ncurses and "application mode"

[Rainer Weikusat]

The ncurses library apparently (ie, it happens but I'm just assuming
it's done by it) switches a terminal into so-called "application mode"
and back, with the effect of programs using it expecting the arrow keys
to generate escape sequences starting with ESC O instead of ESC ]. This
single character exchange seems a most useless exercise to me (and I've
just written code to handle it ... grrr).

Does anybody have some insight re: what that's supposed to be good for?

[Gary R. Schmidt]

Have a look at the terminfo/termcap definitions for your device, that's
where it will be.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <sv7s5i-...@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,

I don't think you two are speaking the same language. I.e., you are not
answering the question he is asking.

I.e., he is asking a "Why?" question, you are answering a "Help me. My
program doesn't work!" question.

Note: Usenet (and all other online help forums) don't do well with "Why?"
type questions.

--
Donald Drumpf claims to be "the least racist person you'll ever meet".

This would be true if the only other person you've ever met was David Duke.

[Gary R. Schmidt]

On 10/11/2021 21:36, Kenny McCormack wrote:
> In article <sv7s5i-...@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
> Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
>> On 10/11/2021 09:30, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>>> The ncurses library apparently (ie, it happens but I'm just assuming
>>> it's done by it) switches a terminal into so-called "application mode"
>>> and back, with the effect of programs using it expecting the arrow keys
>>> to generate escape sequences starting with ESC O instead of ESC ]. This
>>> single character exchange seems a most useless exercise to me (and I've
>>> just written code to handle it ... grrr).
>>>
>>> Does anybody have some insight re: what that's supposed to be good for?
>>>
>> Have a look at the terminfo/termcap definitions for your device, that's
>> where it will be.
>
> I don't think you two are speaking the same language. I.e., you are not
> answering the question he is asking.
>
> I.e., he is asking a "Why?" question, you are answering a "Help me. My
> program doesn't work!" question.
>
> Note: Usenet (and all other online help forums) don't do well with "Why?"
> type questions.
>

You may be right - I think he doesn't understand how curses/ncurses
works, and thinks that the library is emitting something that is not
read from the termcap/terminfo description of his device.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

[Richard Kettlewell]

https://invisible-island.net/ncurses/ncurses.faq.html and search down
for ‘Keyboard Problems’.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[Rainer Weikusat]

You think entirely wrongly. Ncurses switches a terminal into something
called "application mode" (using the escape sequencs ^]]1h) which has
the effect of changing the escape sequence sent for an arrow up key from
^]]A to ^]OA (same scheme for the other arrow keys), the point of which
escapes me. I'm assuming that's some compatibility feature for something
ancient (and presumably, long extinct) and was asking if someone knew
what this was (or is) supposed to be good for because I'm curiou about
it.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Short version: Workaround for crappy, long obsolete hardware text
terminals. That much I guessed. :-)

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

When 99.9% of terminals now are ansi why bother using curses? Skip the middle
man and write the ansi codes direct , its much faster.

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <smguoj$1q7s$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, <Dozi...@thekennel.co> wrote:
...

>When 99.9% of terminals now are ansi why bother using curses? Skip the middle

Do You have a cite (URL) for that statistic?

I think I've heard that is was only 99.3%, but maybe things have changed
recently?

--
If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the
computer, a Rolls-Royce today would cost $100, get a million miles to
the gallon, and explode once every few weeks, killing everyone inside.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Dozi...@thekennel.co writes:
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:28:22 +0000
> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>Richard Kettlewell <inv...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> writes:
>>>> The ncurses library apparently (ie, it happens but I'm just assuming
>>>> it's done by it) switches a terminal into so-called "application mode"
>>>> and back, with the effect of programs using it expecting the arrow keys
>>>> to generate escape sequences starting with ESC O instead of ESC ]. This
>>>> single character exchange seems a most useless exercise to me (and I've
>>>> just written code to handle it ... grrr).
>>>>
>>>> Does anybody have some insight re: what that's supposed to be good for?
>>>
>>> https://invisible-island.net/ncurses/ncurses.faq.html and search down

>>> for ‘Keyboard Problems’.

