Help please: Electric anchor winch and self-stowing chain and warp for C29

[John Barnaby]

Hello Geoff. I think it was you who provided the link to Sea Dragon's refit photos.

Thank you.

The photos do not appear to show how self stowage of the chain and warp were organised. This is the crucial problem I am trying to solve. I have not heard so far from anyone who has achieved it.

Cheers

John

[Maeling]

I'll try to track down Sea Dragon. From memory he cut through the floor of the void under the anchor hatch floor.  I've drowned 2 mobiles in recent months,  can you SMS your # to 0417 203 146

Geoff

[Maeling]

Thanks waiting for Greg to spot this, I have lost contact since he moved north G

[Maeling]

I notice you say chain and warp. In my experience, I would not mix the two in a powered winch system.  One NYE I was anchored well out off Mrs Macquarie's chair, a blow came in and I had to move quickly and the anchorline went under the riving knife and jammed!  I had to get a big screwdriver quickly to remove the riving knife which left nothing holding the barrel to the deck.

On my manual Muir winch, I take the tail around the bowcleat and maintain tension while winding with the other hand until I have chain on the gipsy.  It's a great winch and I love it but don't get caught with the anchor half down.

One of our other boats had an all chain tackle and went aground at our first Regatta in 2002.  We needed 2 dinghies to carry out enough chain to lay the anchor in deep water. At each press of the button, his system ripped in a metre of chain - a real finger removerer!

G

[Maeling]

This is the super - service - not available to all

Hello Greg

On Geoff Raebel's suggestion I have gone through all your photos of your refit of Sea Dragon. I was mightily impressed!

I am 80 years old with arthritic feet and no longer able to get easily from the cockpit to the foredeck and back again.

So I am reorganising my newly purchased C29, Orion, so that I can manage virtually everything from the cockpit.

I am going to fit an electric anchor winch as I see you have done for Sea Dragon. The bit I haven't figured out is how to achieve self-stowing for the anchor chain and warp. Did you  manage to do this successfully for Sea Dragon? If so I would be very grateful if you could find time to let me know how you did it.

BTW, Geoff has warned me of the perils of a combination chain and warp with an electric winch. I am sure he is not recommending warp only, so he must be thinking of 60m or so of chain. That seems unwieldy for a C29.  I had been thinking of a fortress anchor with the recommended 8m of chain and a warp spliced on to the end of the chain. I would also be grateful to know your thoughts on this.

Is Sea Dragon back in the water yet? You must be very proud of her.

Regards

John (Barnaby)

[Maeling]

Hi John, 

Thanks for your interest in Sea Dragon. You’ve done well if you have been through all the photos. There are a lot there. You’re also doing well to be still getting around a boat at 80. Are you downsizing, or satisfying a lifelong dream ?? 

Unfortunately Sea Dragon is not in the water yet. Life has taken a different tack over the last few years and I have barely done anything further on the refit. As you might have noticed with the last photo date being June 2019 ! There was a little work done after that, and she has been moved into a warehouse in Port Macquarie. She’s not forgotten though. I haven’t been on the Compass forum for some time though. 

Like you I plan to have all sailing controls working from the cockpit, including single line reefing, and I installed the electric up/down anchor winch for the same reason. My plan is (and I almost said “was”) to spend most of my time in the tropics, which means coral reefs, hence I do plan to have all chain despite the weight. So this simplifies the self-stowage issue, although doesn’t totally alleviate it. My main rode will be 8mm chain and a Rocna  (I think it’s a 15kg or maybe a 10kg). 

The main stowage issue, as you are probably aware is fall, particularly for chain. Chain needs a minimum of about 300mm from the winch to the TOP of the pile or it will end up jamming in the gipsy, and a standard Compass just doesn’t have the vertical space. Hence my chain locker modification, of which I’m sure you have seen the photos. I’m am expecting that this should be adequate, although I have not yet checked how much chain will actually fit in. An alternative would be to run the hawse pipe down the inside (aft) of the forward collision bulkhead and have the anchor locker under the v-birth, but then you will face the issue of bringing water into the boat. 

I also have a second (backup/kedge) anchor rode of 14mm rope / 8mm chain combination with a Fortress (I think it is a FX-16). The winch I bought as the capability to handle the transition from chain to rope in the gipsy itself, as long as the rope is spliced into the chain properly and the right size for the gipsy. I don’t know what the requirements are for “fall” with rope, if there are any. I hope that it just gets fed into the anchor locker until it’s all stuffed in, but in practice there may still be jamming issues. In my use of this secondary rode I will not be sending it down into the bottom chain locker through the hawse pipe, but feeding it out the front of the winch and into the top anchor locker. But I would also most likely be using it while on the foredeck and wouldn’t expect it to self-stow very well, nor self-deploy. 

I think finding a solution for anchoring without going forward, with rope/chain combination rode would prove fairly tricky.   I totally agree with this.  In all-chain the weight of the chain makes it self-stowing.  For myself, I have 5 metres of 8mm shortlink (pitched) chain soft spliced to silver rope with heat shrink tube over the rope to prevent chafe (a'la Mr Muir).  When using rope/chain, it is necessary to take one turn around the anchor cleat and maintain tension or it will go into the riving knife and jam badly. 

I would also say that I wouldn’t use a Fortress as my primary anchor unless 1) they have come out with a “plough” style anchor while I’ve been away, or 2) you will ONLY EVER be anchoring in sand of soft mud, in mild conditions, and how can you guarantee that. Anyway I’m sure you have done your research and will choose appropriately.[ I Geoff use a 15kg chinese plough anchor - gone through about 3 in 40 in years. Rust got the other two.  Now I have the prettiest chinese plough anchor painted from new with swimming pool paint. 10 years and no rust, I probably hold the monopoly on this old paint.]

[IF YOU USE THE VOID UNDER THE ANCHOR LOCKER YOU'LL NEED TO HAVE A BILGE PUMP FOR IT]

As my plan is to use the boat as a live aboard cruiser, which needs to cater for ALL eventualities, I have oversized everything and have backups for the backups, and if she is a little heavy, that is not of great concern.

 

The caveat on all of this though, as Sea Dragon is not yet in the water, is that my theories have not been proven in practice.

 

I hope I’ve answered your questions. Feel free to ask, or let me know if you would like any more details or explanation of what’s in any of the photos.  

 

Kind Regards,

Greg.

 

From: John Barnaby [mailto:johnjame...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, 12 June 2021 21:56
To: gmc...@hotmail.com
Subject: Electric anchor winch installation

 

Hello Greg

On Geoff Raebel's suggestion I have gone through all your photos of your refit of Sea Dragon. I was mightily impressed!

I am 80 years old with arthritic feet and no longer able to get easily from the cockpit to the foredeck and back again.

So I am reorganising my newly purchased C29, Orion, so that I can manage virtually everything from the cockpit.

I am going to fit an electric anchor winch as I see you have done for Sea Dragon. The bit I haven't figured out is how to achieve self-stowing for the anchor chain and warp. Did you  manage to do this successfully for Sea Dragon? If so I would be very grateful if you could find time to let me know how you did it.

BTW, Geoff has warned me of the perils of a combination chain and warp with an electric winch. I am sure he is not recommending warp only, so he must be thinking of 60m or so of chain. That seems unwieldy for a C29.  I had been thinking of a fortress anchor with the recommended 8m of chain and a warp spliced on to the end of the chain. I would also be grateful to know your thoughts on this.

Is Sea Dragon back in the water yet? You must be very proud of her.

Regards

John (Barnaby)