First CCHS Tuesday evening meeting for 2010 ... and this weekend
andyg (@geekscape)
Just confirming that the meeting is on tomorrow evening (Tuesday, 2nd
February), starting at 6 pm, at the usual location.
In addition to hacking ... it'll be good to set some goals and make
some plans for this year.
Some suggested discussion topics are ...
- Permanent location ... to allow for growth (more hacking and
hackers) throughout 2010
- Organization ... consider formalizing membership, potentially form a
legal entity
- CCHS web site ... better presence on the Internet
- Group projects for 2010 ... what ? funding ?
- Group culture / directions ... who are we and what new members would
we like to attract ?
- Interaction with other HackerSpaces
- LCA2011 (and other conferences) ... it's never too soon to start
thinking ambitiously !
- LCA2010 post-mortem / brain-dump
- Anything else that matters to you !
Looking forward to catching up with everyone and meeting new members !
cheers andyg (@geekscape)
nevyn
> hi All,
>
> Just confirming that the meeting is on tomorrow evening (Tuesday, 2nd
> February), starting at 6 pm, at the usual location.
>
> In addition to hacking ... it'll be good to set some goals and make
> some plans for this year.
>
> Some suggested discussion topics are ...
>
> - Permanent location ... to allow for growth (more hacking and
> hackers) throughout 2010
> - Organization ... consider formalizing membership, potentially form a
> legal entity
> - CCHS web site ... better presence on the Internet
> - Group projects for 2010 ... what ? funding ?
> - Group culture / directions ... who are we and what new members would
> we like to attract ?
> - Interaction with other HackerSpaces
> - LCA2011 (and other conferences) ... it's never too soon to start
> thinking ambitiously !
> - LCA2010 post-mortem / brain-dump
> - Anything else that matters to you !
>
Grant
Mitch Davis
> On Feb 1, 11:25 am, "andyg (@geekscape)" <geeksc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Just confirming that the meeting is on tomorrow evening (Tuesday, 2nd
>> February), starting at 6 pm, at the usual location.
>
I will be bringing a friend of mine, Richard Andrews.
Mitch.
Ross McKenzie
Michael Collas suggested that I attend so as to see firsthand what you
folks get up to. So, short of a world collapse, I will be attending also.
Regards,
Ross McKenzie
Joseph Barrows
Joseph Barrows, BFA.
live video performance; web site design; new media artist
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Luke Weston
On Feb 1, 8:14 pm, Joseph Barrows <jjbarr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm interested in coming along, I haven't been involved before - where is
> the usual space?
>
> -joseph
> If you wish to know the meeting location, please contact member andyg (geekscape) or Twitter direct message @geekscape.
michaelc
milling machine are:
1) Finish the work to mount the Z-axis opto-interrupter. If I recall
correctly, we have a couple of holes to drill out to size and/or tap.
2) Mount the wiring breakout board (I assembled this over the break)
on the side of one of the columns.
Even at a fairly leisurely pace, I think these two tasks are
achievable by the end of the weekend. The next few jobs after this
are:
1) Wire the milling machine electrical components to the breakout
board.
2) Re-assemble the machine.
3) Design and build the breakout board for the controller side of the
machine.
4) Assemble something temporary to drive the machine enough to work on
the alignment.
Michael Collas
On Feb 1, 11:25 am, "andyg (@geekscape)" <geeksc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hi All,
>
> Just confirming that the meeting is on tomorrow evening (Tuesday, 2nd
> February), starting at 6 pm, at the usual location.
>
...
> cheers andyg (@geekscape)
andyg (@geekscape)
Scott Penrose wrote:
> The goal of a dedicated and funded space has always been high on my list.
With potentially 10 new people coming along to the meeting this
evening (first one for 2010) ... I agree that space is critical !
p.s. Those existing members coming along tonight ... please be
prepared to help (a larger influx than usual of) newcomers have a
great evening.
> Finding a space first, maybe self funded, to get enough press would be good.
We already have a "first space" (garage), which has allowed us to
"prototype" the group through most of last year, and have had some
indirect press ...
http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/down-to-the-nuts-and-bolts-20091104-hwfq.html
... and good visibility at numerous conferences in 2009 (StixCamp,
Trampoline 1 & 2, BarCamp, Software Freedom Day) and most recently at
the LCA2010 Arduino / Open Hardware mini-conference.
We have a number of projects that will be or have reached a level of
maturity that could be "published" to a wider audience. And, maybe,
if Jon doesn't mind ... there is some leverage from speaking about and
publicizing "Practical Arduino" as a local hacker publishing success
story. Last year, an emerging theme was that new (and affordable)
sources of innovation are required to bolster the more traditional
centres of innovation ... and more often than not, HackerSpaces around
the world were singled out as a potential engines for innovation.
I believe it is time to look for a permanent space (in the right
location) that will provide us with facilities for a couple of years
(minimum) ... taking into account potential growth over that time.
