You'd have to ask Andy about a second batch. I'm just looking at one
> for the moment.
Let's get one going first. Review, then see about multiple simultaneous
batches.
--
-O- cheers = /\ /\/ /) `/ =
--O -- http://www.geekscape.org --
OOO -- an...@geekscape.org -- http://twitter.com/geekscape --
Robert Johnson
On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Mitch Davis <m...@afork.com> wrote:
>
> Now we wouldn't be proper hackers if we weren't considering throwing
> in some technology:
>
> beer must be kept above that temperature. ?We are considering sitting
> the fermenter on a box with a thermostat and a light bulb to keep the
> beer warm.
>
> easiest way to track the fermentation progress is to observe the
> bubbling of the airlock.
>
> Andy has suggested that we monitor both of these somehow, feeding the
> data into pachube or Smart Energy Groups.
Hey guys, any thoughts on solving these puzzles this weekend?
Andy has offered to cook up the Arduino-powered thermostat, and supply
the power switcher. I'll be supplying the box (a drawer), the top
cover, a batten holder and a 40w globe. It would be good to have the
ability to remotely adjust the temperature set point, and observe the
current temperature of the barrel and in the box.
which is a pretty cool idea. Not sure if that's possible though.
Some people have suggested some sort of vibration sensor such as a
piezo. If we had such a sensor, we could log the pulses to something
like SEG or pachube, possibly via the Arduino thermostat. (Grant, I
know you'd like a CO2 sensor, but not sure it buys us anything).
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Rob B
Regards Rob B
PS has any one thought of a still ?
Mitch Davis
One thing that I didn't mention is that hygiene is incredibly
important when brewing. Imagine a fermenter full of fermentable
sugars. Your yeast will love it. But so will any other bacteria and
wild yeasts that happen to be floating around. In order to save all
that fermentable goodness for your good yeast and nothing else, we
have to make sure there's nothing else.
Partly this is about not leaving the tops off things any longer than
necessary, partly it's about being fastidious when cleaning the
hardware (especially threads, bungs and seals, which can trap residual
bugs), and partly about not giving bugs a place to hide in the first
place. That last point has consequences for designing sensors.
Hmm, let's see what I can find in the beer-related inbox:
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 9:24 AM, Rob B <rbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the SG changes then surely the weight of the contents would change, my only question is would it be by a perceivable amount. What is SG range we are looking at, and the weight of brew?
When measuring density, we assume that pure water is 1000. When we
start a brew, it'll be around 1037-1050, depending on the amount of
sugars. By the end, it'll be below 1010.
The wurt when first made up is 22.5L. Add about kilo for the barrel and such.
> PS has any one thought of a still ?
Sadly, I don't think it's legal, whereas brewing beer is.
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Richard Andrews <bflat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Idea 1
>
> A small float, floating on the water of the airlock. As a CO2 bubble
> comes under the S-bend the float sinks through the CO2 and clicks a
> counter.
Nice idea, but ideally you don't want anything touching the inside of
the airlock, as it's a possible source of bad bugs, and something that
has to be kept clean.
> Idea 2
>
> Add ink to the airlock water. A bubble passing under the bend would
> then decrease opacity such that it could be measured via a light
> sensor.
This is a good idea. Need to have illumination so it works at night...
> CO2 is more dense than air. A digital scales could be used to measure
> the (small) change in weight of a container as air is replaced with
> CO2. The change would be only in the order 2g per L of CO2. There
> should be several L of CO2 produced from a barrel.
Measure the net change in weight of the fermenter over the
fermentation? Hmm, interesting.
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Paul Bone <pa...@bone.id.au> wrote:
>
> Modify the S-bend to contain electrodes that are connected by water when
> there is no bubble moving through, and are not connected by water, just
> air, when there is a bubble moving through the S-bend.
>
> Count the cycles between 'connected' and 'not-connected'.
The problem is that the bubble is momentary, and the contacts won't
have time to dry, so there'll always be conductivity. Also, there
needs to be ions in the water, which means we'd probably need to add a
little salt. Not sure how sensible that is. Also, having current
there could lead to electrolysis, something I'd rather avoid in an
airlock. Plus the potential to harbour bugs.
But keep the ideas coming Paul!
