argh macs are becoming penny extractors.

42 views
Skip to first unread message

Siri Cruise

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 12:31:03 AMMar 13
to
Years ago I pushed our company to use Macs. Core Image,
Quicktime, Apache, and so much software we needed came
preinstalled. XCode was okay, especially when it could edit RTFs.
And we previously used MPW on System 7.

I tried to use telnet a few days and it's gone. Telnet is
programmer tool that let's programmer explore most network
protocols by hand. It's real useful for programmers and doesn't
cost other customers when they don't use it.

I lost my 10.7 laptop which finally went the way of all silicon
flesh. I got 11.6 replacement, and my life has been hell on it.
Nothing is straightforward. XCode is hopeless. We've already
partially ported to Linux with ffmpeg replacing the dead
Quicktime and imagemagick Core Image.

I've come to realise MacOS has been Googlised. It's all AI which
decides it knows what I want to do instead of letting me do what
I want. Odd but it often decides I want to give Apple money.

I liked GUitarBand but I haven't found if it's still available.
Inkscape is broken with no other free SVG edittor, SeaShore
screws up pixel hits so pencil is broken. Otherwise there's not
much left for developping software on Macs. I think it's time to
argue to our company to abandon Macs except to run VirtualBox to
run Linux.

--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
I am an Andrea Doria sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

Your Name

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 1:38:35 AMMar 13
to
On 2022-03-13 05:30:49 +0000, Siri Cruise said:
>
> Years ago I pushed our company to use Macs. Core Image,
> Quicktime, Apache, and so much software we needed came
> preinstalled. XCode was okay, especially when it could edit RTFs.
> And we previously used MPW on System 7.
>
> I tried to use telnet a few days and it's gone. Telnet is
> programmer tool that let's programmer explore most network
> protocols by hand. It's real useful for programmers and doesn't
> cost other customers when they don't use it.
>
> I lost my 10.7 laptop which finally went the way of all silicon
> flesh. I got 11.6 replacement, and my life has been hell on it.
> Nothing is straightforward. XCode is hopeless. We've already
> partially ported to Linux with ffmpeg replacing the dead
> Quicktime and imagemagick Core Image.
>
> I've come to realise MacOS has been Googlised. It's all AI which
> decides it knows what I want to do instead of letting me do what
> I want. Odd but it often decides I want to give Apple money.
>
> I liked GUitarBand but I haven't found if it's still available.
> Inkscape is broken with no other free SVG edittor,

According to the website, Inkscape works with Mac OS 10.11 - 12. If you
are having issues, you need ot take it up with the developer. It's
certainly got bugger all to do with Apple.



> SeaShore screws up pixel hits so pencil is broken.

As above.



> Otherwise there's not much left for developping software on Macs. I
> think it's time to argue to our company to abandon Macs except to run
> VirtualBox to
> run Linux.

Or, you can take your continual whining to another platofrm and leave us alone.

johnson

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 7:47:06 AMMar 13
to
["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.mac.system.]
On 2022-03-13, Siri Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Years ago I pushed our company to use Macs. Core Image,
> Quicktime, Apache, and so much software we needed came
> preinstalled. XCode was okay, especially when it could edit RTFs.
> And we previously used MPW on System 7.
>
> I tried to use telnet a few days and it's gone. Telnet is
> programmer tool that let's programmer explore most network
> protocols by hand. It's real useful for programmers and doesn't
> cost other customers when they don't use it.
>

The real 'programmer tool' is nc(1)

A telnet substitute using this:
nc -ct example.com 23

vallor

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 2:18:22 PMMar 13
to
[blurb snipped]

I'll summarize:

Typing "telnet" is reflex for oldsters,
and proper in that context. Have a heart for those
of us (tinu?) that had to exist on the pre-ssh
Internet. And telnet(1) was used to test pretty much
anything having to do with tcp.

Meanwhile, oldsters might well "man nc" because really,
telnet is deprecated.

