Assistance with Jobs on C28

[mm]

Dear colleagues

After a prolonged period away from the boat with major health issues, she is coming out for antifouling next week, and I have several jobs I want to get done to tidy her up over the coming months.

1. Auto bilge pump - do I tap into the existing manual bilge pump system or do I get another fitting put into the boat, specifically for the new automatic pump?  Any preferred brands/models for the pump?  Routing tips for the wiring and hose?

2. Re-varnishing internal timber - what product would you recommend for re-varnishing the interior timber?

3. Re-finishing bilge cover boards - what product would you recommend for re-finishing the bilge cover boards with the goals of providing protection and maximising grip?

4. Stains on internal gelcoat - where I can't remove stains from internal gelcoat, should I paint or re-gelcoat?  Recommended products?

5. Windows - I did some research on replacing the windows before I fell ill and had settled on the use of the 3M tape rather than drilling and screwing new windows on.  Has anyone got any newer information on the best option for replacing the windows, which are in a poor state and leaking.

6. Dorados - looking for some ideas on design, construction and fitting of dorados to the current locations that have simple mushroom fittings.  I have a workshop at home with a good range of woodworking tools.

Thanks colleagues.  I look forward to your collective wisdom helping me avoid poor decisions going forward with these jobs.

Michael

0419 638 344

[Mando C29]

Hello Michael,

I may be able to assist you (or offer suggestions) with a few of your points.

1. I'm assuming that your current manual bilge pump (whaler) discharges water out through the transom.

Most probably not a bad idea to leave all that alone and fit a new discharge point along side.

A couple of questions: Do you normally ever get water in the boat? When would you likely get water in the boat

or this only in case you have a failure of a fitting etc? If a failure occurred and you were not there, is there any way 

some sort of an alarm would be heard by near-by boaties or residents?
The reason I'm asking this is my boat only ever had a manual bilge pump. Checking for water in the bilge was one of my pre start checks. If there was water in the bilge, I would want to know where it came from and why. If you did have a failure and you weren't there, an auto pump would only run until the battery went flat !

If you feel more comfortable having one, there are 2 options. One, seperate pump and switch-this allows you to mount the pump low as you can then mount the switch at a height that you best see fit. Option 2 is a combination 

switch and pump. The best brand is Rule (American). The pump must be readily accessible so that the filter can be cleaned on a regular basis. All connections in that area should be soldered joints with glue filled heat shrink over them. Wiring for the pump should by-pass the Master Isolator so that it is the only thing "alive" when you leave the boat. Therefore, make sure this wiring is Marine Grade 4mm twin in convoluting tube with lots of fixings so that is well and truly out of the road of ever being damaged!

I think I've banged on enough on this one, I can answer more of your questions if you like!

Regards,

Maurice.

[Maeling]

Thanks Maurice, always willing to take serious professional advice.  I must check Maeling for water in the low sump I have.  Sobering that a major leak could overcome the battery feeding the auto - pump - then it all goes to the bottom!!

Geoff

[mm]

Hi Maurice

Thank you for the thoughtful questions.  The boat has taken on water twice during periods of sustained illness and inability to get to the boat.  The first time we identified the primary source as the seal on the propeller shaft and had it replaced.

The second instance was recent, and I don't know if I can identify a single source for the water ingress. There are a number of sources that appear to have contributed to the ingress, windows, hatch seals, blocked scuppers in the cockpit.

Whilst I am now more mobile and keen to use the boat regularly and bring it up to a solid standard, addressing the potential water ingress points noted above, I was considering the value of having the extra capability of the automatic pump.

My manual pump feeds through the hull on the port side near the stern.

More food for thought.

Michael

[Mando C29]

Hello Michael,

Good on you for trying to bring the boat up to a reasonable standard (it's worth it) and fingers crossed for good luck 

with your health issues!!

If you are concerned that you may get a water leak (and not know about it) whilst sailing , the Rolls Royce job is to fit 2 bilge switches. One for the pump out and the second , slightly higher , that's wire to an alarm. 

I am happy to send you a schematic on how this should be wired and cable sizes etc. Those small electronic "beepers" make a huge racket and are not expensive.