I've always believed that getting a good core of hackers, building non-
trivial things, and creating an excellent community culture were the
important starting points ... and I think that we've good a very
strong foundation for moving forward in 2010 (in the search for a
home).
> Then we could consider getting government funding. Ultimately a small paid staff to help with stores, OH&S and general help would be good.
Looking for government funding and industry sponsorship is something
we should tackle sooner (rather than later) ... to help offset
membership fees, so that the group can be more inclusive and afford
better premises, insurance, utilities, equipment, etc.
> So for me, going back on Andy's list from a couple of days ago - I think a location is number 1 priority, somewhere in the East of Melbourne.
Definitely agreed.
cheers andyg (@geekscape)
sco...@dd.com.au
So... roughly $1000 per month, or $250/week.
Not hugely expensive, but not cheap either...
But for that sort of price, you get something like 150 sqm
Raising money brain storm:
* Get funding now
- Government (State is more likely than federal - as they want to promote Melbourne more)
- Help from groups like OSDC, OSIA and MMV
* Get members now and charge yearly membership (e.g. $150 each / year?)
And I have already run out of ideas...
Scott
Brendan Lewis
arduino mega owner who never has time to fiddle.
1. MMV has specific funding packages to get groups dealing with
emerging technology areas up. However its never as simple as simply
applying. http://www.mmv.vic.gov.au/ICTLinkagesprogram
2. Is commercialising something that generates a revenue stream for
CCH out of the question? Commercialisation Australia may be worth a
pitch to get some seed capital. Owning your own revenue stream makes
you sustainable.
3. There may well be opportunity to JV with a University (Swinburne
likes advanced manufacturing) to get space which they have plenty of.
Perhaps NICTA would also be interesting people to talk to.
4. Rag tag groups don't get dealt with, an umbrella organisation makes
you tangible. I would recommend an incorporated association.
4. Don't be scared of membership fees.
Cheers
Brendan Lewis
e. ble...@l2i.com.au
m. 0412 039 495
t. @one_sock
s. brendanlewis24
michaelc
>
> Definitely agreed.
I could hardly disagree more on the topic of location. From the
perspective of public transport accessibility, the CBD or as close to
it as possible is ideal. Obviously car access is difficult or very
expensive (as is real estate) in the inner CBD, so close but not quite
in the city might be more practical. There is a lot more to Melbourne
than the Eastern suburbs, and if we limit ourselves to the East, then
anywhere other than the inner East (where commercial real estate is
very expensive) is an inconvenient location for anyone who doesn't
happen to live there.
If this were a purely commercial operation, our considerations might
be different. As things stand, finding an affordable site will be hard
enough without being overly picky about location. In other words, find
a suitable place at a manageable price first, then consider
accessibility (for everyone, including potential members), then
(probably after many other concerns) consider if it happens to be in a
suburb you like.
Michael
Scott Penrose
Unfortunately even trying to find something on a train line will make the price, I believe, unreachable.
Now the negative is out of the way, lets talk the positive.
* The above is my gut feel, and could be wrong :-) Although I have had experience in the space.
* Governement funding may be infact in a space, or more specifically something like North Melbourne Council (example only) may agree to provide a space to promote the location. Thus funding could be tied nicely into location.
In conclusion - Number one choice is CBD, Number two choice is to the East.
BTW. You mention here East is expensive, the reason I looked out East is a combination of the fact that industrial parks are much cheaper out east than inner city. Of course they are even cheaper West - but the people are just not there. I don't quite understand your first vs second paragraph though. First says should be CBD, second says pick a location we can afford first, but you said you can't disagree more... Maybe I missed the middle bit :-)
Of course... location or central hub should be challenged. E.g. my experience is that the majority of users are East, but I don't have the data to back that up.
Scott
Grant Diffey
http://www.rosshouse.org.au/
APARNA had their central hub there for a long time and they are very central
There is a mandate but I think we fit within it in areas such as community, education, environmental science power monitoring and management etc.
Just a thought.
Grant
Paul Szymkowiak
in terms of limiting "leg work". That's a consideration, but probably
not the first.
I spent a few months scouting locations for co-working, and I'd
suggest that by far the bigger concern would be facilities. If we can
drive to agreement on that - including items such public transport
connections and costs - I think we'll find that location will largely
take care of itself ...
Regards,
Paul
Michael Borthwick
On 02/02/2010, at 6:09 PM, Grant Diffey wrote:
> Have we considered potentially more accessable community spaces such
> as ross house?
>
> http://www.rosshouse.org.au/
>
> APARNA had their central hub there for a long time and they are very
> central
Do you mean APANA ? it must have worked out well for them they are
still using Amigas and running SLIP
Luke Weston
"What are its aims?
To give members access to the major networks that Australia and the
world participate in, the Internet in particular."