--
-v

%

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 2:51:08 PMMar 13
to
On 2022-03-13 11:18 a.m., vallor wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 11:47:01 GMT, johnson wrote:

you're a little late

vallor

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 4:22:28 PMMar 13
to
Late for what?

fu2: cola

Lewis

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 6:24:45 PMMar 13
to
Was. As in, in the past.

Yes, I used telnet a lot in the 80s and 90s, but not since.

--
Oh never resist an impulse, Sabrina. Especially if it's terrible.

Keith Thompson

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 6:41:11 PMMar 13
to
Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
> In message <j96qr9F...@mid.individual.net> vallor <val...@cultnix.org> wrote:
[...]
>> Typing "telnet" is reflex for oldsters,
>> and proper in that context. Have a heart for those
>> of us (tinu?) that had to exist on the pre-ssh
>> Internet. And telnet(1) was used to test pretty much
>> anything having to do with tcp.
>
> Was. As in, in the past.
>
> Yes, I used telnet a lot in the 80s and 90s, but not since.

I still often use "telnet hostname 22" as a way to test whether a
server's ssh daemon is running (and what version it is). (I use Ubuntu,
so whatever Apple has done to deprecate telnet doesn't affect me.)

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.T...@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

Your Name

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 7:57:39 PMMar 13
to
On 2022-03-13 22:41:04 +0000, Keith Thompson said:
> Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
>> In message <j96qr9F...@mid.individual.net> vallor
>> <val...@cultnix.org> wrote:
> [...]
>>> Typing "telnet" is reflex for oldsters,
>>> and proper in that context. Have a heart for those
>>> of us (tinu?) that had to exist on the pre-ssh
>>> Internet. And telnet(1) was used to test pretty much
>>> anything having to do with tcp.
>>
>> Was. As in, in the past.
>>
>> Yes, I used telnet a lot in the 80s and 90s, but not since.
>
> I still often use "telnet hostname 22" as a way to test whether a
> server's ssh daemon is running (and what version it is). (I use Ubuntu,
> so whatever Apple has done to deprecate telnet doesn't affect me.)

As someone else posted, the replacement command is nc

macOS has a much better tool than telnet
for testing remote server connectivity

<https://www.igorkromin.net/index.php/2018/07/12/macos-has-a-much-better-tool-than-telnet-for-testing-remote-server-connectivity/>



The telnet utility has been gone since MacOS High Sierra (10.13), so
those only finding out it's missing now were either using an even older
version of MacOS recently or rarely actually use the command.



Lewis

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 8:06:27 PMMar 13
to
In message <8735jl5...@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.T...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
>> In message <j96qr9F...@mid.individual.net> vallor <val...@cultnix.org> wrote:
> [...]
>>> Typing "telnet" is reflex for oldsters,
>>> and proper in that context. Have a heart for those
>>> of us (tinu?) that had to exist on the pre-ssh
>>> Internet. And telnet(1) was used to test pretty much
>>> anything having to do with tcp.
>>
>> Was. As in, in the past.
>>
>> Yes, I used telnet a lot in the 80s and 90s, but not since.

> I still often use "telnet hostname 22" as a way to test whether a
> server's ssh daemon is running (and what version it is).

Why?

openssl s_client -connec hostname:22

gives much more useful information:

SSL-Session:
Protocol : TLSv1.2
Cipher : 0000
Session-ID:
Session-ID-ctx:
Master-Key:
Start Time: 1647216246
Timeout : 7200 (sec)
Verify return code: 0 (ok)

--
W is for WINNIE embedded in ice
X is for XERXES devoured by mice

Keith Thompson

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 8:46:52 PMMar 13
to
Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
> In message <8735jl5...@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.T...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
>>> In message <j96qr9F...@mid.individual.net> vallor <val...@cultnix.org> wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> Typing "telnet" is reflex for oldsters,
>>>> and proper in that context. Have a heart for those
>>>> of us (tinu?) that had to exist on the pre-ssh
>>>> Internet. And telnet(1) was used to test pretty much
>>>> anything having to do with tcp.
>>>
>>> Was. As in, in the past.
>>>
>>> Yes, I used telnet a lot in the 80s and 90s, but not since.
>
>> I still often use "telnet hostname 22" as a way to test whether a
>> server's ssh daemon is running (and what version it is).
>
> Why?
>
> openssl s_client -connec hostname:22

You mean "-connect".

