Changing from wire to rope main halyard

[michael]

At least I can still go to the boat (for now!) by myself.

I am slowly setting up to move all reefing to the cockpit. Have fitted clutches and rope leads (tubes) to the cockpit. I will be fitting the winches next. But the problem exists that I have a wire main sail halyard which will have to be replaced with a rope one. This means that the sheave at the top of the mast will need replacing. If I winch myself to the top I will be using the sheave/axel - and can't remove the axel change it. The topping lift is on the same axel. I was thinking of going to the top and drilling and fitting shackle and running another line, of suitable size, and using that to get to the top.

Any other ideas??

I do not want to remove the mast if I can avoid it.

My yacht is a Compass I33, centre cockpit, fractional rig.

Stay safe.

Michael

Pisces I33

[jack.barnes85]

I’m not an overly experienced sailor but I am an experienced climber. The good thing about climbing a mast on halyard that runs down the mast is that if anything fails under your load there is still the mast to catch you.

If installing a bolt to hoist on I would ensure you have some backup in case the bolt fails or pulls through the aluminium mast hole. You could backup by doing a Prussic or klemheist knot around the top of the mast or something like that. Maybe tying through something at the top as a backup.

Always have a backup.

On bigger boats I crew on I’ve seen very experienced people go up the mast in ways climber would consider unacceptable. Then be lowered in ways I wouldn’t consider safe with no backup.

[Maeling]

Michael, I suspect you are a bit of a loner like me, finding it hard to coralle a second person.  My skin is getting fragile with age and about 5 years ago I fell 300mm stepping off a ladder and landed shoulder first onto a concrete path.  They strung it back together but I'll have a niggle for the rest of time.

You really need two halyards, even if it's a topping lift. And two helpers, one doing the hard work winching you up and the other taking up the slack on the second (or both)  halyard and watching everything as safety officer, runabouts/fouled lines.  Once at the masthead, you need to rig a third halyard, perhaps a block shackled to the mast tip, to come back on.  I'm guessing you will cut the main halyard and attach a messenger line to it before sending it back down. None of this sounds appealing, I know you probably know at least as much as me about these things but every deck landing is bound to be a hard one, especially if you hit the crash barrier!  When you get to it, I'd be happy to come down to Bomaderry and spend the day assisting.

Wondering if there's space on the mast head to drill a hole for a spare shackle for the third halyard. Not a perfect plan but maybe the start of an idea? 

I'm not up to Jack's knots and I had thought of a bucket device with a pulley over the mast cap. What's worse than one trip to the fractional masthead is 2 trips.

Geoff

[michael]

Thanks for the offer Geoff. At this time, COVID19, I am probably better off just working out a way ahead, and not actually doing anything. My topping lift has been jammed since I purchased the boat, which is why I have a solid/spring vang.

I looked at some pictures of the mast head, to refresh my mind. The topping lift is in fact on a separate excel, and I recall (now) that it is a wire/rope halyard, and is fouled/jammed somewhere within the mast. Is loose on the top and bottom sheaves.

See picture.

I could go up using the main halyard, pull the topping lift sheave axel, fit a rope sheave, and run an external halyard. Then go up on the topping lift (new external one), replace the main halyard sheave and run a new rope halyard using the old wire as a messenger. Sounds complicated and means at least 2 trips to the mast top.

Also, for the brains trust. I assume (and we know what that means!) that there is another axel and sheaves, inside the masthead, where the SS cover is. I think this because the 2 halyards must be fed down the mast from their sheaves that are visible in the picture. That being correct how would I get these out without dropping them down the mast when their axel is removed; and new ones fitted?? I do not recall what space is available under the masthead fitting?

Or, do I wait "the Virus" out and just go to Sydney and pay a rigger?

Michael

Pisces I33

[Carl - Elcie Jay]

Do you have to replace the main wire halyard? You could splice a rope tail to it for the winch and jam cleat at the cockpit end.