Wow, that's a bit of an anachronism.
Mitch Davis
>> > So for me, going back on Andy's list from a couple of days ago - I think a location is number 1 priority, somewhere in the East of Melbourne.
>>
>> Definitely agreed.
>
> I could hardly disagree more on the topic of location. From the
> perspective of public transport accessibility, the CBD or as close to
> it as possible is ideal.
I have another point of view here. A centrally located hackerspace
would be ideal (whatever that means) as long as there is only one
hackerspace in Melbourne.
Should our movement grow, and we get enough people from the rest of
Melbourne wanting to have a hackerspace (and why wouldn't they?), then
I think a central position will tend to make it harder to set up other
hackerspaces. This will constrain growth.
No-one wants to travel a million miles to get to their hackerspace
(hey, I heard that this was the reason Ben Balbo's moving back to
Melbourne, eh Ben?). So orgs like hackerspaces tend to have a natural
"feeder area" from which hackerspace members will be drawn. It's
simple cost of locality.
A central hackerspace will tend to suck in members from a large area
(and sub-optimally at that: Think of Jon in Croydon) and therefore it
would be very hard to set up other hackerspaces within 10km. The
critical mass just wouldn't be there to start a new one. Whereas if
we start off-centre (like we have at the moment), it's much easier for
other groups to form in their feeder areas (north, west, south)
without cannibalising each other. (And no, I'm not just looking to my
own needs, as I would be interested in travelling to other
hackerspaces, esp in order to help them get going).
Analogy of dubious merit: A central hackerspace would act like a large
star, clearing out all the material in a large area which may
otherwise go into the formation of smaller, more distributed stars.
So enough of the theorising, my two cents would be to keep it in the
east for the moment, but be ready to help groups get going in other
areas of Melbourne.
Mitch.
Scott Penrose
One thing I wanted to add. I have been involved in two hack labs in Melbourne CBD. One in Carlton and the other just near Melbourne Central.
Both just didn't get the night time numbers. Why is open for debate, but I have one theory:
Getting out of the city, or staying in the city in an evening is not desirable, often people want to go home first before going out. Many people travel PT to the city, but don't want to bring a car in after hours (no parking). As a guide, it takes me 45 minutes to drive into the city off peak, and 90 minutes on train and tram (yes I live past Hurstbridge). In general we found that most people did not live in the city, most people where happy to drive, and most lived to the North East. Again, this is not very good statistically and very anecdotal based on a small groups - but food for thought.
So ideally I think, based on the feedback, that we should aim (where money makes it possible) to be near a train line, but with car parking, but still between North to East.
What I am not clear on, is how we resolve this issue. It sounds obvious, we just take a survey, but we are already people more likely to be from the East (due to the existing location) so that is tricky.
Ahhh... man... all I can think of is more issues :-)
Keep up the discussion.
Scott
Evan
People might be a bit more widespread than you assume. I'm out in
Berwick for instance and I remember one other member (or visitor?) was
from Cranbourne - so personally I'd rather you went more South than
North. :-)
P.S. My copy of Practical Arduino has FINALLY arrived in the mail
today - waiting for me when I get home. Now I really have no excuse
not to get started on the humidity controller...
Hurgh
(and sub-optimally at that: Think of Jon in Croydon) and therefore it
Mitch Davis
> I'm out in
> Berwick for instance and I remember one other member (or visitor?) was
> from Cranbourne
Possibly Tim Serong?
What would be a good focal point for you and people in your area?
Dandenong? Might be a good place to pick up people in the outer
south-east, as well as the peninsula and the eastern growth
corridor...
> People might be a bit more widespread than you assume.
Yes. In trying to find one location to suit all, we may end up with a
solution which is sub-optimal for everyone.
Meanwhile, since we have an immediate need for a bunch of people who
live predominantly in the mid-east, that's where I will tend to look
at the moment.
Mitch.
Scott Penrose
> http://www.rosshouse.org.au/
It looks like we would fit, philosophically, but according to their Tenancy page, they have very limited space. One of our requirements I believe is to have a reasonable amount of space which we can leave setup - e.g. benches with equipment. A garage might seem small, but I suspect it is large compared to the office space at Ross House.
Scott
--
http://scott.dd.com.au/
sco...@dd.com.au
sco...@dd.com.au
Evan
> Dandenong?
Not central Dandenong itself, unless you enjoy being mugged. Hallam,
Hampton Park, Narre Warren would be better picks.
> Yes. In trying to find one location to suit all, we may end up with a
> solution which is sub-optimal for everyone.
Agreed.
> Meanwhile, since we have an immediate need for a bunch of people who
> live predominantly in the mid-east, that's where I will tend to look
> at the moment.
Also agreed. Your core group does seem to be in that area, so it makes
sense to take that into account while looking - just didn't want the
idea that moving further North was okay with everyone to go
unremarked.