> gives much more useful information:
>
> SSL-Session:
> Protocol : TLSv1.2
> Cipher : 0000
> Session-ID:
> Session-ID-ctx:
> Master-Key:
> Start Time: 1647216246
> Timeout : 7200 (sec)
> Verify return code: 0 (ok)

I use "telnet" because the command is easy to remember and it gives me
the information I'm interested in:

$ telnet [hostname deleted] 22
Trying [ip address deleted]...
Connected to [hostname deleted].
Escape character is '^]'.
SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_7.9p1 Debian-10+deb10u2
^]
telnet> Connection closed.
$

Your Name

unread,
Mar 13, 2022, 10:08:54 PMMar 13
to
There are a few options for installing telnet yourself.


Anssi Saari

unread,
Mar 14, 2022, 11:46:24 AMMar 14
to
Siri Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> writes:

> I've come to realise MacOS has been Googlised. It's all AI which
> decides it knows what I want to do instead of letting me do what
> I want. Odd but it often decides I want to give Apple money.

Funny. I had a Powerbook in 2006 and felt the same. Well, not the AI
stuff, rather about the PTBs (or PHBs?) who at least used to decide
these things.

Anyways,, you were in Apple's target market until you weren't. I wasn't
even back in 2006. Although I dug out the Powerbook recently to digitize
some vinyls as I also have an old Firewire sound card and the 2006
Powerbook works fine for running old Audacity from 2014.

Popping Mad

unread,
Mar 14, 2022, 12:55:46 PMMar 14
to
On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
> telnet is deprecated.

except when it is not

Alan

unread,
Mar 14, 2022, 1:19:33 PMMar 14
to
Say something more meaningful than that, huh?

Mut...@dastardlyhq.com

unread,
Mar 15, 2022, 9:32:06 AMMar 15
to
If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
there's little point trying to explain it to you.

Scott Lurndal

unread,
Mar 15, 2022, 10:28:04 AMMar 15
to
I'd point out that nc (nee netcat) has been a useful network debugging
tool for a quarter of a century. telnet (as a protocol) is, as I am sure
you are aware, quite insecure. Unix telnet also open source, so one could
quite simply compile it on MacOS if one really requires it and nc
isn't sufficient.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netcat#Ports_and_reimplementations

Kenny McCormack

unread,
Mar 15, 2022, 11:27:18 AMMar 15
to
In article <Pn1YJ.195046$oF2.1...@fx10.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net> wrote:
...
>I'd point out that nc (nee netcat) has been a useful network debugging
>tool for a quarter of a century. telnet (as a protocol) is, as I am sure
>you are aware, quite insecure. Unix telnet also open source, so one could
>quite simply compile it on MacOS if one really requires it and nc
>isn't sufficient.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netcat#Ports_and_reimplementations

I totally agree with this post. Incidentally, for Keith's benefit, here is
the netcat equivalent of his telnet command:

netcat -w1 localhost 22

Anyway, just to add one comment about nc/netcat, and that is that the one
bad thing about it is that there are 70 million subtly incompatible
versions of it floating around.

--
Q: How much do dead batteries cost?

A: Nothing. They are free of charge.

Alan

unread,
Mar 15, 2022, 12:40:31 PMMar 15
to
Telnet HAS been deprecated in MacOS

If you don't know what deprecated means, I can't help you.

Lewis

unread,
Mar 15, 2022, 2:34:54 PMMar 15
to
Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
reasons not to use it.

I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
for the first time.

--
Commander: "Seems odd you'd name your ship after a battle you were on the wrong
side of."
Mal: "May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Kenny McCormack

unread,
Mar 15, 2022, 3:58:03 PMMar 15
to
In article <slrnt31n29....@zephyrus.local>,
Lewis <g.k...@gmail.don-t-email-me.com> wrote:
...
>Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
>reasons not to use it.