>>
>>Short version: Workaround for crappy, long obsolete hardware text
>>terminals. That much I guessed. :-)
>
> When 99.9% of terminals now are ansi why bother using curses? Skip the middle
> man and write the ansi codes direct , its much faster.

Could you please refrain from attaching your unrelated opinion
statements to texts I wrote? The given situation is such that I have to
support ncurses applications in a certain environment. I'm also
interested in information about the ESC [ vs ESC O issue, ie why do
vtXYZ terminals and emulations of them support switching from ] as second
charater in an escape sequences to O as second character.

Semirandom reply to your statement: Considering that computers are
thousands of times (presumably too little) faster today than they used
to be in 1985 or even in the 1990s, why bother with hard-coding a
certain set of escape sequences "because that's faster"? Talk about
solving a non-problem ...

[Gary R. Schmidt]

Ah, you want "comp.terminals", not "comp.unix.programmer".

It has nothing to do with curses/ncurses as such, but *why* the terminal
definition tell curses/ncures to spit out such strings.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:48:08 -0000 (UTC)
gaz...@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) wrote:
>In article <smguoj$1q7s$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, <Dozi...@thekennel.co> wrote:

>....

>>When 99.9% of terminals now are ansi why bother using curses? Skip the middle
>
>Do You have a cite (URL) for that statistic?
>
>I think I've heard that is was only 99.3%, but maybe things have changed
>recently?

Given almost nobody uses real terminals anymore (and even then most of them
are ansi or at least vt* compatible) I think its a fair assumption. In fact
the number of virtual terminals in use compared to real terminals is probably
way higher than 1/1000 so its probably more like 99.9999%.

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:00:53 +0000

Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>Dozi...@thekennel.co writes:
>> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:28:22 +0000
>> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>>Richard Kettlewell <inv...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> writes:
>>>>> The ncurses library apparently (ie, it happens but I'm just assuming
>>>>> it's done by it) switches a terminal into so-called "application mode"
>>>>> and back, with the effect of programs using it expecting the arrow keys
>>>>> to generate escape sequences starting with ESC O instead of ESC ]. This
>>>>> single character exchange seems a most useless exercise to me (and I've
>>>>> just written code to handle it ... grrr).
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anybody have some insight re: what that's supposed to be good for?
>>>>
>>>> https://invisible-island.net/ncurses/ncurses.faq.html and search down
>>>> for ‘Keyboard Problems’.
>>>
>>>Short version: Workaround for crappy, long obsolete hardware text
>>>terminals. That much I guessed. :-)
>>
>> When 99.9% of terminals now are ansi why bother using curses? Skip the middle
>
>> man and write the ansi codes direct , its much faster.
>
>Could you please refrain from attaching your unrelated opinion
>statements to texts I wrote? The given situation is such that I have to

No, I couldn't. Newsflash - this is usenet. If you want a private conversation
use email otherwise stop whining.

>Semirandom reply to your statement: Considering that computers are
>thousands of times (presumably too little) faster today than they used
>to be in 1985 or even in the 1990s, why bother with hard-coding a
>certain set of escape sequences "because that's faster"? Talk about
>solving a non-problem ...

An array containing a few escape codes then just using printf() instead of
juggling curses specific API calls is IMO a lot simpler from a coding POV
as well as being faster.

[Kenny McCormack]

Heh heh. Missing the point, much?

--
There are many self-professed Christians who seem to think that because
they believe in Jesus' sacrifice they can reject Jesus' teachings about
how we should treat others. In this country, they show that they reject
Jesus' teachings by voting for Republicans.

[James Kuyper]

On 11/11/21 5:02 AM, Dozi...@thekennel.co wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:00:53 +0000
> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:

...

>> Could you please refrain from attaching your unrelated opinion
>> statements to texts I wrote? The given situation is such that I have to
>
> No, I couldn't.

You certainly could. What you mean is "I won't".