E.
michaelc
people to be able to run multiple locations or groups would be a nice
problem to have. However we don't have that particular condition at
the moment, and it might never happen so it's probably not useful to
prematurely optimise around it.
Another thing to consider is how you would seed multiple groups based
on geographic region. The current group has evolved successfully due
to Andy's generosity and commitment in providing a location. If we
start out with an intentional geographical impediment with the hope
that this will provide more incentive for the founding of multiple
locations, this could backfire on us if there are no similar
benefactors to help seed other groups. At least with a location that
is as central as reasonably possible we can get a start with a
potentially larger member base, and split later if necessary. The
difficulty in achieving such a split is probably considerably less
than the difficulty in starting another group from scratch.
Michael
On Feb 3, 12:39 pm, Mitch Davis <m...@afork.com> wrote:
Jonathan Merritt
>> What I am not clear on, is how we resolve this issue. It sounds obvious, we just take a survey, but we are already people more likely to be from the East (due to the existing location) so that is tricky.
>
> People might be a bit more widespread than you assume. I'm out in
> Berwick for instance and I remember one other member (or visitor?) was
> from Cranbourne - so personally I'd rather you went more South than
> North. :-)
I'm in Werribee - and just about resigned to travelling great distances for anything interesting. It does limit how often I can attend meetings though.
The Eastern suburbs may be the best option anyway, since I think Melbourne's "population centroid" is east of the city (does anyone know?). I agree that we should be trying to attract people rather than assuming that other groups will form based upon geographic distribution.
Jonathan Merritt.
PS - I have to unleash my rampant cynicism: a HackerSpace group in the *Western* suburbs? ... ROTFLMAO. :-)
michaelc
> ...
>
> So ideally I think, based on the feedback, that we should aim (where money makes it possible) to be near a train line, but with car parking, but still between North to East.
>
We seem to be in agreement on the importance of proximity to public
transport and the value of car parking (at the very least for
loading). However I'm still strongly of the opinion that direction
relative to the city, be it North, East, South, or West, should be low
on our concerns and that prematurely constraining ourselves is counter
productive.
> What I am not clear on, is how we resolve this issue. It sounds obvious, we just take a survey, but we are already people more likely to be from the East (due to the existing location) so that is tricky.
>
Yes, I think you are quite right to point out that there could be a
strong bias in the current group due to its existing location. I don't
think preserving the status quo is necessarily good for the medium
term future of the group (though I will concede the possibility that
it could be), even if change causes less convenience to some
significant proportion of the current membership.
I don't think a survey is necessarily the right answer - this is an
issue that can be resolved more objectively, which will make the
inevitable inconvenience of a move (to at least some people - you can
never please them all) easier to swallow. With reasonably formed
quantifiable goals, we're more likely to get what we really want.
After all, you haven't proposed an Eastern suburbs location because
you just like the sound of it: there are reasons behind it so let's
address those reasons directly instead of trying to address the
suggested solution. I'll repeat here, in slightly expanded form, a
proposal I made last night:
1) Our goal is a good working space and the primary impediment to this
is cost. So let's start by setting a hard budget limit and reasonably
firm other criteria related to a property - e.g. amount of space,
availability of kitchen and bathroom, hours available, suitability to
machinery, etc. Make a list of all matching properties we can find
within a feasible distance of the city center (we can apply some
sensible judgment here) that meet our criteria. This will probably
already be a very short list. If by some miracle it's not, then
decrease the amount of rent we're willing to pay or decrease the
radius.
2) Recognise that access by public transport is critical and that
minimising transport time is likely to get us a wider membership
(which gets us the money that is unfortunately necessary to run the
show), so optimise for this next. For each property on the short list,
determine the average public transport trip time based on a start in
the city (including average wait times to account for train/tram
frequency) and sort the list in order of increasing time.
3) Pick the one at the top of the list. If there's no obvious winner,
then think about the other factors we could potentially apply. When it
comes down to making real choices I suspect there are plenty of
factors that we could imagine that will seem more important than which
side of the city we're on.
At Tuesday's meeting Michael J offered to co-ordinate a search and
Mitch offered to get involved in site visits. I've offered to do any
number crunching or other analysis required.
Michael Collas
michaelc
> > Yes. In trying to find one location to suit all, we may end up with a
> > solution which is sub-optimal for everyone.
>
> Agreed.
There's a different way of looking at this: the group is bigger than
the people in it (yes I know they are inextricably linked). In other
words a solution that happens to be sub-optimal in one sense (travel
time) for many people currently in the group is not necessarily sub-
optimal for the health of the group as a whole. Yes, some existing
members may have to travel further. But wouldn't that be a sacrifice
worth making if it enables a larger membership, more membership fee
revenue, more tools, more ideas, etc.? Another way of saying this is
that travel time for existing members (even if it includes many of
current members) might be a short term local optimisation that comes
at the expense of global optimisation. Those of us involved in
software know very well the dangers of considering optimisation only
at a local level.