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Robert Johnson <wobb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've always wanted to have some way to measure the specific gravity (the thickness of the liquor which correlates to the amount of sugar in the wurt) of the beer constantly in order to tell when the brewing has finished and to save wastage.
> I am a little stumped on how to automate/make this electronic though- a light passing through a clear tube of the wurt (the beer to be) and a sensor on the other side... or a float in the fermenter which we can measure the height of (much like a toilets ballcock?)
Very interesting. I had thought of a totally sealed unit which you
can pop into the barrel, and it would report density wirelessly. It
could have a battery and inductive coil for charging, possibly stolen
from a cordless electric toothbrush.
Not sure how to do the density measurement. Let's assume we can make
it so it will bob on the top of the liquid. The level at which it
bobs will be proportional to the density. What if we had a piezo
speaker which emitted a chirp, then listened for an echo? The echo
would depend on the water level.
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Luke Weston <reindeer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I volunteer to take responsibility for the most important phase of
> this exercise; drinking the beer.
Ok, great. I was hoping someone would! Me, I think it's more fun to
brew it than drink it...
> As for detecting CO2 escaping from the beer during fermentation...
> stick a little electret microphone on the airlock, interface to that
> microphone appropriately, and you should easily be able to hear the
> audible bloop-bloop-bloop sound the bubbles through the airlock make.
I like this idea most of all. No contact with the beer, nothing to
clean, simple to implement, and simple to connect up to the web.
> ... /me goes poking through junk^H^H^H^Hcomponents draw... OK, there
> is now a little electret microphone on my desk which can be donated to
> this project.
Great! Now all we need is for someone to put it together. Andy's
running the thermostat. Luke, would you be able to knock up something
to do bloop detection?
Mitch.
Clifford Heath
>> PS has any one thought of a still ?
>
> Sadly, I don't think it's legal, whereas brewing beer is.
That's not true actually. It's legal to own an unlicensed
still of up to 5L boiler capacity. What's not legal is using
it to manufacture an excisable product without paying
the excise. That includes alcohol for either drinking or
as fuel. You can manufacture pure ethanol as rubbing
alcohol, or to manufacture distilled water, for example,
for health reasons.
Is anyone who considers themselves a competent brazer
willing to give me a lesson? I'm good with lead-based
solder, but I haven't assembled my still mainly because
when I try to braze, I seem to wind up with burnt metal
without a clean solder flow. That could be because I've
tried on stainless and other difficult metals, without the
right fluxes... so I'd love some tips. In return, you'll see
how to easily make a condenser with cheap plumbing
store parts ;-).
Clifford Heath.
Mitch Davis
<cliffor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What's not legal is using it to manufacture an excisable
> product without paying the excise.
That goes for beer too: You can make it, you just can't sell it.
Mitch.
Tom Clift
> Andy has suggested that we monitor both of these somehow, feeding the
> data into pachube or Smart Energy Groups.
>
> He and I have discussed dates, and in order to fit in with where
> people are and when, we'd like to propose the following schedule:
>
> - Tonight: Planning and introduction
>
> - This weekend: Set-up and construction of brewing area, and
> automation for heating and observing brewing process.
>
> - October 19: Brew kick-off.
>
> - Some time during week of October 25 (Tuesday may be too early, Sat
> may be a bit late): Bottling.
>
> You are all very welcome to join in!
>
> Mitch
Hi All,
I've been lurking the list for a while now as I'm interested in getting
into Arduino hacking. As yet I haven't gotten around to getting one,
but this topic caught my attention. I've been brewing all grain for a
bit over a year, and right now I'm in the process of up-sizing and
setting up some automation and gadgets.
Recently I set up an STC-1000 temperature controller, which is a dual
(heating + cooling) controller that I will use for fermentation
temperature control. Cooling is a (wine) fridge, heating is an aquarium
heater. I did think about DIYing this part with an Arduino, but I don't
have an electronics background and I didn't feel confident with the
relays and mains voltage. The unit had enough wiring as it was :) I
can send photos or diagrams if anyone is interested in that part.