Re the best materials for inside the boat, Geoff R would be the man for this (had lots of experience).

Re windows (bloody windows), there have been numerous threads over the past. The golden rule is "cheap is dear"

and if Geoff can dig those up, I'm sure you would get some good ideas.

Re the stains, there is a cleaning product call " Gumption" which comes in the form of a white paste. With a good dolop of elbow grease you may find that this will remove a lot of the stains. Re gel coating or re painting (in my opinion) would be a last resort as there is a lots that can go wrong!

Not sure what you mean by "Dorados"? Sounds like a Mexican Taco!! Maybe down south we call it something different.

See how you go,

Cheers,

Maurice.

[mm]

Hi Maurice

I would certainly appreciate the wiring diagram and specifications.  I may not decide to go ahead with it, but will be good to have the information on hand if I do.

Hopefully Geoff will chip in with the internal finishing recommendations as you suggest.

The 'Dorados' was a silly typo which I didn't pick up until I had posted the conversation and couldn't work out how to edit it.  What I meant was Dorades, the combination of a revolving entry device or vent mounted to a box with internal baffles and a shaft coming up from within the boat to stimulate airflow and prevent water from entering the cabin.  I've found a couple of basic examples online which I could adapt.  With the hatches closed and the two basic mushroom air vents closed, it quickly becomes a great environment for mold.

Thanks again for the support, it is very much appreciated.

Michael

[David Grigg]

Hi Michael,

My 10c worth;

Re bilge pumps, I have a manual set up much as you describe, and an electric pump with independent piping parallel with the manual system. There is just enough room to run one discharge pipe either side of the stern tube. The pipe for the electric system has an anti-siphon loop just before (separately) discharging through the hull on the port quarter. The electric pump has an internal float switch and a 2 way switch for auto or manual control. The pump is wired direct to the battery (with fuse) so it can be left on auto when the battery isolation switch is off. I was tempted to put in a non return valve after the pump to prevent water in the pipe running back into the bilge, but collective advice suggests not doing this. Less to go wrong/ get blocked I guess. 

Having said all this it rarely gets used now except when deliberately flooding the bilge to clean it. The biggest contributors to water in the bilge were a dripping propshaft seal, leaking stanchion bases and blocked forehatch drains, but i have fixed these now and the bilge stays dry, or only enough to get with a small sponge. I haven't had too much of an issue with windows. They do weep a bit though.

Re dorade vents I would be reluctant to add anything that will stick up on deck. More to foul the mainsheet or stub toes. I have a low profile solar vent in the centre of the coachhouse roof which is still going after 5 years. I never open the mushroom vents as they are begging to get broken off if left open. I found that my mould problems pretty much disappeared once I addressed the leaks anyway. 

Re interior varnish I've used a satin water-based polyurethane which is still looking good after a year in the tropics now. I didn't go gloss as this shows up all the imperfections more.

Regards

David

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[mm]

Hi David

Thank you.  Some great advice to help me make the decisions I need to make as quickly and decisively as possible.

I'm looking forward to finally getting the boat into a nice, clean, sharp-looking state.  I am concerned I have several points of ingress for water which are going to take some time to identify and eliminate.

Michael

[Maeling]

Where to start? The ventilation starts at the anchor locker, I have a 75mm cowl vent on the hatch lid. On the cabin roof, I have 2  x 75mm cowls (port and stbd) and aft on the cockpit surround, a 75mm Cowl.  I forgot the 75mm hole and a screw in bung between the forecabin and anchor locker.  My theory is, at anchor a draft comes in the cockpit cowl and through the two saloon vents with the anchor locker hatch vent. The boat is always sweet smelling  This hex pic is the cleaning hole in the forepeak to allow cleaning.  I keep this tank empty, for the day we go on a long cruise and don't want fibreglass tasting water.  The galley rack set up is from another C29 - apologies, I'm short on time to get the titles right. and doesn't use any power

[mm]

Hi Geoff

Thank you for taking the time to provide your advice.  You have certainly established a comprehensive approach to keeping fresh air flowing through the boat.