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:56:07 -0000 (UTC)

gaz...@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) wrote:
>In article <smipk3$1inv$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, <Dozi...@thekennel.co> wrote:
>>On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:48:08 -0000 (UTC)
>>gaz...@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) wrote:
>>>In article <smguoj$1q7s$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, <Dozi...@thekennel.co> wrote:
>>>....
>>>>When 99.9% of terminals now are ansi why bother using curses? Skip
>>>>the middle
>>>
>>>Do You have a cite (URL) for that statistic?
>>>
>>>I think I've heard that is was only 99.3%, but maybe things have changed
>>>recently?
>>
>>Given almost nobody uses real terminals anymore (and even then most of them
>>are ansi or at least vt* compatible) I think its a fair assumption. In fact
>>the number of virtual terminals in use compared to real terminals is probably
>>way higher than 1/1000 so its probably more like 99.9999%.
>
>Heh heh. Missing the point, much?

Probably missing what you think is the point.

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:06:07 -0500
James Kuyper <james...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>On 11/11/21 5:02 AM, Dozi...@thekennel.co wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:00:53 +0000
>> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:

>....

>>> Could you please refrain from attaching your unrelated opinion
>>> statements to texts I wrote? The given situation is such that I have to
>>
>> No, I couldn't.
>
>You certainly could. What you mean is "I won't".

Then he should have asked "Will you please refrain".

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <smipnq$1kki$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, <Dozi...@thekennel.co> wrote:
...

>>Could you please refrain from attaching your unrelated opinion
>>statements to texts I wrote? The given situation is such that I have to
>
>No, I couldn't. Newsflash - this is usenet. If you want a private conversation
>use email otherwise stop whining.

Your position is identical to the following exchange:

Me: Would you please stop shitting on my lawn?

You: No, I won't. This is America! There is nothing you can do to stop me
from shitting on your lawn. Stop whining!

Me: Yes, you are right. But you're still an asshole.

--
The scent of awk programmers is a lot more attractive to women than
the scent of perl programmers.

(Mike Brennan, quoted in the "GAWK" manual)

[Rainer Weikusat]

Dozi...@thekennel.co writes:
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:00:53 +0000
> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>Dozi...@thekennel.co writes:
>>> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:28:22 +0000
>>> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>>>Richard Kettlewell <inv...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> writes:
>>>>>> The ncurses library apparently (ie, it happens but I'm just assuming
>>>>>> it's done by it) switches a terminal into so-called "application mode"
>>>>>> and back, with the effect of programs using it expecting the arrow keys
>>>>>> to generate escape sequences starting with ESC O instead of ESC ]. This
>>>>>> single character exchange seems a most useless exercise to me (and I've
>>>>>> just written code to handle it ... grrr).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anybody have some insight re: what that's supposed to be good for?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://invisible-island.net/ncurses/ncurses.faq.html and search down

>>>>> for ‘Keyboard Problems’.

>>>>
>>>>Short version: Workaround for crappy, long obsolete hardware text
>>>>terminals. That much I guessed. :-)
>>>
>>> When 99.9% of terminals now are ansi why bother using curses? Skip the middle
>>
>>> man and write the ansi codes direct , its much faster.
>>
>>Could you please refrain from attaching your unrelated opinion
>>statements to texts I wrote? The given situation is such that I have to
>
> No, I couldn't. Newsflash - this is usenet. If you want a private conversation
> use email otherwise stop whining.

If you want to start a discussion about some topic, post something. If
all you can manage is to add random stuff to something that's not
related to it, don't 'whine' about being told that this was pretty
useless.

>>Semirandom reply to your statement: Considering that computers are
>>thousands of times (presumably too little) faster today than they used
>>to be in 1985 or even in the 1990s, why bother with hard-coding a
>>certain set of escape sequences "because that's faster"? Talk about
>>solving a non-problem ...
>
> An array containing a few escape codes then just using printf() instead of
> juggling curses specific API calls is IMO a lot simpler from a coding POV
> as well as being faster.

So far, I've written one program using curses and something like

static void curses_start(int c)
{
int attr, color;

attr = A_BOLD;

switch (c) {
case CHR_PROBLEM:
color = CP_PROBLEM;
break;

case CHR_PROGRESS:
color = CP_PROGRESS;
break;

case CHR_FINE:
attr = A_NORMAL;
color = CP_FINE;
}

attr_set(attr, color, NULL);
}

is vastly easier to understand and work with than the equivalent 'machine
code' (which terminal control escape sequences are).

"Being faster" is still a non-point. If it was fast enough on VAXen or
25Mhz PCs - and it was - it's going to be much more than 'fast enough'
on the hardware of today.