Next, I've bought (but not yet set up) a Brewtroller [
http://www.brewtroller.com/ ], which is a Sanguino provided with their
software for automating many parts of the brewing process. Their online
shop also sells many of the components for setting it up, like a 16 port
relay board, temperature sensors, LEDs, etc. The first step of
automation for me will be to have the unit watch and control the
temperature of the mash, maintaining the mash temperature I want by
controlling a heating element, the pump, and some solenoids.
(Brewers-to-be: The mash is where you combine malted grain with hot
water to extract and produce the sugars that will be fermented. The end
product is equivalent to the malt extract you can buy in a can.).
I can't make it this weekend, but if anyone is interested in seeing or
playing with the Brewtroller I could bring it along some time. It's not
set up so it doesn't do anything interesting just yet, but I could
probably just connect the basics as it has some LEDs that light up when
it's switching things on and off.
The Brewtroller site has a wealth of knowledge about the hardware and
software, and they have a great community in the forums, including some
drool worthy homebrewing setups. Check out this one:
http://forum.brewtroller.com/showpost.php?p=10400&postcount=91
For the home brewers, there's a great quarterly event called Brewshare
at The Local Taphouse in St Kilda where people come to share their
creations. There's even a prize for the best voted beer! Next one is
23rd November.
http://thelocaltaphouse.blogspot.com/2010/08/st-kilda-brewshare-august.html
Cheers,
Tom
Clifford Heath
Right, but with distilled alcohol, you can't even make it, if it's for
drinking or as fuel. I spoke direct to the tax office about this a
few years back, after I found the legislation which allows an
unregistered still up to 5L boiler size.
You can make *and* drink your own beer though, so it's different.
Mitch Davis
<cliffor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 30/09/2010, at 10:36 AM, Mitch Davis wrote:
>
> Right, but with distilled alcohol, you can't even make it, if it's for
> drinking or as fuel.
How about if you rub it on your tongue, repeatedly? :-)
M.
Mitch Davis
>
> Hi All,
Hey Tom! Lovely to see you delurk!
> I've been brewing all grain for a bit over a year,
> The mash is where
> you combine malted grain with hot water to extract and produce the sugars
> that will be fermented. The end product is equivalent to the malt extract
> you can buy in a can.).
Ladies and gentlemen, Tom here is a Real Brewer, none of this
from-a-can stuff! :-)
For the moment, I think the spring brew we're planning now is best
done using a concentrate, just to keep it simple and understandable,
and so people can replicate it at home. But having someone who knows
what they're doing (= not me) for further activities in the future
would be excellent.
I for one would love to see your stuff, especially the STC-1000 and
the Brewtroller. We have people here who can give you the advice
you're after. Please please come along to a meeting some time so we
can catch up!
Mitch.
Clifford Heath
> Is anyone who considers themselves a competent brazer
No takers?
Clifford Heath.
John Hobson
What material and thickness are you using? I have done a lot of brazing
with blow torch on Steel, if your using brass though it is best to
silver solder. Depending on location and schedule I can possibly help.
Clifford Heath
> What material and thickness are you using? I have done a lot of
> brazing
> with blow torch on Steel, if your using brass though it is best to
> silver solder. Depending on location and schedule I can possibly help.
My most complete failure was trying to put the handle back
on a old and much-loved Italian s/s frying-pan. I had flux for
s/s, and bought silver solder that I thought was appropriate,
but I just couldn't get the solder to flow. It had worked ok on
2mm s/s wire. Do I need to be able to control the oxygen
mixture on the torch to produce the right kind of flame? Or is
it just a matter of the right flux, solder and amount of heat?
The condenser is brass, which I expect would be a lot easier.
The reflux tower is 2" brass though, and I'm not sure I have
enough heat for that size, using a MAPP gas torch. I haven't
failed because I haven't tried :-).
I thought silver soldering and brazing were the same thing.
What's the difference?
I'm in N-W Mt Waverley, East Burwood area.
Andy Gelme
Brewing beer in the Hacker^H^H^H^H^H^HSpace ...
http://www.space.com/news/testing-space-beer-100927.html
John Hobson
> My most complete failure was trying to put the handle back
> on a old and much-loved Italian s/s frying-pan. I had flux for
> s/s, and bought silver solder that I thought was appropriate,
> but I just couldn't get the solder to flow. It had worked ok on
> 2mm s/s wire. Do I need to be able to control the oxygen
> mixture on the torch to produce the right kind of flame? Or is
> it just a matter of the right flux, solder and amount of heat?