I will have the boat at the marina in Lake Macquarie for about a week after the antifouling to get as much done as I can.  I am aiming to put together the ideas shared here into a plan and make sure I have a clear workflow thought out for each job and all materials on hand so no time is wasted.

Thanks again to all who have provided their collective wisdom to the project.  It is very much appreciated.

Michael

[Maeling]

Good on you, what is your boat's name?

Geoff

[mm]

Hi Geoff

My C28 was named Bittersweet when I bought it, and although not loving the name, I decided to leave well enough alone.

Bittersweet is normally on a swing mooring in Cockle Bay, a quiet little bay, one across from Marmong Point, where Empire Marina is.

With maintenance and insurance costs rising pretty rapidly, and me stumbling into retirement, I'm not sure how long I will be able to keep the dream alive.  At least she will be in a better state than when I got her for the next owner, when that fateful day comes.

Michael

[mm]

Interesting that I was able to purchase three rolls of the 3M tape for the window replacement from the UK and have it delivered to my home in under a week.  Very hard to source in Australia without a long wait or having to buy a box of 10 rolls.

Can anyone suggest a practical workflow for removing the old aluminium/glass windows?

Michael

[mm]

The tape recommended in the videos I watched, and an article I found a few years ago online, is 3M VHB 5952F.  The edges of the new window are then sealed with Dow 795 sealant.  I was advised by one of the distributors of the 3M tape in Australia to try to keep a gap between the tape and the edge sealant as the two chemical structures may interact over time.

I purchased the polycarbonate sheet for the windows yesterday from Mulford Plastics in Mayfield for $350 and I'm going out to trace the existing windows onto plastic sheet this morning.  I will need to remove one of the windows to check the distance between the window cutout and the edge of the old frames to see if there is enough space for the tape and sealer or whether I need to make the windows a bit larger to allow enough room for both.

Michael

[mm]

Templates for the large and small windows on the C28 made from plastic purchased from Officeworks.  Stuck the plastic to the side of the boat and traced around the window frame as well as I could, kneeling on the marina, then tidied it up with my old geometry tools and added 10mm all round at home.

The team at Endeavour Marine, based at Empire Marina at Lake Macquarie use the same technique with the 3 VHB tape and Dow 795 sealer and one of the guys came down to the boat and talked me through their process.  They generously offered to sell me a few tubes of the Dow 795 sealer which took them 8 months to source from the US.  I couldn't find it anywhere in the Hunter region or beyond.  Very rare to see such thoughtfulness and generosity of spirit.

Start pulling the old windows out over the weekend.  Will probably put temporary covers on initially and fit the new windows one at a time.  You can't use the 3M tape over 25 degrees celsius so I will only be able to work early in the mornings.

Happy to share the templates if anyone else decides to have a go at their windows.

Michael

[mm]

Starboard side windows done.  Hopefully get the port side done before 28 December when I'm due to head back to the swing mooring.

I also need to correct an earlier error.  It was Josh and Murdoch at On Point Shipwright group that were extremely helpful with the window replacement strategy and taking the risk to sell me three tubes of Dow 795 out of stock, after waiting 8 months for it to arrive.

The windows make a significant difference to the look of the boat, as well as addressing some substantial leaks, and I'm pleased I decided to take it on.

I bought a full sheet of polycarbonate and have enough left to make another set of eight windows if anyone is interested.  If you have the same old windows that I had I'd be happy to cut them from the templates I made.

Michael

[MrSeaDragon]

Wow, Great job Michael !! Well done. I do find that its well worth doing a bit of research and doing things yourself !!

Just to clarify my understanding of your process, The 3M tape goes between the fiberglass and the overlap of the polycarbonate and its job is to hold the windows on, and the 795 "edge sealant" goes around the edge to stop the water coming in, and you've kept the 3M tape a bit in from the edge so they don't interact ?? And I guess you used the 795 specifically, because it is good with polycarbonate ?

Did you need to use a primer with either the tape or the sealant ??

I love seeing it when folks have a go at doing good work on their boats themselves. Congratulations !

Kind regards,

Greg.

C29 - SeaDragon

[Mando C29]

Michael,

Well done with your windows. Just how much overlap did the polycarbonate have over the window cutout?