[James Kuyper]

Not necessarily. He might have had doubts about your physical ability to
restrain yourself. I gave you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that
you do have that ability, and just choose not to exercise it. That's not
much of a benefit - being unwilling to do so is almost as pathetic as
not being able to do so.

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:22:38 -0000 (UTC)
gaz...@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) wrote:
>In article <smipnq$1kki$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, <Dozi...@thekennel.co> wrote:

>....

>>>Could you please refrain from attaching your unrelated opinion
>>>statements to texts I wrote? The given situation is such that I have to
>>
>>No, I couldn't. Newsflash - this is usenet. If you want a private conversation
>
>>use email otherwise stop whining.
>
>Your position is identical to the following exchange:
>
>Me: Would you please stop shitting on my lawn?
>
>You: No, I won't. This is America! There is nothing you can do to stop me
>from shitting on your lawn. Stop whining!
>
>Me: Yes, you are right. But you're still an asshole.

Its spelt arsehole, unless you're refering to a donkey. And no, its not the
same. Usenet exists for people to join a discussion. Are they supposed to ask
permission first or only post if they think the poster will agree with them?
Fuck that.

Go to your safe space snowflake and cuddle a teddy bear if you can't handle it.

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:40:43 +0000

Its not random and its not my fault if you're too thick to see the connection.
But instead of just ignoring it you put your ignorance on display for all.
Congratulations.

>> An array containing a few escape codes then just using printf() instead of
>> juggling curses specific API calls is IMO a lot simpler from a coding POV
>> as well as being faster.
>
>So far, I've written one program using curses and something like
>
>static void curses_start(int c)
>{
> int attr, color;
>
> attr = A_BOLD;
>
> switch (c) {
> case CHR_PROBLEM:
> color = CP_PROBLEM;
> break;
>
> case CHR_PROGRESS:
> color = CP_PROGRESS;
> break;
>
> case CHR_FINE:
> attr = A_NORMAL;
> color = CP_FINE;
> }
>
> attr_set(attr, color, NULL);
>}
>
>is vastly easier to understand and work with than the equivalent 'machine
>code' (which terminal control escape sequences are).

Thats your opinion, plenty of others may differ. However using escape codes
I can change colours and effects multiple times in a single printf but with
curses it would be god knows how many API calls to do the same thing.

>"Being faster" is still a non-point. If it was fast enough on VAXen or
>25Mhz PCs - and it was - it's going to be much more than 'fast enough'
>on the hardware of today.

Any decent programmer cares about efficiency.

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:15:25 -0500

I'd reserve "pathetic" for someone who thinks a polite verbal disagreement
requires restraint.

You might not be in your 20s but you're one of the spiritual ancestors of the
sad wet woke generation we're suffering now.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Dozi...@thekennel.co writes:
> On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:40:43 +0000
> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:

[...]

>>If you want to start a discussion about some topic, post something. If
>>all you can manage is to add random stuff to something that's not
>>related to it, don't 'whine' about being told that this was pretty
>>useless.
>
> Its not random and its not my fault if you're too thick to see the connection.
> But instead of just ignoring it you put your ignorance on display for all.
> Congratulations.

People being very convinced that something which doesn't exist must be
there nevertheless isn't an uncommon occurence. Especially in software
development, cf Kees Cooks witchhunt for the mass of accidentally
forgotten breaks in the Linux source which didn't exist but he
nevertheless dutifully found.

>>> An array containing a few escape codes then just using printf() instead of
>>> juggling curses specific API calls is IMO a lot simpler from a coding POV
>>> as well as being faster.
>>
>>So far, I've written one program using curses and something like
>>
>>static void curses_start(int c)
>>{
>> int attr, color;
>>
>> attr = A_BOLD;
>>
>> switch (c) {
>> case CHR_PROBLEM:
>> color = CP_PROBLEM;
>> break;
>>
>> case CHR_PROGRESS:
>> color = CP_PROGRESS;
>> break;
>>
>> case CHR_FINE:
>> attr = A_NORMAL;
>> color = CP_FINE;
>> }
>>
>> attr_set(attr, color, NULL);
>>}
>>
>>is vastly easier to understand and work with than the equivalent 'machine
>>code' (which terminal control escape sequences are).
>
> Thats your opinion, plenty of others may differ. However using escape codes
> I can change colours and effects multiple times in a single printf but with
> curses it would be god knows how many API calls to do the same thing.