>
> The condenser is brass, which I expect would be a lot easier.
> The reflux tower is 2" brass though, and I'm not sure I have
> enough heat for that size, using a MAPP gas torch. I haven't
> failed because I haven't tried :-).
>
> I thought silver soldering and brazing were the same thing.
> What's the difference?
>
> I'm in N-W Mt Waverley, East Burwood area.
>
Im in Pakenham so could possibly get up to help if you want some.
Im guessing the frying pan would conduct so much heat the join area
would not be getting hot enough.
Well brazing and silver soldering are the same, but what I call brazing
uses different type of rods - error on my behalf. I have used both and
refer to these rods as brazing. They are just a Cigweld Gas welding rods
you buy at bunnings or supercheap. The melting point is much higher and
they work great where joins are not 100% - have good gap filling
abilities and very strong. They dont work well on brass, copper etc as
they material melts as soon as the filler starts to flow.
http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Cigweld-Gas-Welding-Brazing-Rods-Comcoat-C-Blue.aspx?pid=131233#details
Silver solder needs less heat, flows smoother but that means the join
really has to 100% contact for it to work correctly.
My experience is with building chassis, roll cages and other parts for
R/C cars - im by no means an expert but I have had a bit of time behind
the torch.
Peter
Hi peeps,
Seems the list has gone wild with beer, I've never seen so many posts
about a single topic. So is CCHS now a brew club ; )
Has there been any updates on finding a permanent location and are all
the locations looked at so far near the CBD or west thereof?
I live outer outer east and wold love to see something a bit more middle
east'ish (I know people come from everywhere) but somewhere Boxhill -
Burwood would be a dream. I know in the past that even getting to
Hawthorne to be a part of Melb Wireless was a hassle and so I rarely
made meetings.
Once a site is setup I should be able to donate a reasonable amount of
materials and used power tools, and may have a contact to get some
donated new hand tools ( I'll let you know more as a building gets
closer). I also often get access to new damaged power tools etc which I
usually pick up for cents in the dollar so I'll chase up a way of making
this a more consistent supply of tinkerable bits if people are interested.
Peter.
Clifford Heath
> Im guessing the frying pan would conduct so much heat the join area
> would not be getting hot enough.
Not sure - the metal was quite thin where I was trying to solder.
> ... Cigweld Gas welding rods...
Maybe I'll have another go with those, and just launch in on brass as
well.
> Silver solder needs less heat, flows smoother but that means the join
> really has to 100% contact for it to work correctly.
My 2mm wires were spot-welded first, which I'm sure helped.
I have a small spot welder, ex-dentistry, excellent for this stuff.
Thanks for the offer of help. I'll have another few tries before
I hassle you though.
Clifford Heath.
Ross McKenzie
but feel it is starting a trend that I am not entirely attracted towards.
Cheers,
Ross
Ross McKenzie
Peter.
Cheers,
Ross
On 1/10/2010 5:39 AM, Peter wrote:
>
Clifford Heath
> Seems the list has gone wild with beer, I've never seen so many
> posts about a single topic.
Well, sorry - I should have changed my subject line to "Brazing help
wanted" :-)
... so I did that for the mid-east location discussion.
> I live outer outer east and wold love to see something a bit more
> middle east'ish (I know people come from everywhere) but somewhere
> Boxhill - Burwood would be a dream.
I agree, that would get my interest, whereas CBD/west definitely won't.
Has anyone spoken to Melbourne Society of Model & Experimental
Engineers,
<http://www.msmee.org.au/>? They a very similar organisation from a
previous
generation, and have some members with incredible CV's, even though
there
is historically an excessive interest in steam. One bloke for example
has flown
for three different airforces, including flying the US President's
plane, and the
cross-channel hovercraft. He's forgotten more engineering that you or
I will ever
know.
Clifford Heath.
Andy Gelme
On 2010-09-30 12:42 , Ross McKenzie wrote:
> Yes Peter, I agree ... "gone wild with beer".
I believe that you'll find that the majority of the discussions are
along the lines of the process and creating sensors, etc. Not too
surprising for a HackerSpace.