I think you are confusing the telnet program and the telnet protocol (and
daemon). Yes, the concept of running the telnet daemon to allow remote
access is pretty much dead (although I still have a set of machines that
still use it), but the client program is still alive and well and useful.

And, yes, I do mean to indicate that there is a difference between the
telnet protocol and the telnet daemon.

>I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
>for the first time.

Good for you! Treat yourself to a cookie!

--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough
men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell

Keith Thompson

unread,
Mar 15, 2022, 3:58:19 PMMar 15
to
Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
> In message <t0q4gh$9lt$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Mut...@dastardlyhq.com <Mut...@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>
>>>> except when it is not
>>>
>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>
>> If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>> there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>
> Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
> reasons not to use it.
>
> I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
> for the first time.

Nobody is suggesting continuing to use the telnet port (23) or protocol.

The telnet *command* was originally designed to be used with the telnet
port and protocol, but with the ability to specify a non-default port it
can still be useful as a quick and dirty way to query a different port,
without using the telnet protocol at all.

For example, "telnet hostname 22" tells you whether "hostname" is
running an ssh server, and prints a string indicating the version of the
server.

Apparently Apple has decided to deprecate the telnet command. I've seen
no indication that anyone else has done so (though I haven't done any
research).

And yes, there are ways to do the same thing with other commands. I'll
probably continue using telnet for this purpose just because of muscle
memory.

Lewis

unread,
Mar 15, 2022, 8:22:42 PMMar 15
to
In message <87o8273...@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.T...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
>> In message <t0q4gh$9lt$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Mut...@dastardlyhq.com <Mut...@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>>> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>>
>>>>> except when it is not
>>>>
>>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>>
>>> If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>>> there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>>
>> Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
>> reasons not to use it.
>>
>> I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
>> for the first time.

> Nobody is suggesting continuing to use the telnet port (23) or protocol.

> The telnet *command* was originally designed to be used with the telnet
> port and protocol, but with the ability to specify a non-default port it
> can still be useful as a quick and dirty way to query a different port,
> without using the telnet protocol at all.

There are better tools.

> Apparently Apple has decided to deprecate the telnet command. I've seen
> no indication that anyone else has done so (though I haven't done any
> research).

If it's important to you it is trivial to install. Hint: There's no ftp
either. Nor is there python 2. Don't think there's perl either, but it's
been decades since I used perl.

--
What's another word for Thesaurus?

Keith Thompson

unread,
Mar 15, 2022, 8:28:04 PMMar 15
to
Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
> In message <87o8273...@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.T...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
>>> In message <t0q4gh$9lt$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Mut...@dastardlyhq.com <Mut...@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>>>> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> except when it is not
>>>>>
>>>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>>>
>>>> If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>>>> there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>>>
>>> Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
>>> reasons not to use it.
>>>
>>> I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
>>> for the first time.
>
>> Nobody is suggesting continuing to use the telnet port (23) or protocol.
>
>> The telnet *command* was originally designed to be used with the telnet
>> port and protocol, but with the ability to specify a non-default port it
>> can still be useful as a quick and dirty way to query a different port,
>> without using the telnet protocol at all.
>
> There are better tools.

No doubt. That wasn't my point.

>> Apparently Apple has decided to deprecate the telnet command. I've seen
>> no indication that anyone else has done so (though I haven't done any
>> research).
>
> If it's important to you it is trivial to install. Hint: There's no ftp
> either. Nor is there python 2. Don't think there's perl either, but it's
> been decades since I used perl.

I already have a telnet command on my Ubuntu system. (I don't remember
whether it was preinstalled.) If I were a Mac user, I could either
install telnet or use something else.

James K. Lowden

unread,
Mar 15, 2022, 8:32:01 PMMar 15
to
On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 21:30:49 -0800
Siri Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think it's time to argue to our company to abandon Macs except
> to run VirtualBox to run Linux.