>
> > Meanwhile, since we have an immediate need for a bunch of people who
> > live predominantly in the mid-east, that's where I will tend to look
> > at the moment.
>
> Also agreed. Your core group does seem to be in that area, so it makes
> sense to take that into account while looking - just didn't want the
> idea that moving further North was okay with everyone to go
> unremarked.
>
Still disagree, as per my comment above and in other posts. Though it
is good to hear an apparent consensus that North is not problematic.
Now all we have to do is make West, South, Up, and Down acceptable and
we'll have our options open again.
Michael
andyg (@geekscape)
> We seem to be in agreement on the importance of proximity to public transport ...
> I'll repeat here, in slightly expanded form, a proposal I made last night ...
Great to see some robust discussion on this topic !
I (humbly) suggest that before anyone commits another "n" minutes to
writing another email (which have perhaps nicely encapsulated all the
thoughts so far) ... that you instead consider spending that "n"
minutes using Google (Maps) to search for an actual premises ... or
make a phone call to a government department or local council or some
landlord with an empty property, or real estate agent, etc. Or, look
out the car, train, tram window or scan around on your push-bike on
the way home from work today and tomorrow and ..., just looking for
potential places. Get some prices and an address and a contact
number. We need hard data.
And, then email what you've seen ... or who you've called. Thanks !
Let's see who can come up with the most creative place :)
cheers andyg (@geekscape)
George Patterson
>
> Let's see who can come up with the most creative place :)
>
With bonus points for buzzword compliance? :-D
George
Paul Szymkowiak
looking for co-working spaces, I humbly suggest that looking for
spaces without having a clear set of minimal requirements isn't the
best use of considerable group effort at this stage.
For example, the first two questions most property agents will ask is
"how much space do you need?" and "what is your budget?". I also found
that expectation alignment between collaborators was needed.
That said, I think /some/ looking at available options helps inform
the requirements/ needs.
As I posted earlier, my thoughts align with Michael C: let's get
agreement on our minimum requirements, then start looking.
As a starter/ example, here's an extract from my co-working list -
both needs as well as wishes:
- public transport:
- close (5 min walk max)
- preferrably train.
- preferrably multiple public transport options (train plus tram)
- parking
- short-term parking for deliveries
- sufficient parking for members
- safe/ secure
- security
- secure/ safe premises
- secure/ monitored access
- lockable storage per member (could be built)
- amnenities
- toilet
- insulation
- plenty of power outlets
- heating/ cooling
- shower (for push-bike riders)?
- natural light plus artificial
- "zones"
- a noisy space for dremeling/ making
- a quiet space for coding
- a break-out space for group discussions/ preso's
- "vibe"
- preferably a warehouse or converted character building
- not an office
PS - if you'd like me to expand on my opening remarks, happy to do so.
Cheers,
Paul
Paul Szymkowiak
On 03/02/2010, at 14:55, "andyg (@geekscape)" <geek...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Let's see who can come up with the most creative place :)
>
> cheers andyg (@geekscape)
Luke Weston
locations, if we make a map of Melbourne and mark it with the
(approximate) living locations of all or most of those who are
interested in the HackerSpace at present. Such a visualisation could
be helpful.
This could take the form of a physical printed map, or something
whipped up using Google Maps or similar.
Tom Merry
so I decided to solve this problem.
on my website (to3000.org) there is a section called "hacker-space
places map". it is a embedded goggle map, with 4 text-box's
underneath.
labelled
-> your name (so you can take credit)
-> address (address of house/land/place/etc...)
-> long (use the google maps official site to get a longitude and a
latitude with 6 decimal places)
-> lat (use the google maps official site to get a longitude and a
latitude with 6 decimal places)
username and password
username = "hackers"
password = "spaces"
☢☢☢☢☢ DO NOT RELY ON THIS SITE ☢☢☢☢☢
i am not sure what's before beta but that's what this website is!!!
its a mostly copy and past job!!!
☢☢☢☢☢ DO NOT RELY ON THIS SITE ☢☢☢☢☢
if you make a mistake email me at
to3000(at)to3000.org
Michael
Michael (D)
Michael
suggested enumerating the possible solutions first (available
properties) and narrowing them down later. Others have suggested
generating all the necessary constraints first, and then checking if
any available properties satisfy these constraints. I suspect Andy's
approach will deliver more results quicker, but the other approach
will be more fun, due to the extra procrastination and technological
fooling around that it involves, and discussing hypotheticals is
always more enjoyable than getting in touch with dirty reality :)
(Unfortunately by writing this post I am contributing to the
procrastination, and being part of the problem!)
Michael (D -- to distinguish from other Michael)
Mitch Davis
> I have been following this thread and I was board with my home work,
> so I decided to solve this problem.