I don't think you find too much of the "let's create truckloads of cheap
beer and have the party to end all parties" ... going on here.
As you might imagine, I wouldn't be encouraging the later ... given the
current CCHS location !
I'm sure that Mitch could have quite happily kept brewing beer at home
(and will probably do so in the future) ... and in this instance is just
sharing something that he is interested in, with others.
I'm also surprised by the amount of discussion ... and think that
overall, that's healthy. Let's tempt those shy email-list lurkers out
of their warm, safe burrows :)
> I am not a teetotaller, but feel it is starting a trend that I am not
> entirely attracted towards.
We'll need to strike a balance between different people's interests. In
general, if everyone is respectful of other people's opinions, beliefs,
etc ... then, we should be okay.
If we reach a position that projects only happen because a significant
majority of people are actively supporting it (and no individuals
oppose) ... then, we may find that we won't find enough common ground.
I suspect that this "beer brewing project" will have novelty and some
educational value ... then, we'll all move on. Perhaps, if it's
successful, there may be interest in V2.0 ... but, I can't imagine us
doing the same thing (whatever it is), over and over again.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I'd encourage everyone to think of personal interests, things that they
are passionate about ... that have relevance to the HackerSpace
(something can be hacked, is fun, interesting and educational) and
create a group project. Of course, not every project will appeal to
everyone.
Grant Diffey
Mitch Davis
> What EXACTLY is wrong with steam?
It doesn't run on Linux.
Grant Diffey
Clifford Heath
> umm yeah it does. steam is involved in the vast majority of
> electricity production and it'd suprise me if linux wasn't running
> lots of the SCADA control systems for steam plant and generators etc.
It's an "in" joke Grant: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_(software)>
Please change the subject line if you aren't discussing a mid-east
location for CCHS.
Grant Diffey
--
Tom Clift
Hear hear!
Oh, and I'm in inner SE.
Luke Weston
>
> Is anyone who considers themselves a competent brazer
> willing to give me a lesson? I'm good with lead-based
> solder, but I haven't assembled my still mainly because
> when I try to braze, I seem to wind up with burnt metal
> without a clean solder flow. That could be because I've
> tried on stainless and other difficult metals, without the
> right fluxes... so I'd love some tips. In return, you'll see
> how to easily make a condenser with cheap plumbing
> store parts ;-).
>
as "silver solder", 2% silver or so) before, but not steel or other
metals.
I reckon for many applications, using electronics-style Pb-free solder
(which is typically 99.7% Sn 0.3% Cu or something similar) might be
better, since it has a lower melting point which would make things
easier.
I'm told that when brazing steel (for example on a refrigeration
compressor with steel tubes) you need a silver solder rod which is
high-silver, 40% silver or so. The CigWeld brazing rods with the flux
cladding (the ones that look a little bit like arc-welder electrodes)
are also good for steel I think, but they have a relatively high
melting point. I've only got a MAPP torch, not an oxy, which means the
only time I have tried to use them didn't work successfully as I
couldn't get the work piece hot enough - but that's not to say they
don't work effectively.
Do you make a still by putting two different diameter bits of copper
tube together with one inside the other and putting a tee and then a
reducer on the ends? Surely everyone knows how to make a still that
way :)
BTW Clifford, I thought your Trampoline talk was good :)
Clifford Heath
> I'm told that when brazing steel (for example on a refrigeration
> compressor with steel tubes) you need a silver solder rod which is
> high-silver, 40% silver or so.
Figures. I'll try that sometime.
> Do you make a still by putting two different diameter bits of copper
> tube together with one inside the other and putting a tee and then a
> reducer on the ends? Surely everyone knows how to make a still that
> way :)
Yabut... you can get a copper part which is a combo 1/2"->3/4"
reducer with a tee on the side - it's perfect!
> BTW Clifford, I thought your Trampoline talk was good :)
Thanks. I thought it went ok for zero preparation ;-)
I had been preparing a talk on Direct Democracy, but
others more experienced ante'd up theirs instead.
Clifford Heath.
Luke Weston
> Great! Now all we need is for someone to put it together. Andy's
> running the thermostat. Luke, would you be able to knock up something
> to do bloop detection?
>
> Mitch.