I noticed that the North Shore 27 that I sail on has a similar set-up.

When I played with mine years ago, I used the rubber seal method which is fine providing all the cutouts were 

the same! Mine weren't! This system is a much more reliable method. I'm assuming that the tape (if that's all that's

holding the poly on) is not likely to let go with time and weather. Would the odd screw be a good idea?

Good luck with your ongoing battles,

Cheers,

Maurice. 

[Maeling]

Michael, What caught my attention was the possibility of a blocked cockpit drain.  That would be serious in heavy raid.  You really need a broom handle to push the crud down and out .  You could use bamboo or garden hose .  Check the forehatch - way is draining onto the deck
Geoff - Maeling

[mm]

Hi Greg

The 3M tape is attached around the periphery of the window cutout.  I allowed 25mm for the 15mm tape and 10mm for the 795 sealer when calculating the window size.

I used calipers and a pencil to provide sufficient dots to align the windows evenly over the cutout.  The cutouts were similar in size but not identical.  These calculations worked well. It is very difficult to see if you are maintaining a slight gap between the 3M tape and the 795.  It is worth trying, as this was recommended by the 3M rep I spoke to when trying to source the tape.

I didn't use primer.  The process I followed was a hybrid of my own ideas and those recommended by the shipwright at the marina and goes something like this:

1. Ensure all silicone and any other contaminants are carefully removed from the area in which the new windows will be located. Leave slightly roughed up to help with bonding (Razor blade, acetone and sandpaper).
2. Mark dots on the cabin in pencil to help locate the new window correctly.
3. Mark dots on the cabin in pencil a further 10mm out to help with masking for the application of the 795.
4. Remove protective coating from internal side of new window.
5. Use sandpaper to slightly rough up the surface of the side of the window to be attached to the boat - 25mm around the periphery of the polycarbonate.
6. Clean window with Isopropyl alcohol.
7. Fit the 3M tape to the periphery of the window cutout.
8. Carefully align the new window to the dot markers and press home.  Apply firm pressure for a few minutes to create initial bond.  Some people use blocks underneath the window to support it at the right height.  Others use strong tape 'hinges' to hold the window in place ready for pressing into place.  One of these options would be a must do for larger windows.
9. Use the dot markers to apply masking tape prior to application of 795.  You need to take your time to ensure the masking tape follows the curves of the window.
10. Apply the 795 using standard gun, striving for steady movement and material flow.
11. Use the 10mm coving tool to smooth and shape the 795.
12. Spray the new seal with soapy water and use your finger to do the final smoothing of the seal.
13. Remove masking tape.
14. Remove protective plastic from external side of new window.
15. Wash clean with soapy water.

This is just where I ended up after research and consultation with shipwright but I would suggest doing your own homework if you decide to have a go.

Geoff

The cockpit drains were blocked due to the time my health issues kept me off the boat.  When I was ready to start work on the boat I sent a diver to do an initial clean in preparation for taking her to the marina.  There was also material in the drain tubes in the forehatch.  I will also be fitting a new seal around this hatch.  The base of the hatch located over the main cabin area was fabricated using plywood and is poor condition, definitely contributing to the ingress of water.  I am considering fabricating my own but need to work out how to model the multiple curves required for a sound, water tight fit.  The hatch itself is not in great condition but should be ok to re-use.

Maurice

Time and the marine environment are certainly not our friend, but the shipwright, with over 40 years experience, and their 'gun' window guy, is very comfortable with the effectiveness and longevity of this system.

Picture of similar set I used to do the initial profiling of the 795.

[mm]

Hi Anthony, responses in two emails.  System keeps telling me it's too long so I will split it.

I wouldn’t mind taking you up on your template offer if that’s ok.

Email your address to - m...@mmurray.com.au

What was the actual window material you used, and what did you find the best cutting method? 

I used 6mm tinted polycarbonate.  It is a common material and should be readily available.

I used a tracksaw with a fine cut blade to cut the straight sections.  Need to move slowly.  Starting the cut also needs to be done carefully.  I cut the curves with a reasonable quality jigsaw with a fine metal cutting blade.  I cut to the outside of the line, leaving enough clear space to tidy up on a disk sander.  This process worked well for me.