Nice one Tom!
I tried to put in my location details, but the next screen says:
Error: Duplicate entry '0' for key 'PRIMARY'
You might want to have a look at that.
BTW if you have a Google Map open, and you want to find the lat/long,
paste this into your address bar:
javascript:alert(window.gApplication.getMap().getCenter())
Mitch.
Jaymz Julian
> i am not sure what's before beta but that's what this website is!!!
alpha :)
--jj
--
Jaymz Julian - Coder, Visionary, Fat Ass.
"Hannibal is a serial killer. He only likes to kill and eat people.
Very few people have `I want to be killed and eaten' on their cards,
so Hannibal is out of a job." - http://cards.sf.net
Luke Weston
> Yes. In trying to find one location to suit all, we may end up with a
> solution which is sub-optimal for everyone.
>
To some extent, that's inevitable. You can't please all the people all
the time.
It's an optimisation problem.
Furthermore, the geographic distribution is not the only factor that
should go into this optimisation - availability of a suitable place,
the cost of that place, the suitability of that place, access to
public transport and parking are all also factors that should go into
that analysis.
Tom Merry
also i added a auto long/lat button, and when you double click on your
location the long/lat you get the same result.
best to also use the button when your about to submit.
On Feb 4, 9:35 am, Mitch Davis <m...@afork.com> wrote:
Tom Merry
Evan
click! :-)
E.
Tom Merry
Michael Joffe
Have a look at this place in North Melbourne and let me know what you
think?
http://www.creativespaces.net.au/archives/647
Mitch, if there is enough agreement, it might be interesting to visit
and get a feel for how appropriate it is?
Cheers,
Michael
On Feb 3, 12:47 pm, Scott Penrose <sco...@dd.com.au> wrote:
Paul Szymkowiak
michaelc
you, let me know because I might be able to slip out of work for half
an hour to go take a look.
Michael
hol...@netspace.net.au
> I think its worth checking out.
Isn't a bit small at 22 square metres ?
Cheers,
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au
Andy Gelme
hol...@netspace.net.au wrote:
> Isn't a bit small at 22 square metres ?
That is approx ... 4.7 m x 4.7 m.
By comparison, the current garage is 5 m x 6 m.
This does NOT include the odd piece at the end (filled with bits and
pieces), and doesn't include the cellar.
For well-attended meetings, we've often used the lounge as well ... and
have the garage door open, spilling into the drive-way.
I'd suggest that we'd need at least two rooms of at least 25 sq m (if
not more).
One room with a hard floor, for serious hardware activities.
The other room, a little more comfortable for quieter hacking,
discussion, etc ... that can support activities that won't be disrupted
by the noise, dust, fumes, etc ... coming from the "hard area".
Or, perhaps a single space that is 50 to 60 sq m, that could be divided
... might also work.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Whilst we are growing and do need more space ... that could be offset by
having 7 days access, which allows different groups to meet at
different times.
However, it would be far better to have a space that does cater for
larger meetings, so that the group isn't constantly fragmented along
project-lines.
For example, the Aiko-Gateway and Pebble build days had up-to 10 or 12
people at desks (squeezed in fairly tightly) all at the same time. That
is the maximum amount of people all working together in a 5 m x 6 m space.
Sure, other meetings have had more people squeezed into the garage, but
you'll find in those circumstances, many of them were standing and
watching others and not conducting their own hacking. And, often
spilling out into the lounge.
During a meeting, when there are two or three projects humming along,
e.g. CNC milling machine, 3D printer, rocket, ... you'll find the space
vanishes very quickly ... and there is a *lot* of contention for various
equipment, notably the soldering station (electronics workbench) (it
would be nice to have room for two ... there is often contention for the
soldering iron and laboratory power supply).
Also, the current garage has minimal equipment to support the group.
What happens when we need to have permanent space set aside for tools
that we are building, e.g. CNC milling machine and 3D printers and more
... each of which will need dedicated PCs / laptops, etc. Just like in
the current garage, there is the dedicated PC workstation ... that is
barely large enough to also have the 3D printer next to it, when
MichaelJ brings it.
I believe that 22 sq m ... just isn't going to work ... unless the
HackerSpace meetings consist of less then 6 to 8 people doing stuff at
the same time.
--
-O- cheers = /\ /\/ /) `/ =
--O -- http://www.geekscape.org --
OOO -- an...@geekscape.org -- http://twitter.com/geekscape --
Hurgh
Mitch Davis
>
> Have a look at this place in North Melbourne and let me know what you
> think?
>
> http://www.creativespaces.net.au/archives/647
>
> Mitch, if there is enough agreement, it might be interesting to visit
> and get a feel for how appropriate it is?
I'm up for a look. 22sqm is a bit tight though.
Others have said they'd like a look too. When's a good time?
Mitch.