One for each change plus setting up the colour pairs. And it cleanly
separates the actual output from binary gibberish (as viewed from a
human perspective) which just exists because it's an artefact of some
machine.

>>"Being faster" is still a non-point. If it was fast enough on VAXen or
>>25Mhz PCs - and it was - it's going to be much more than 'fast enough'
>>on the hardware of today.
>
> Any decent programmer cares about efficiency.

A decent programmer would use an argument here instead of a general
platitude referring to the person who posted an opinion. That's because
decent programmer would have to be decent logicans instead of innuendo
experts.

Yesterday, I did a C/ XS implementation of some 'inner loop'-routine of
a certain program. Depending on the use-case, this sped it up by a
factor of 2.2 or 2.7. However, in absolute terms, this comes down to
saving about 5E-7 seconds of running time per invocation. I'm going to
keep it because I have it now but hindsight, this likely wasn't really
worth the effort.

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 15:30:14 +0000

Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>Dozi...@thekennel.co writes:
>> On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:40:43 +0000
>> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>>If you want to start a discussion about some topic, post something. If
>>>all you can manage is to add random stuff to something that's not
>>>related to it, don't 'whine' about being told that this was pretty
>>>useless.
>>
>> Its not random and its not my fault if you're too thick to see the
>connection.
>> But instead of just ignoring it you put your ignorance on display for all.
>> Congratulations.
>
>People being very convinced that something which doesn't exist must be
>there nevertheless isn't an uncommon occurence. Especially in software
>development, cf Kees Cooks witchhunt for the mass of accidentally
>forgotten breaks in the Linux source which didn't exist but he
>nevertheless dutifully found.

I'm sure that gibberish meant something to you when you wrote it. Perhaps
something got lost in translation from German.

>> Thats your opinion, plenty of others may differ. However using escape codes
>> I can change colours and effects multiple times in a single printf but with
>> curses it would be god knows how many API calls to do the same thing.
>
>One for each change plus setting up the colour pairs. And it cleanly
>separates the actual output from binary gibberish (as viewed from a
>human perspective) which just exists because it's an artefact of some
>machine.

#include <string>
#include <iostream>

const char *RED = "\033[31m";
const char *GREEN = "\033[32m";
const char *BLUE = "\033[34m";
const char *MAGENTA = "\033[35m";
const char *TURQ = "\033[36m";
const char *RESET = "\033[0m";

using namespace std;

int main()
{
cout << RED << "You " << GREEN << "don't " << BLUE << "have "
<< MAGENTA << "a " << TURQ << "clue. " << RESET << endl;
cout << "Ok?\n";
return 0;

}


>> Any decent programmer cares about efficiency.
>
>A decent programmer would use an argument here instead of a general
>platitude referring to the person who posted an opinion. That's because
>decent programmer would have to be decent logicans instead of innuendo
>experts.

More gibberish.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Dozi...@thekennel.co writes:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 15:30:14 +0000
> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>Dozi...@thekennel.co writes:
>>> On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:40:43 +0000
>>> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>>If you want to start a discussion about some topic, post something. If
>>>>all you can manage is to add random stuff to something that's not
>>>>related to it, don't 'whine' about being told that this was pretty
>>>>useless.
>>>
>>> Its not random and its not my fault if you're too thick to see the
>>connection.
>>> But instead of just ignoring it you put your ignorance on display for all.
>>> Congratulations.
>>
>>People being very convinced that something which doesn't exist must be
>>there nevertheless isn't an uncommon occurence. Especially in software
>>development, cf Kees Cooks witchhunt for the mass of accidentally
>>forgotten breaks in the Linux source which didn't exist but he
>>nevertheless dutifully found.
>
> I'm sure that gibberish meant something to you when you wrote it. Perhaps
> something got lost in translation from German.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but you're nothing but an idiot repeating
phrases from several years ago. Have a nice life.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Do you also still program in assembly code for the same reason?
ncurses, in particular the panel library on top of it, saves me from
having to try to write basically the same functionality as panel within
my application. Maybe you've never done anything more complicated in a
tui than changing colors?