I would assume all the window openings would be the same out of the mould for the C28s, mine was built in 1978.

One for Geoff??

How did you go about getting the old aluminium frames out ?

I drilled out the rivets on the inside. I then used a screwdriver to prise the inner ring off. I used a reasonable quality, sturdy box cutter (lots of fresh blades on hand) to break the seal on the outside frame.  There was a lot of silicon on mine.

I then used a small screwdriver to carefully prise the metal frame free of the cabin in a small area.  I then used a pair of large screwdrivers to work my way around the frame, gradually prising it free of the cabin, tapping them between the frame and the cabin carefully, with pressure outward toward the metal frame to avoid damaging the cabin surface.  The first becomes the gap holder as you move a small distance and tap in the second screwdriver - rinse and repeat.  I found I could tap the screwdriver down a substantial portion of the side sections successfully, reducing the time taken.  With the top and two sides freed up, I was able to pull the window out, releasing the bottom section in the process.  Obviously difficult to get much into that space at the bottom of the frame.

I removed the second set of windows today, using a sturdy Kingchrome scraper from Bunnings, which did a much, much better job clearing the silicone and any other contaminants from around the window than the cheap one I used on the first set.  I then used a cycle of acetone, scraper, and sanding block to ensure there were no remaining contaminants.  I asked the shipwright at the marina to check my first set, and he was happy to sign off on them as ready to go.

[mm]

[mm]

[mm]

Finished the port side windows today.  Certainly transforms the look of the boat, with many regular passers by at the marina commenting on the improvement.

Took me 4 hours to remove the four old windows and clean up the external area ready for the new material.  With my son helping with the fitting of the new windows it took 2.5 hours to fit the new ones.

Creating the additional templates to guide placement of the masking tape made fitting the port side windows noticeably faster than the starboard set.

Recommend 4 rolls of 3M VHB 5952F tape and 3 tubes of Dow 795

Michael

[Maeling]

She is looking great, a job well done!

Geoff Raebel

[mm]

Friends, my next challenge while I still have some time left at the marina is the central hatch structure.  The current base, a timber structure is badly decayed and leaking.  I am wondering about the best strategy to replace it.  Should I try to source some teak and build the frame with it and simply varnish/oil it, or fabricate a structure in marine ply and seal it in fibreglass?

What depth of penetration should I be planning for to attach the hatch base to the cabin?  I'm assuming stainless steel screws and timber plugs if I go with the teak option.

Whilst the hatch itself is not in great shape I think it should clean up ok.

Look forward to your thoughts.

Michael

[Maeling]

Michael, It's been a year - how did you go with all your jobs on the C29?  Did you cruise anywhere?  Did you have fun?

Geoff Raebel - Sydney

[Maeling]

Let's make it a round-table chat

Geoff

[mm]

Hi Geoff

Work is progressing slowly as my post stroke work capacity in the heat is not what it used to be.  Update below ...

The new vents are in and making a difference keeping the air fresher and dryer.

The windows are in and both look good and are working as intended.  Bonus is that I can actually see out! (Templates available assuming all window cutouts are similar).  Happy to have a chat to anyone on the phone about this job - 0419 638 344.

Most of the key ropes have been replaced ready to go sailing again.

Bracket on the back of the boom which had broken into two pieces replaced.

External timber with multiple coats of teak oil, looking good again.

Cabin hatch and all internal storage area covers remade in marine ply, just about to be varnished.

Plan of attack worked out and materials purchase to replace timber base for central cabin hatch.

All items purchased for engine service.

Initial internal clean and mold treatment done - major stains in gelcoat yet to be tackled.

All small dings marked out ready for repair.

Solar charging regulators purchased to replace existing units, one of which has failed.

Cushion covers removed and currently soaking ready for wash and return to boat.

I will probably pay for another week at the marina, which will exhaust the available funds so I can get as much done as possible within my current physical constraints.

Another task that I will need to do as soon as practicable is to reseat the stanchions.  I am pretty sure at least of couple of them are leaking.

Thanks again to all those who have offered support, it is very much appreciated.

[Mando C29]

Hello Michael,

For a bloke who has had "health issues" you certainly have achieved a great deal!! Well done.