[richardpedvin]

Hi I'm wondering why you feel you need to change the pulley. When I had my mast down some years ago (C28) I had all aluminum pulleys. The main halyard was SS cable. I left it as wasput in a forth one I made one a wood working lath and all has been good. I hav not seen any chafing etc. So why even go up just chang it and go sailing. However only havving one halyard thats another story. Mick were are you located. I'm around port stephens mostly these days
🥂 richard 🤠

[michael]

The sheaves are alloy, and designed for wire. The wire sheaves are thinner and have a different groove profile to rope sheaves. Using rope in these wire sheaves will damage the rope. The suggestion to splice rope to the wire is another idea.
On another front, I went to Pisces to do some work and noticed that the spreader end covers had come adrift and slid down the rigging to deck level. I then noticed a lot of scraps of thread and plastic tape scattered around the deck. Also birds droppings which was the give away. Pisces had been attacked by those pesky white cockatoos. Bloody things can do a lot of damage.
Stay healthy everyone.
Michael
Yacht Pisces I33

[richardpedvin]

Sometime past when Sooty's mast was down I took off the leather caps on the spreadders only to find the leather had been retaining water. In turn it meant electrolouis. I ended up getting an engines shop to rebuild the spreader bar tips by means of welding ...... I decided not to cover the tips with leather upon reassembly. To date this has not been a problem in fact I thinks better as I can see the connections of cable and spreader bars. So I would think those naughty parrots did you a favor🤠.
Ps sorry about my word arrangements from time to time its something I inherited 🤠👍🏾🥂

[dean francis]

Just wondering.
Could you replace the wire with Dyneema of the same diameter ( no loss in
strength ).
It would fit in the sheaves without overlapping the sides but not sure if
the inner groove profile would have an effect?
Dean
Norlee N28

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[Maeling]

I can see the two sheaves, is that a 3rd axle with SS cover caps in the middle of the mast for perhaps a second sheave for the topping lift.

Separately I seem to remember the modern Dyema type ropes don't stand up well to ultra violet.

On my C29 I use wire to rope spliced halyards.  On the mooring I attach wire tails and pull the rope back inside the mast, on deck the rope tails are under canvas.

No use to you but I enjoyed learning how to splice wire to rope (another stone-age skill).

Offer still stands, when we lift Covid - Bomaderry is just a hop step and jump and I can write while on the way.  

Geoff

[pshaw]

I have changed the mainsail halyard on Polly Jane2 to 10mm double braid polyester and also rerouted the line to the exit on the port side of the mast and back to a rope clutch at the rear of the cabin. It has not had much use so far but seems to work OK. I can raise the sail about half way before I need to use the winch I have fitted to the cabin top. I did not use Spectra as I wanted to be able to handle the rope easily which a smaller diameter rope would not allow. If the line was damaged by the pulley sheaves it would be readily visible when the sail was lowered.

[richardpedvin]

I agree with shaw one will see if there is a problem with masthead pully by way of ware on the halyard. and would add the key reason I use a winch on the main halyard is to over come the resitance of the slugs.

[Maeling]

I still have the original drawings of the C29 Rig.  For some reason Sparcraft set up the reefing for Port tack.  I was always taught, best to reef on starboard tack and at least have some right of way while under partial control.  My wire-to rope splices have never given any trouble except for sun damage to the rope.  I am coming up for a third set this year after 38 years - due roller reefing and the breakage of the release cord attachment on a snap shackle and having to pull the stick out.

Geoff

[michael]

Hi Geoff, thanks for your offer of help. Might take it up A.C. (After Covid)

I think you are on the right track with there being an axle under the SS covers. I agree this is likely for the topping lift. This is the one that is jammed somewhere in the mast. The sheaves, top and exit, for the lift are free to rotate but the wire/rope is fouled somewhere inside. I was thinking that if I were to go up the mast on the main halyard, remove the topping lift sheave and replace with a "rope" sheave and run a rope down to the deck external to the mast. Then back up on this new rope and replace the main halyard sheave, then run a new rope for the main using the existing wire/rope as a mouse. Sounds complicated but a lot easier and cheaper than dropping the mast.