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 16:09:36 +0000

Your lack of response , particularly to the example code I wrote, says it all.

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:14:13 -0700
Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>Dozi...@thekennel.co writes:
>> On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:40:43 +0000
>> Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>>Dozi...@thekennel.co writes:
>> Thats your opinion, plenty of others may differ. However using escape codes
>> I can change colours and effects multiple times in a single printf but with
>> curses it would be god knows how many API calls to do the same thing.
>>
>>>"Being faster" is still a non-point. If it was fast enough on VAXen or
>>>25Mhz PCs - and it was - it's going to be much more than 'fast enough'
>>>on the hardware of today.
>>
>> Any decent programmer cares about efficiency.
>
>Do you also still program in assembly code for the same reason?

Its non portable, but yes, I have done in the past for that reason.

>ncurses, in particular the panel library on top of it, saves me from
>having to try to write basically the same functionality as panel within
>my application. Maybe you've never done anything more complicated in a
>tui than changing colors?

For complicated windowing functionality using curses makes sense. For just
changing colours or other simple ansi code operations then its overkill and
using just the codes also leads to simpler code as my example in another post
demonstrates.

[James Kuyper]

On 11/12/21 5:41 AM, Dozi...@thekennel.co wrote:
...

> Its spelt arsehole, unless you're refering to a donkey. And no, its not the

Nearly 2/3 of all of the native speakers of English speak the American
variant of that language, for which your preferred spelling is
incorrect, and his is correct. If you didn't want to have so many people
speaking such a wide variety of versions of your language, you shouldn't
have started a colonial empire in the first place.

Can you cite any rule obligating him to write according to the rules of
British English? Since the treaty of Paris (1783), we're no longer bound
by any such rules. :-)

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 11:58:09 -0500
James Kuyper <james...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>On 11/12/21 5:41 AM, Dozi...@thekennel.co wrote:

>....

>> Its spelt arsehole, unless you're refering to a donkey. And no, its not the
>
>Nearly 2/3 of all of the native speakers of English speak the American
>variant of that language, for which your preferred spelling is

More people speak spanish in south american than in spain but if I wanted
to learn proper spanish I'd do it in Madrid, not Mexico City or Managua.

>Can you cite any rule obligating him to write according to the rules of
>British English? Since the treaty of Paris (1783), we're no longer bound
>by any such rules. :-)

No, but there's also no rule I can't correct dialect spelling for the proper
spelling :)

[pk]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 10:41:24 -0000 (UTC), Dozi...@thekennel.co wrote:

> Its spelt arsehole

It's spelt "it's". You should probably write correctly yourself before
correcting others (even if those others are, indeed, real arseholes).

[James Kuyper]

On 11/12/21 12:06 PM, Dozi...@thekennel.co wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 11:58:09 -0500
> James Kuyper <james...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:

.

>> Nearly 2/3 of all of the native speakers of English speak the American
>> variant of that language, for which your preferred spelling is
>
> More people speak spanish in south american than in spain but if I wanted
> to learn proper spanish I'd do it in Madrid, not Mexico City or Managua.

If you want to learn proper Mexican or Columbian Spanish, going to
Madrid won't help.
Mexico, Columbia, and Argentina all have more native speakers of Spanish
than Spain itself, and the US has almost as many. The Spaniards have
lost control of their language even more thoroughly than the English have.

...

> No, but there's also no rule I can't correct dialect spelling for the proper
> spelling :)

You're correcting one dialect's spelling to a different dialect's spelling.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

A classic example of Muphry's Law.

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

Arguably thats grammar, not spelling, but fair point.

[Dozi...@thekennel.co]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 20:13:04 -0500

James Kuyper <james...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>On 11/12/21 12:06 PM, Dozi...@thekennel.co wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 11:58:09 -0500
>> James Kuyper <james...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:

>..

>>> Nearly 2/3 of all of the native speakers of English speak the American
>>> variant of that language, for which your preferred spelling is
>>
>> More people speak spanish in south american than in spain but if I wanted
>> to learn proper spanish I'd do it in Madrid, not Mexico City or Managua.
>
>If you want to learn proper Mexican or Columbian Spanish, going to
>Madrid won't help.
>Mexico, Columbia, and Argentina all have more native speakers of Spanish
>than Spain itself, and the US has almost as many. The Spaniards have
>lost control of their language even more thoroughly than the English have.