Ben Stringer
>
> hol...@netspace.net.au wrote:
>> Isn't a bit small at 22 square metres ?
>
> That is approx ... 4.7 m x 4.7 m.
>
> By comparison, the current garage is 5 m x 6 m.
>
> This does NOT include the odd piece at the end (filled with bits and
> pieces), and doesn't include the cellar.
>
> For well-attended meetings, we've often used the lounge as well ... and
> have the garage door open, spilling into the drive-way.
>
> I'd suggest that we'd need at least two rooms of at least 25 sq m (if
> not more).
>
> One room with a hard floor, for serious hardware activities.
I'm aware of this property that has just become available, because my
daughter's taekwondo school used to use it. It is huge (just under 400 m2)
and has a large inside area (currently with rubber mats, but would be
concrete underneath), and also a foyer area of about 20-30 m2.
http://www.realcommercial.com.au/cgi-bin/rsearch?a=o&id=5609949&fmt=&header=&s=vic&t=com
It's in Patterson road Bentleigh, right next to Patterson station. I gave
the agent a call - annual lease is $40k + GST + outgoings.
As well as the public transport, there is a good coffee shop across the
road and a bakery next door, for hack-snacks.
Not sure what the hackerspace budget runs to for a venue - but I suspect
this may be at the high end.
Cheers, Ben
andyg (@geekscape)
On Feb 8, 11:08 am, "Ben Stringer" <b...@burbong.com> wrote:
> It's in Patterson road Bentleigh, right next to Patterson station. I gave
> the agent a call - annual lease is $40k + GST + outgoings.
>
> Not sure what the hackerspace budget runs to for a venue - but I suspect
> this may be at the high end.
I suspect that is at least twice as expensive as we could currently
consider.
Our yearly budget also has to cover other running costs ... utilities,
equipment, supplies and furnishing.
cheers andyg (@geekscape)
Scott Penrose
The cheaper end of locations seems to be around $22,000.
Make that $30,000 with utilities, insurance, etc.
That is $2500 per month.
If we get 30 people to pay monthly fees (and that is a tall order, 30 people full time, every month is a lot to pay), then you are up for $83 each per month - or almost $1000 per year.
Can't speak for the rest of you but that is too much money for me.
I think... speaking out loud and assuming the lab is in a location I can get to etc... that I could afford perhaps $500 per year.
Which means we need one of:
* Lots more people
* Sponsorship (money)
* Sponsorship (location)
* Shared space with another group
Bricks and Morta are expensive.
Scott
sco...@dd.com.au
art and drama only. Has that changed?
Scott Penrose
http://scott.dd.com.au/
On 08/02/2010, at 14:01, michaelc <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The cheaper end of locations seems to be around $22,000.
>
> 20K is about what my initial check last year suggested too, even for
> some unattractive options. Artist studio kind of places seemed
> cheaper, but often not suitable. That's why the convent sounded like
> such a great deal. How much were they asking again (Michael J, Andy)?
>
> Michael C
>
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Clifford Heath
and asking if they have a spare room you could use for storage?
Many scout groups have changed size from their inception and
may have a spare room - for example a Rover den but they no
longer have any Rovers. They'll have plenty of space to unpack
into and typically they'll also have some trestle tables and chairs,
etc.
I think it might be the only financially viable option for you, barring
some rich benefactor.
Clifford Heath.
Mitch Davis
> Have you guys thought about approaching a local scout group
> and asking if they have a spare room you could use for storage?
I think that's a really good idea.
Mitch.
George Patterson
Sorry Mitch, I'm not so convinced.
It needs to be more than storage as moving around heavy equipment such
as drill presses and bench space is out of the question.
The Scout hall where Melbourne Wireless in Auburn(???) meets has a
small storage area but even if emptied wouldn't give you enough space
to swing a cat.
On the other hand, a Hall which has been mothballed, that might be
appropriate. Though we would need to put down something to protect the
floor if it's not a concrete slab.
Regards
George
Scott Penrose
Scott
> --
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sco...@dd.com.au
Scott Penrose
----- "George Patterson" <george.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Mitch Davis <m...@afork.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 6:02 PM, Clifford Heath
> <cliffor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Have you guys thought about approaching a local scout group
> >> and asking if they have a spare room you could use for storage?
> >
> > I think that's a really good idea.
> >
> > Mitch.
> >
>
> Sorry Mitch, I'm not so convinced.
>
> It needs to be more than storage as moving around heavy equipment
> such
> as drill presses and bench space is out of the question.
>
> The Scout hall where Melbourne Wireless in Auburn(???) meets has a
> small storage area but even if emptied wouldn't give you enough space
> to swing a cat.
As an example to refute that (as it really depends), my scout hall had 4 double office size rooms at each end - mostly fully of junk. Easy enough to have all the permanent equipment, and just pull out in the main hall for projection and big build days.
Lots of local halls have space, it is all dependent on the generosity of the council/shire usually.