Sure can :)
On Sep 30, 1:21 pm, Grant Diffey <gdif...@gmail.com> wrote:
> umm yeah it does. steam is involved in the vast majority of electricity
> production and it'd suprise me if linux wasn't running lots of the SCADA
> control systems for steam plant and generators etc.
>
kinds of SCADA and PLC-interface systems on Windows is a leading cause
of epic fail.
Mitch Davis
>
>> Great! Now all we need is for someone to put it together. Andy's
>> running the thermostat. Luke, would you be able to knock up something
>> to do bloop detection?
>>
>> Mitch.
>
> Sure can :)
Superspiffalicious! Arduino compatible?
> On Sep 30, 1:21 pm, Grant Diffey <gdif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Except for the Iranians, who seem to have learned that running those
> kinds of SCADA and PLC-interface systems on Windows is a leading cause
> of epic fail.
Who was it who recently suggested we find a hackerspace location in
the "middle east" (sic)?
Mitch.
Mitch Davis
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Luke Weston <reindeer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sep 30, 1:21 pm, Grant Diffey <gdif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Except for the Iranians, who seem to have learned that running those
>> kinds of SCADA and PLC-interface systems on Windows is a leading cause
>> of epic fail.
Sorry, misattributed quote: It was Luke who said that, not Grant.
M.
Richard Andrews
<cliffor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I live outer outer east and wold love to see something a bit more middle
>> east'ish (I know people come from everywhere) but somewhere Boxhill -
>> Burwood would be a dream.
>
> I agree, that would get my interest, whereas CBD/west definitely won't.
Me too. Camberwell to Ringwood is good for me.
Ross McKenzie
So who was it that "poo-hoo'd" the place I found in Blackburn ?
Russell Coker
> I don't think you find too much of the "let's create truckloads of cheap
> beer and have the party to end all parties" ... going on here.
I agree that having a "party to end all parties" doesn't really fit in with
what we plan in terms of hacking - not even when we have our own location.
But I think that when we do have some rented premises then it would be nice to
occasionally have a mild celebration where everyone has a glass or two of
beer. Note that I specifically mean a quantity that is less than three
glasses.
Also does anyone know the legal situation in regard to such things? Naturally
we can't have U18s do any drinking and we can't have anyone selling alcohol
(which gives more tax issues than you want in addition to licensing issues).
But are there any other issues with sharing home brewed alcohol in a semi-
public place?
I hope that when we rent premises it will be near a BYO restaurant so anyone
who wants to have a wilder party than is sensible for a location that is full
of power tools etc can have somewhere good and cheap to go.
http://etbe.coker.com.au/2010/03/26/hacker-spaces/
The pictures from my Noisebridge visit last year are worth checking out in
this regard. There was a bottle of Port free for anyone to drink, but it
seemed that everyone was too busy doing computer stuff to touch it.
--
rus...@coker.com.au
http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog
Russell Coker
> My preference is towards the inner east. Richmond or CBD would be ideal but
> if we can avoid the currently required train change at camberwell when
> comming from the city that'd be good.
I haven't yet become a member due to the difficulty of getting to meetings.
Overlapping LUV meetings is a factor in this, as is the difficulty in getting
to Camberwell.
I agree that past Camberwell is a serious issue, the further you go the less
frequent the trains are.
http://www.metrotrains.com.au/
From the above URL (which is horrible in every way that matters) it seems that
trains from Camberwell station are reasonably frequent until just after 10PM.
The further away from the CBD the less frequent the trains and therefore the
less viable it is for anyone who is traveling to some place that isn't further
east on the same line.
A location at Burnley or East Richmond would be really good. I'm guessing
that Richmond will be quite expensive, but maybe Burnley will be more
affordable and it will still get the Glen Waverley line trains.
Being within a short walk of a train station is a really good thing. Taking
heavy equipment on a train is a lot easier than on a tram.
Peter
heads up, all fixed now.
Peter
Mitch Davis
>
> I agree that having a "party to end all parties" doesn't really fit in with
> what we plan in terms of hacking - not even when we have our own location.