No doubt true, but point still stands.

>
>....

>> No, but there's also no rule I can't correct dialect spelling for the proper
>> spelling :)
>
>You're correcting one dialect's spelling to a different dialect's spelling.

Dialects are derived from the standard language.

[Meredith Montgomery]

gaz...@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) writes:

> In article <smipnq$1kki$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, <Dozi...@thekennel.co> wrote:
> ...
>>>Could you please refrain from attaching your unrelated opinion
>>>statements to texts I wrote? The given situation is such that I have to
>>
>>No, I couldn't. Newsflash - this is usenet. If you want a private conversation
>>use email otherwise stop whining.
>
> Your position is identical to the following exchange:
>
> Me: Would you please stop shitting on my lawn?
>
> You: No, I won't. This is America! There is nothing you can do to stop me
> from shitting on your lawn. Stop whining!
>
> Me: Yes, you are right. But you're still an asshole.

Lol. I loved it. Meanwhile in Australia, speaking of lawn...

Australian man interrupts PM Morrison to say 'get off my lawn' [...]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t17O2AKa2FU

[Meredith Montgomery]

Dozi...@thekennel.co writes:

> On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 20:13:04 -0500
> James Kuyper <james...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>On 11/12/21 12:06 PM, Dozi...@thekennel.co wrote:
>>> On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 11:58:09 -0500
>>> James Kuyper <james...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>..
>>>> Nearly 2/3 of all of the native speakers of English speak the American
>>>> variant of that language, for which your preferred spelling is
>>>
>>> More people speak spanish in south american than in spain but if I wanted
>>> to learn proper spanish I'd do it in Madrid, not Mexico City or Managua.
>>

>> If you want to learn proper Mexican or [Colombian] Spanish, going to

>> Madrid won't help. Mexico, Columbia, and Argentina all have more
>> native speakers of Spanish than Spain itself, and the US has almost
>> as many. The Spaniards have lost control of their language even more
>> thoroughly than the English have.
>
> No doubt true, but point still stands.

The point, if any, must be implementation-defined. Once I was in
Managua and I said exactly that:

--- More people speak Spanish in South America than in Spain, but if I
wanted to learn proper Spanish I'd do it in Madrid, not Mexico City or
Managua.

I was almost interrrupted:

--- What you mean, m'am? ``Proper Spanish'' is defined here. GNU's
not UNIX.

But, of course, I didn't back down.

[James Kuyper]

On 11/13/21 5:00 AM, Dozi...@thekennel.co wrote:
...

> Dialects are derived from the standard language.

The only thing that makes a particular dialect "standard" is
institutional support, such as when an Empire makes use of that dialect
mandatory in official documents. The concept has no basis in the science
of linguistics. But an Empire loses the power to derogate another
dialect as "substandard" when it loses control of the territory where
that dialect is spoken.

[Thomas Jahns]

On 2021-11-12 17:58, James Kuyper wrote:
> On 11/12/21 5:41 AM, Dozi...@thekennel.co wrote:
> ...
>> Its spelt arsehole, unless you're refering to a donkey. And no, its not the
>
> Nearly 2/3 of all of the native speakers of English speak the American
> variant of that language, for which your preferred spelling is
> incorrect, and his is correct. If you didn't want to have so many people
> speaking such a wide variety of versions of your language, you shouldn't
> have started a colonial empire in the first place.

If only there was any process to update spelling. I can only speak for my native
language, but German is spoken in multiple countries and there are active
efforts to keep the written language having some correspondence to the spoken
one. That obviously is not easily accepted by anyone suffering from 'grumpy old
man syndrome'[1] and the far higher number of English-speaking countries would
make the effort even harder, but if you could mutually agree that you are
speaking more or less the same language, perhaps some better approach than
sticking to 16th century norms makes sense?

I assume there is even more lecturer's for English language texts at public
universities than for Geman, so people might demand to get more than preserving
the status quo out of employing so many. ;-)

Thomas

[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_orthography_reform_of_1996>