The gadget you want is Multipass.

https://ubuntu.com/server/docs/virtualization-multipass

My information might be out of date, but 5 years ago VirtualBox used
25% of the CPU just sitting idle. I do the majority of my work on
Linux using a Mac as an X11 server and GUI. I've been happy with
Multipass for several months, although VMware is still installed and
sees use from time to time.

--jkl

William Ahern

unread,
Mar 15, 2022, 11:45:10 PMMar 15
to
Siri Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Years ago I pushed our company to use Macs. Core Image,
> Quicktime, Apache, and so much software we needed came
> preinstalled. XCode was okay, especially when it could edit RTFs.
> And we previously used MPW on System 7.
>
> I tried to use telnet a few days and it's gone. Telnet is
> programmer tool that let's programmer explore most network
> protocols by hand. It's real useful for programmers and doesn't
> cost other customers when they don't use it.

Long ago Apple began the process of deprecating most commandline utilities,
libraries, and other third-party FOSS software as they were unable or
unwilling to keep them updated. Every release various things disappear, but
it's been a long, drawn-out process. One of the most intrusive changes, even
for those buildings native macOS GUI apps, was the removal of OpenSSL
headers, but because it was OpenSSL 0.9.8 (difficult and some cases
impossible to backport security fixes for in an API- and ABI-compatible
manner) nobody could reasonably fault them for it.

I'm surprised you're only now noticing. I also noticed the recent removal of
telnet, but it wasn't entirely unexpected. (Still annoying for those of us
habituated to telnet'ing to line-based services while hacking, debugging,
and poking around.) Notably next up on the chopping block, at least for the
base install, is Python:
https://www.macrumors.com/2022/01/28/apple-removing-python-2-in-macos-12-3.
I never use Python so won't notice. There are quite a few macOS utilites
implemented in Perl, so hopefully Perl won't be going away anytime soon, but
it's also technically deprecated. Tcl was removed awhile ago.

IME working at various tech companies using MacBooks as standard issue, most
developers use Brew to supplement or replace the installed environment. I
prefer MacPorts, but Brew is so ubiquitous that it's even how some teams
publish internal (nominally open source'd) tools.

> I lost my 10.7 laptop which finally went the way of all silicon
> flesh. I got 11.6 replacement, and my life has been hell on it.
> Nothing is straightforward. XCode is hopeless. We've already
> partially ported to Linux with ffmpeg replacing the dead
> Quicktime and imagemagick Core Image.

I recently began doing GUI development on macOS and I must say that, even
though much of the process is confusing and under-documented (in general,
not just the command-line interfaces), the XCode toolchain still works well
from the command-line and is clearly maintained by the toolchain engineers.
I can both build fat binaries (CFLAGS += -arch arm64 -arch x86_64) and sign
the resulting binaries (codesign(1)) from a relatively simple Makefile.

Jim Gibson

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 12:39:22 AMMar 16
to
On Mar 15, 2022 at 5:22:38 PM PDT, "Lewis" <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me>
wrote:
>
>
> If it's important to you it is trivial to install. Hint: There's no ftp
> either. Nor is there python 2. Don't think there's perl either, but it's
> been decades since I used perl.

% /usr/bin/perl -v

This is perl 5, version 30, subversion 3 (v5.30.3) built for
darwin-thread-multi-2level
(with 2 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail)

Copyright 1987-2020, Larry Wall

Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the
GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit.

Complete documentation for Perl, including FAQ lists, should be found on
this system using "man perl" or "perldoc perl". If you have access to the
Internet, point your browser at http://www.perl.org/, the Perl Home Page.
--
Jim Gibson

vallor

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 2:35:12 AMMar 16
to
On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:27:58 -0700, Keith Thompson wrote:

> I already have a telnet command on my Ubuntu system. (I don't remember
> whether it was preinstalled.) If I were a Mac user, I could either
> install telnet or use something else.