Couldn't agree more. The interest for me is in the hacking, both
electronic and organic. And we have a responsibility to use our
powers wisely :-)
> Also does anyone know the legal situation in regard to such things? Naturally
> we can't have U18s do any drinking
As someone who wants to be a responsible parent, I checked this out
some time ago, and as far as I recall, there is intentionally no law
against minors consuming alcohol. There are however laws against
selling alcohol to minors, and laws which prohibit minors drinking
alcohol in or near licensed premises.
> and we can't have anyone selling alcohol
That is an excise issue.
> But are there any other issues with sharing home brewed alcohol in a semi-
> public place?
If it's not for sale, and it's not a place that is or should be
licensed, I think "don't be stupid" will generally be legally
compliant. But IANAL.
Mitch.
Luke Weston
> > But are there any other issues with sharing home brewed alcohol in a semi-
> > public place?
>
public space.
I don't believe there are any legal issues that are any different to
bringing and sharing some off-the-shelf alcoholic beverages with
people at a private premises... that is, basically no legal issues at
all.
Peter
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-20000-pints-of-beer/
Cheers (burb)
Mitch Davis
> Here's a link to anyone interested. Making 20,000 pints of beer. There are
> other links for brewing as well.
Isn't actually instructions. More like a sunday paper article. But
still interesting all the same.
For what it's worth, we'll be making 22½ litres. That will fill
around 30 750ml bottles.
Mitch.
j.hobson
read the whole article as Im a little busy right now, but could help
you guys out a bit:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=131
Homemade Wine: Counting Bubbles Through Airlock
Mitch Davis
Ex*treme*ly interesting, thank you for that! The photo interrupter
looks a very effective way of measuring bubbles (but read the
comments).
Brew night is but a short 10 days away, and counting...
Mitch.
John Hobson
> Brew night is but a short 10 days away, and counting...
>
> Mitch.
>
Cant wait - Will be there for sure to check it out.
Mitch Davis
Well Tuesday 19 has arrived: beer brewing day!
If you missed my original post, it's here:
http://groups.google.com/group/connected-community-hackerspace/browse_thread/thread/b85c41f420cd0a5f
If you're attending, can I ask you to first review my illustrated guide?
http://capnkernel.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!7575877A8EC2FE5F!169.entry
NOTE WELL: If you come tomorrow, I'll assume that you've read it.
The beer we'll be brewing will be Cooper's "Australian Pale Ale", with
extra sugars provided by Cooper's "Brew Enhancer 2":
http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guild/how-to-brew/ale/australian-pale-ale
The fermenter vessel will be kept at a constant temperature using an
Arduino-powered controller Andy has cooked up, and we will also be
monitoring the "plops" of the CO2 going through the airlock.
Fermentation should take around 8-9 days, just in time for a bottling
session on Saturday the 30th.
One of the keys to good beer is to be paranoid about hygiene. I'll
have hand disinfectant for us to use, and if you're going to help out,
then once you've disinfected your hands, please don't touch your
clothes or face, or basically anything else that hasn't been
disinfected.
I'm very excited about this, and I hope we can all have some fun doing
organic hacking!
Mitch.
Mitch Davis
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Mitch Davis <m...@afork.com> wrote:
>
> Well Tuesday 19 has arrived: beer brewing day!
Those of you who came to the meeting last Tuesday saw how it's done.
At the end, we had a fermenter full of wurt (the hopped malt and sugar
mixture) and yeast. Andy said he'd hook up his temperature
controller.
A lot can happen in a week! The controller has kept the temp
somewhere between 19 and 20C, and Andy tells me the beer, which first
popped at about one every three seconds, is now popping at around one
every minute. In my mind, that means the beer is done fermenting, and
is now a candidate for bottling.
Sometimes brews stop brewing for various reasons, and become "stuck".
The problem with bottling a "stuck" brew (apart from it not being very
beery due to incomplete conversion) is that the brewing can start
again later, and create overpressure in the bottles. I'll leave the
implications to your imagination.
The only sure way to know is to take a sample, and measure the
specific gravity (aka density) using a hydrometer. The hydrometer I
used last Tuesday isn't with the other stuff I used on Tuesday, and it
appears it's not at Andy's place (could it be in your car Ross?