I am part way through setting up for reefing from the cockpit. Drilled the holes in the cockpit coaming for the rope and sleaved with tubing. Fitted two three rope clutches - one either side of the hatch. Removed the 2 primary winches and moved them to be used for the reefing. Have purchased a pair of two speed self tailing winches for new primaries, hope to fit then soon. Tomorrow the sailmaker and I will fit a new zip up boom bag with lazy jacks; and refit the main after a going over and some small repairs.

Still need to rearrange the reefing blocks on the boom and the base of the mast. I "sort of" know what I am going to do with the boom and main for single line reefing. On my Northerner I ran the reefing line from the boom, through the aft cringle, back to aft boom, through a turning block, fwd to a turning block, up to fwd cringle, back down to mast base, through an organiser, though a clutch to the winch. I figure to do the same. I may need to add a block at the fwd and aft cringle if there is too much friction. I need to work out the best way of fixing/sorting the blocks at the mast base.

Oh well, lots to keep me busy. I figure I am also keeping the economy moving too - out of my bank into other peoples.

Stay safe all.

Cheers

Michael

Pisces I33

[michael]

Hi Carl,

Your suggestion is a valid one - and is so simple I had not thought down that line Doh! Will consider it; Geoff is the Compass expert in rope to wire splicing. 

Cheers

Michael

Pisces I33

[Stewart]

Hi Michael,

I’m a bit late to this discussion; however, on my i33, I replaced the wire with double braid with a dyneema core. The double braid outer cover was removed from half of the halyard and stitched securely to the core. The remaining dynema core stays inside the mast, so protected from UV. This enabled the original wire halyard winch to be retained.  I did replace the original sheave with a rope sheave. When I hoist the mainsail, the “join” finishes on the winch alleviating any strain at that point when the luff is tensioned.

Just another approach.

Cheers,

Stewart

i33 LyndenLee

[Maeling]

Those plates on the side of the mast remind me of my own Sparcraft C29 mast. In my case the shaft is welded to a shaped plate which is held by a screw.  The other end is ground flush to follow the curve of the other side of the mast.  For messenger lines, I would use 3mm VBcord.  I expect your topping lift goes over 2 consecutive sheaves and the main Halyard rolls over its sheave and comes straight down. 

Geoff

[michael]

Hi Geoff,

Yes, I think you are correct re the halyard routing. Can not remember the other side of the mast, opposite the "plate", but probably how you described. 

I seems that "sailing, checking vessel/mooring, fishing" are acceptable reasons for leaving the home, in NSW at least! So was on Pisces yesterday and the day before. Had the sailmaker out to fit the boom bag and helped me refit the main while there. Pisces is starting to look a bit fresher now with the boom bag and canopy. I also fitted the 2 new main winches and moved the original main winches to be used for the cockpit reefing. Drilled and tapped 6m hex key headed screws, 6m phillips head screws for the rope clutches. For the new main winches it was 6m bolts, washer and nyloc nuts. All with silicon sealant to stop any leaks.

I ordered new rope for the headsail sheets, as the new winches will not take the existing 16mm. Ordered on the 29th March from Sydney ropes. Was with Austpost on the 30th; then it was in Qld on the 4th April, Back in Sydney on the 8th and expected delivery to Nowra (me) on Tuesday14th. Well I hope the rope enjoyed the scenic trip to Nowra. Grrrr! Once the rope arrives I can at least go sailing.

I am yet to decide how to mount the turning blocks at the base of the mast for the reefing lines and halyard. Do I drill and tap into the deck, or make some sort of a mounting plate and attached to the deck with the blocks attached to that? Or another way? All good food for thought as I remain isolated from other persons.