Scott
Mitch Davis
>
>> Sorry Mitch, I'm not so convinced.
>>
>> It needs to be more than storage as moving around heavy equipment
>> such
>> as drill presses and bench space is out of the question.
>>
>> The Scout hall where Melbourne Wireless in Auburn(???) meets has a
>> small storage area but even if emptied wouldn't give you enough space
>> to swing a cat.
How appropriate: wireless is all about "no cat" :-)
> As an example to refute that (as it really depends), my scout hall had 4 double office size rooms at each end - mostly fully of junk. Easy enough to have all the permanent equipment, and just pull out in the main hall for projection and big build days.
We're already setting up and putting away our tables every meeting
without drama. For build days, the majority of work has been done at
trestles. I don't see this as a limitation. And if the worst
consequence is we have to get two people on the drill press from time
to time, then I'd think that a small price to play for a place which
might be fantastic in every other sense.
(I'm not trying to prune our options, just engaging in the discussion
of options)
Mitch.
Pete Yandell
We certainly need a big space for the full meetups.
But most of the time it won't be everyone there, and we won't need as
much space. And there's only a certain amount of heavy gear that needs
permanent space.
If we go with that model, the obvious option is somewhere with a hall,
and then a secure room which we can have permanently. We can set up
the permanent gear in the secure room, and lock it when we're not
around. Then we can expand into the hall with trestle tables, etc.
when we have a big meet.
It's not ideal, but it certainly might be a cheap option if somewhere
like that comes up.
- Pete
Mitch Davis
> If we go with that model, the obvious option is somewhere with a hall,
> and then a secure room which we can have permanently. We can set up
> the permanent gear in the secure room, and lock it when we're not
> around. Then we can expand into the hall with trestle tables, etc.
> when we have a big meet.
Sounds not unlike what Tripoli do...
Mitch.
Luke Weston
>
> > As an example to refute that (as it really depends), my scout hall had 4 double office size rooms at each end - mostly fully of junk.
But such a room(s) would need to accommodate our use of it and also
still store their stuff.
>
> We're already setting up and putting away our tables every meeting
> without drama. For build days, the majority of work has been done at
> trestles. I don't see this as a limitation. And if the worst
> consequence is we have to get two people on the drill press from time
> to time, then I'd think that a small price to play for a place which
> might be fantastic in every other sense.
>
But the whole point of getting a permanent location is that it's a
permanent location - and it allows us to escape the limitations of a
non-permanent location such as the garage, and keep the tables and
stuff set up appropriately.
We don't want to pay a significant amount of money for something which
is just a glorified version of the garage, with the same limitations.
It is really supposed to be a dedicated space, accessible and useable
as a HackerSpace 24/7.
What I think we need to do is draw up a list of requirements (it must
be at least x amount of area, it should ideally be a workshop or
warehouse type space suited for semi-industrial work, it should be
within y radius of the CBD and it should be less than a certain
monetary cap of z; for example) and then once we've got that list of
requirements, start hitting up real estate agents asking if they might
have something suitable.
Paul Szymkowiak
Scott Penrose
On 09/02/2010, at 2:06 AM, Luke Weston wrote:
>
>>
>>> As an example to refute that (as it really depends), my scout hall had 4 double office size rooms at each end - mostly fully of junk.
>
> But such a room(s) would need to accommodate our use of it and also
> still store their stuff.
Sorry, my point was, there was no use for the rooms, so full of junk. They could have used just 2 rooms - one for storage, the other for the leaders office.
This happened in another near us, where one room became the local model rail club.
> But the whole point of getting a permanent location is that it's a
> permanent location - and it allows us to escape the limitations of a
> non-permanent location such as the garage, and keep the tables and
> stuff set up appropriately.
> We don't want to pay a significant amount of money for something which
> is just a glorified version of the garage, with the same limitations.
> It is really supposed to be a dedicated space, accessible and useable
> as a HackerSpace 24/7.
Like so much in life, it is half way in between.
We need/want a permanent location where we can setup equipment and desks. But this does not need to be our maximum size. I think there should be enough space for projects to remain in place. Leave large equipment (the example drill press) but still be able to expand on the large days. To have enough space for the large days all the time, would mean we end up paying for space we don't use 99% of the year (counting 7 days a week here).
24/7 access, all those things are a given. Of course this is also easy at halls, although some (our local hall in Panton Hill) does not have access to the rooms from outside, only through the hall, which would be a problem if there was an event on.
It seems like you are rejecting a good idea without really understanding an individual location. Many locations would meet your (our) requirements, so lets reject them after they don't meet this, and not jump to the wrong conclusion. Councils, Halls, Community Centres, Community Houses - these are places that are hired by pottery clubs and other similar groups around the world, and there fees are low - we need to take their example and apply it to us. How different are we than a local pottery group? They need even more space than us.
Scott