Wouldn't be the first time I've left something behind...). Therefore
at present we can't do a reading. But I've had a taste of the beer,
and well, it's beer :-)
Beer straight out of the fermenter is called "green" beer. It has no
bubbles, is very cloudy and the flavours are not well developed. A
few weeks after bottling, further fermentation in the bottle will have
made it carbonated, and the debris will have fallen to the bottom of
the bottle. Than it's beer!
Generally, if the green beer tastes good, then the mature beer will
taste even better. And judging by the sample, it's going to be very
nice. Fingers crossed.
Although our initial plans were to bottle the beer next Saturday
afternoon, I'm considering bottling it earlier, on Tuesday night.
There are three reasons. The first is that there's now a layer of
crud (called "trub") on the bottom of the barrel left over from the
brewing, and it's not good to have the green beer sit on that for more
than a few days. The second reason is that even though we sterilised
the barrel, there would still have been a miniscule amount of other
yeast and bacteria in the barrel. Some of those bacteria, although
very slow to start, can take all that nice alcohol and turn it into
vinegar. By bottling, we reduce the risk the whole batch will be bad.
Third, by bottling on Tuesday instead of Saturday, we get our beer A
WHOLE FOUR DAYS EARLIER! Haha, only kidding about the last one.
So I guess that's where we're at. If anyone was really hanging out to
bottle on Saturday, please let me know. Saturday will still be ok,
but on Tuesday I'll move the beer from one barrel to another one,
leaving the trub behind.
Otherwise, any objections to bottling on Tuesday night?
And if anyone has a brewing hydrometer, can you bring it on Tuesday
night please?
Mitch.
artwww.net
Third, by bottling on Tuesday instead of Saturday, we get our beer A
WHOLE FOUR DAYS EARLIER! Haha, only kidding about the last one.
John Hobson
> Otherwise, any objections to bottling on Tuesday night?
No objections here :)
> And if anyone has a brewing hydrometer, can you bring it on Tuesday
> night please?
Yep, Ill bring mine along for us to use. Better to be 100% that it
hasn't stalled :)
John
Mitch Davis
>
>> Otherwise, any objections to bottling on Tuesday night?
>
> No objections here :)
Antoinette?
>> And if anyone has a brewing hydrometer, can you bring it on Tuesday
>> night please?
>
> Yep, Ill bring mine along for us to use. Better to be 100% that it
> hasn't stalled :)
Thanks John, that'd be great. Oh, one thing I didn't mention: I've
asked Andy to turn the temperature up to 23C. We generally wouldn't
do that while the brew was going, because the beer would have
unpleasant fruity flavours. But at this stage in the brew, the
increased temp will help to wring out the last bit of fermentation so
we can be sure it's ready for Tuesday night. And sometimes it can
unstick a brew. (But in this case, based on the taste, I think we are
right on track)
Mitch.
Antoinette J. Citizen
Mitch Davis
I think we're lined up to bottle the beer at tonight's meeting. I
washed and sterilised the bottles last night.
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Antoinette J. Citizen
<antoinett...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am in Castlemaine all week, so I can't come on Tuesday. Shame I won't be
> there.... but i think I have been inspired to make one at home anyway- so im
> sure ill get to do lots of bottling!
Sorry you'll miss out Antoinette. If you want to bottle at your place
some time, I'm happy to come and help.
Mitch.
Luke Gogolkiewicz
Luke.
Mitch.
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Mitch Davis
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Luke Gogolkiewicz <syn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You guys need any empty bottles? If so, what size would be preferred?
That's a generous offer, thanks. I think we're right for tonight, as
we have 30 750mL sterilised bottles waiting at Andy's place.
Could come in useful for future brews if some members are interested
in starting a brewing subgroup though. (Not necessarily at Andy's
place)
Mitch.
webmaster jjbarrows @ artwww.net
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live video performance; web site design; new media artist
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Mitch.
Mitch Davis
>
> I think we're lined up to bottle the beer at tonight's meeting. I
> washed and sterilised the bottles last night.
The beer has been bottled and everything went smoothly. We have 31
bottles. The beer will spend the next few weeks generating bubbles
in the cupboard.
We measured the specific gravity, and the brew indeed finished.
According to my calculations, the alcohol content of the beer is 4.5%.
Nice.
Thank you to everyone who helped, especially Andy for providing the
place and cooking up the temperature controller!
Mitch.