Stay safe fellow Compass'ers.

Michael

Pisces I33

[Maeling]

Looking good.  Sydney ropes is a good tip.  I bought a new mainsheet via Whitworths and have found it too slippery in the Jamb cleat, so the I have to put a precautionary half hitch below the cleat. Not sure if the rope is too hard or slippery.  Perhaps my original mainsheet was staple polyester which was a softer flat finish.

Good news we are allowed to go down and check the boat unless we have to cross the QLD border.

Geoff

[Maeling]

Looking good.  Sydney ropes is a good tip.  I bought a new mainsheet via Whitworths and have found it too slippery in the Jamb cleat, so the I have to put a precautionary half hitch below the cleat. Not sure if the rope is too hard or slippery.  Perhaps my original mainsheet was staple polyester which was a softer flat finish.

Good news we are allowed to go down and check the boat unless we have to cross the QLD border.

Geoff

[Maeling]

Missed that, On the shaft with the plate, is that on one side or both sides?  My C29 Sparcraft mast has the shaft with a tang welded to one end and a securing screw.  The other end goes though a hole in the wall of the mast and is ground curved to flush fit the side of the mast.  I'd hate to think how I bored it to line up with the holes in the mast head fitting?

Geoff

[michael]

Hi Geoff,

I think it is as you described - I do not remember it exactly. The pictures I took when the mast was down shoe a plate on either side held in by screws. Don't know if one plate is welded to the axle or not. 

I have been looking at the "wire to rope splicing" videos and it looks fairly simple. I will give it a try at home and see how "simple" it really is. Rope to wire would give me some "time" so I can continue with the "reefing lines to cockpit" modifications while waiting for the shutdown to lift. I would still like to be getting a yacht rigger to go over the rig, and have rope all the way.

As I (we) are legal to go sailing I took advantage of some nice weather to go out for a couple hours and use the new main winches, and adjust their self tailing line leads. A short video is attached I hope! OK, doesn't seem I can add videos - anyone know how? You can see the old main winches repositioned and the clutches and rope leads through the cockpit coaming in the pictures attached.

Stay safe, stay well, stay at home - unless isolating on your boat.

Cheers

Michael

Pisces I33

[Djarraluda Too]

To climb the mast, you can use a TopClimber (if you have a decent bank balance still), or what I did was go to the mountaineering stores and buy 2 ascenders.  One right and one left handed.  Foot strop on one, bosuns chair on the other and up you go.

This gets you to the top but yes, still using the main halyard.  Now out comes the drill and rivet gun to attach the foot steps.  2 near the top, so you can stand and work on the mast head, perhaps with mast head just above waist height.

Then more steps either side so you alternate at about 250 or 300mm centres down to below the forestay attachment, again, I would go to waist height below.

Knackered for the day at this point, go below and pour a stiff one to recover.

Next day, you can use forestay to ascend to the steps, then use topping lift as safety line when you climb the steps to the masthead.  Wear a waist belt to lean back on and you are fine.  Assistant simply takes the slack on the safety line all the time, using a wrap around a winch of course.

You now have the ability to climb the mast anytime you are brave, or foolhardy, enough to do so.  Hey, it is predominantly calm weather at present and not too cool yet either.  I tried it without the foot steps in 11 degC and 28kn breeze.  Lasted all of 2 seconds and paid someone to run the new cable and fit wind sensor. Made me appreciate the C28 mast height and thickness!

For a kinder attack on finances, nerves and the scotch bottle........  The wire/rope splice sounds the best way to go

So the "trick" is to shorten the wire, so that the rope tail is in the clutch.  

Roger

[Maeling]

I've done 4 Wire to rope splices in my time. Each worked out well. These days I use old halyard wire as strops so I can pull the halyard up until the rope is safely out of the sun inside the mast, They look new, not tatty like the ones they replaced.  It's an old skill but still relevant but labour-wise , costly.

Geoff