If it doesn't rub them the wrong way to do so, in bash,
they could:

$ alias telnet='nc -v'

or other shell expression of their choosing. Then when they try

$ telnet mail.example.com 25

It will act like one expects, because "nc -v mail.example.com 25"
is the valid nc command.

But any further than that, some users may want to just learn
nc, which can use UDP sockets, use Unix sockets, and can
listen for connections as well as create them.

Or even...

$ telnet() { echo Please use nc.; }

fu2: comp.sys.mac.system because it really is specific to MacOS.

And finally: The man page for nc on our iMac has some
Apple-specific options, which I assume are handy for crafty
systems programming on Macs.

[--apple-delegate-pid pid] [--apple-delegate-uuid uuid]
[--apple-ext-bk-idle] [--apple-nowakefromsleep]
[--apple-ecn mode]

--
-v

Mut...@dastardlyhq.com

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 5:54:58 AMMar 16
to
Or just install it with brew. netcat is a sledgehammer for a nut in most cases
and has long been superceeded by wireshark for packet sniffing anyway.


Mut...@dastardlyhq.com

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 5:55:46 AMMar 16
to
On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 18:34:49 -0000 (UTC)
Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>In message <t0q4gh$9lt$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Mut...@dastardlyhq.com
><Mut...@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>
>>>> except when it is not
>>>>
>>>
>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>
>> If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>> there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>
>Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
>reasons not to use it.
>
>I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
>for the first time.

Apparently you don't understand the difference between the telnet server and
client. Thanks for playing.

johnson

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 6:44:22 AMMar 16
to
["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.mac.system.]
you could make a shell alias or function

Lewis

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 7:14:43 AMMar 16
to
In message <87k0cu4...@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.T...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I were a Mac user, I could either install telnet or use something
> else.

Then why the fuck are you complaining that there is no telnet client in
macOS?


--
Schroedinger's Cat is <blink>not</blink> dead.
The only allowed use of the BLINK tag

Rainer Weikusat

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 10:19:10 AMMar 16
to
Netcat is a mostly a tool for connecting and talking to TCP servers. For
historical reasons, it's also a port scanner. It's positively incapable
of packet sniffing.

Rainer Weikusat

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 10:21:19 AMMar 16
to
Windows, obviously, since ages. The last time I looked (years ago), it
still shipped with a telnet client but - for some reasons entirly beyond
human comprehension - had to be enabled before it could be used.

James Kuyper

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 11:12:20 AMMar 16
to
On 3/16/22 07:14, Lewis wrote:
> In message <87k0cu4...@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.T...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If I were a Mac user, I could either install telnet or use something
>> else.
>
> Then why the fuck are you complaining that there is no telnet client in
> macOS?

Are you sure you aren't confusing him with someone else. I did a search
of this thread and didn't fine any such complaints coming from Keith.
The only such complaint I did see was the one that started this thread,
from Siri Cruise.

Ben Bacarisse

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 11:42:54 AMMar 16
to
Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:

> In message <87k0cu4...@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.T...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If I were a Mac user, I could either install telnet or use something
>> else.
>
> Then why the fuck are you complaining that there is no telnet client in
> macOS?

He isn't. Get you facts straight, particularly if you are going to go
off on one.

--
Ben.

Lewis

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 12:16:20 PMMar 16
to
Could be then. Still seems odd since the thread is about telnet on macOS
(or rather the lack of it) for someone who does not use the Mac to jump
in.


--
'It's easy to hold everything in common when no one's got anything.'

James Kuyper

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 12:24:14 PMMar 16
to
This thread is posted not only on comp.sys.mac.system, but also on two
other groups that are not Mac-specific - in fact, the original message
was posted only to those other two groups. The thread drifted over to a
general discussion about telnet being obsolete, and he joined the thread
to comment on that issue.