I'm now at the stage where my flexibility is approaching 0% so boat work very limited even though I still get roped into electrical jobs!

One correction I need to make re bilge pumps-I said I only had a manual pump on my boat, what I needed to clarify

was that I only had a manual electric pump not an automatic set-up.

Good luck with all your sailing and best wishes,

Regards,

Maurice.

[Maeling]

Michael, well done!

With my bilge pump (Auto) from memory I fitted a 1/2" Automatic pump as low as I could on a piece of 1/4" ally plate (sinker to hold the pump down) The pump exit feeds aft and exits via 1/2" irrigation pipe well aft (Stbd) just below the toe rail.  Make sure that the pump outlet is a high as possible to prevent back flooding

Geoff

[mm]

Thanks Geoff and Maurice for the additional information on the bilge pump strategy.  I am still considering my options for this job.  With being at the boat in the marina through a couple of hot, dry weeks I know that all the hull fittings are sound, as no water whatsoever got into the bilge during this period.

Maurice, I definitely relate to the flexibility issue!  There are an increasing number of things I just can't do anymore.  Lots of creaking and groaning.

Rain at the moment making it difficult to progress the hatch replacement as I don't want to get caught with a big hole in the top of the boat in a sudden deluge!  Also making it difficult to varnish all the new timber parts as I don't have a big enough indoor space to do the job.

Will progress some of the other jobs on the list as I wait for the weather to settle.

Michael

[Maeling]

Michael, how did you work program last year go?

I am working on detailing Maeling.  I had found a canvas guy in Kirrawee (Sydney) - then he disappeared!

Geoff 

[mm]

Hi Geoff

Apologies for the slow response.  I am currently working on the central hatch.  I struggled through the heat a couple of days ago to remove it and I now have to tidy up the deck to repair some damage caused during the removal.  Once that's done I will build a new base.  Tracing the curves of the deck will be critical in getting this step right.  The actual hatch unit is a bit tired but still serviceable so I will clean it up and re-use it.

I'm hoping to get the internal timber sanded and stained and the internal fibreglass scrubbed as clean as I can get before I have to head back to the swing mooring on Sunday afternoon.

I will book another week around April keep the restoration work moving.  The heat has really taken its toll.

What are you looking to get made out of canvas?  Hopefully you can locate another supplier soon.

I also wanted to mention that I have a sheet of tinted 6mm polycarbonate large enough for a full set of windows if any of the members would like to claim it.

Michael

[MrSeaDragon]

Hi Michael, 

Sounds like your tidy up is going well, despite the heat.

I'd be interested in the polycarbonate if its still available, and depending on where you are 😊. I'm in the early stages of a hard dodger. Can you give me the size of the sheet and I'll see if it will be big enough. Thanks. 

Kind regards,

Greg

C29 Sea Dragon

[Maeling]

To preserve Maeling's above-deck teakwork, I have made a canvas cover to stop sun damage to the deck vent hatch and lines on deck and teak Dorade water separateing vents.  

To be honest, I am getting ready to sell her.

 She also has a very low hour Beta 16 Diesel using freshwater cooling via a heat exchanger and has a sump tray under the engine to collect any spilt oil.  The two-pack paint on the mast and boom have stayed in really good condition. 

The saloon table is coppered Laminex with a map of the world, somewhere on it there is an 18th Century date

I am interested in any offers

Regards

Geoff Raebel
 

[mm]

Hi Greg

I will measure the remaining sheet and email the dimensions here.  I live in Seaham, which is near Raymond Terrace.

Michael

[mm]

Hi Greg

The remaining poly sheet is a touch over 1200x1200.

Michael

[MrSeaDragon]

Thanks Michael,

That will certainly go a long way towards my dodger windows, and Raymond terrace is well within striking distance, so I'll take it. I'm sure your price is reasonable. 

My mobile is 0404 832349. If you'd like to txt or call sometime we can arrange a suitable pickup time. Thanks.

Kind regards,

Greg

C29 - SeaDragon

[mm]

Hi Greg

The material is yours.  I will give you a call to arrange a suitable time for pickup.

Michael