Kenny McCormack

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 1:00:29 PMMar 16
to
In article <t0t2v9$frf$1...@dont-email.me>,
James Kuyper <james...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
...
>> Could be then. Still seems odd since the thread is about telnet on
>> macOS (or rather the lack of it) for someone who does not use the Mac
>> to jump in.
>
>
>This thread is posted not only on comp.sys.mac.system, but also on two
>other groups that are not Mac-specific - in fact, the original message
>was posted only to those other two groups. The thread drifted over to
>a general discussion about telnet being obsolete, and he joined the
>thread to comment on that issue.

This is what happens when people don't change Subject titles as a thread
progresses. I cannot stress how important it is to do that.

Also note: I'm reading and posting from comp.unix.programmer.

--
If there is anything more pathetic than Dr. Donald Trump, MD, giving out medical
advice, it is the pathetic followers of Dr. Trump trying to implement said advice.

Keith Thompson

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 2:11:40 PMMar 16
to
Exactly.

Lewis, try being less rude. You might also consider paying more
attention to who said what, but that's no excuse.

Mut...@dastardlyhq.com

unread,
Mar 17, 2022, 6:07:28 AMMar 17
to
On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:21:10 +0000
Rainer Weikusat <rwei...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>Keith Thompson <Keith.S.T...@gmail.com> writes:
>> For example, "telnet hostname 22" tells you whether "hostname" is
>> running an ssh server, and prints a string indicating the version of the
>> server.
>>
>> Apparently Apple has decided to deprecate the telnet command. I've seen
>> no indication that anyone else has done so (though I haven't done any
>> research).
>
>Windows, obviously, since ages. The last time I looked (years ago), it
>still shipped with a telnet client but - for some reasons entirly beyond
>human comprehension - had to be enabled before it could be used.

The Windows telnet client was and remains junk - line mode doesn't work
properly. This would be easy to fix so clearly they never wanted it to work
properly.

bo...@dev.null

unread,
Mar 18, 2022, 9:32:29 AMMar 18
to
Netcat is not an sniffing tool, it's a swiss knife for networking.

You can create tunnels for proxying and so on.

Nicolas George

unread,
Mar 18, 2022, 10:18:05 AMMar 18
to
bo...@dev.null, dans le message
<slrnt392d...@darkstar.home.local>, a écrit :
> Netcat is not an sniffing tool, it's a swiss knife for networking.

At best, netcat is a letter opener for networking. If you want a Swiss Army
knife for networking, look into socat.

Kenny McCormack

unread,
Mar 18, 2022, 11:19:56 AMMar 18
to
In article <62349499$0$29481$426a...@news.free.fr>,
Nicolas George <nicolas$geo...@salle-s.org> wrote:
>bo...@dev.null, dans le message
><slrnt392d...@darkstar.home.local>, a crit:
>> Netcat is not an sniffing tool, it's a swiss knife for networking.
>
>At best, netcat is a letter opener for networking. If you want a Swiss Army
>knife for networking, look into socat.

Indeed. I use socat when I need to do things with Unix sockets (e.g.,
fixing the bug in modern X servers where they don't listen for tcp
connections anymore). But I still use netcat for the usual TCP/UDP stuff.

As I mentioned, the real problem with netcat is that there are 70 million
versions of it - so you never really know what any particular version can
or can't do (and, yes, this makes it hard to argue with strangers on Usenet
about what it can and can't do). That said, I think I saw someone here
post (in defense of netcat) that it does do Unix sockets. Maybe I
mis-interpreted.

Anyway, socat could be seen as just yet another member of the "netcat
family". Also, from what I can tell, something called "ncat" is actually
the best representative of that family of programs.

--
"If our country is going broke, let it be from feeding the poor and caring for
the elderly. And not from pampering the rich and fighting wars for them."

--Living Blue in a Red State--

Nicolas George

unread,
Mar 18, 2022, 11:31:55 AMMar 18
to
Kenny McCormack, dans le message <t127uo$1ppm1$3...@news.xmission.com>, a
écrit :
> fixing the bug in modern X servers where they don't listen for tcp

Have you considered adding “-listen tcp” to /etc/X11/xinit/xserverrc or the
equivalent for your display manager?
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages