Dennis Muren and the first 2 Star Wars films
x01001x
the FX for "Star Wars: A New Hope," and "Star Wars: The Empire Strikes
Back?" I know all visual effects were done by Dennis Muren (the
mastermind behind the dinosaurs of Jurassic Park) on a CRAY
SUPERCOMPUTER.
Eugene Miya
--
Keith Thompson
Which version of the movies, the orginal releases of 1977 and 1980, or
the newer versions with the re-done effects?
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks...@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
Eugene Miya
Keith Thompson <ks...@mib.org> wrote:
>x01001x <xem...@softhome.net> writes:
>> Is there any DETAILED information on what software was used to make
>> the FX for "Star Wars: A New Hope," and "Star Wars: The Empire Strikes
>> Back?" I know all visual effects were done by Dennis Muren (the
>> mastermind behind the dinosaurs of Jurassic Park) on a CRAY
>> SUPERCOMPUTER.
>
>Which version of the movies, the orginal releases of 1977 and 1980, or
>the newer versions with the re-done effects?
Lucasfilm uses in house developed software, and in some cases hardware
(like the EditDroid), some of it legacy with Pixar when that was part
of the Computer Division of Lucasfilm (greater drift with time).
It has never been released, and has limited open publication information
about it. Some of this stuff was moved from the Ranch down to the news
Letterman campus of the firm in the SF Presidio.
--
x01001x
> Lucasfilm has never owned a Cray.
The cray belonged to Industrial Light and Magic (ILM Ltd.)
Dennis Muren personally supervised the close-up photography of the
miniatures of the Tie Fighters, X-Wings, and Death Star trench in A
New Hope.
Also, he supervised the opening shots of the Star Destroyer sucking up
the Rebellion ship, and focused on things like camera-angles.
I *KNOW* that in Return of the Jedi, the speeder bike sequences are
basically close-up shots of miniature dolls on bikes.
Puppeteers moved their heads around with little wires, and there was a
blue-screen behind. It is a big part of Star Wars lore that the
transition from Empire Strikes back to Return of the Jedi
incorporated Lucasfilm and ILM hiring LOTS of puppeteers, as if they
were Jim Henson Company or something, instead of the raw tech and
models look of the first two Star Wars films.
However, regarding the blue-screen, I am not sure if a blue-screen was
used in A New Hope, however I am thinking a Cray must have been used
somewhere.
I had another post regarding a CRAY being used on THE LAST
STARFIGHTER.
This is a great flick, however Star Wars is the main masterpiece of FX
and I believe a CRAY SUPERCOMPUTER was the main bit of equipment used
by ILM at this time.
Please supply more details regarding the Information Processing of
Movie FX on Cray Supercomputers from about 1975-1983.
Eugene Miya
In article <1186658048.8...@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
x01001x <xem...@softhome.net> wrote:
>The cray belonged to Industrial Light and Magic (ILM Ltd.)
ILM has never owned a Cray.
>I *KNOW* that in Return of the Jedi, the speeder bike sequences are
>basically close-up shots of miniature dolls on bikes.
>Puppeteers
Yeah, I plan to visit the redwoods in 2 weekends for work.
>used in A New Hope, however I am thinking a Cray must have been used
>somewhere.
>This is a great flick, however Star Wars is the main masterpiece of FX
>and I believe a CRAY SUPERCOMPUTER was the main bit of equipment used
>by ILM at this time.
You can believe whatever you want.
Lucasfilm borrowed a Cray from CRI as a proof of concept trial for a 2.5
min. short titled Andre and Wally B. I know the people who did this.
CRI was going to sell a used/2nd hand system back then (a 1) for $1 less
than $1M simply because it was Lucas. This is in the era before ELs.
They dropped the deal when they found out what the annual maintenance
cost was. No vectorization was used. Lucas lucked out as Bell Labs
just ported their C compiler and gave it to CRI. I think COS was the OS.
>Please supply more details regarding the Information Processing of
>Movie FX on Cray Supercomputers from about 1975-1983.
Pick up issues of ACM/SIGGRAPH Computer Graphics and you will see that I
presided over the Bay Area Chapter between 1986-1988.
Nelson Max did most of the film making on Crays in the era from '75'83.
His unclassified work such as Carla's Island is available if lacking plot.
His classified work still requires a Q clearance to view.
--
x01001x
> >I *KNOW* that in Return of the Jedi, the speeder bike sequences are
> >basically close-up shots of miniature dolls on bikes.
> >Puppeteers
>
> Yeah, I plan to visit the redwoods in 2 weekends for work.
Just checking that you realize the sequences I am talking about were
shot in London, not in "Endor," even though it was supposed to be
Endor.
> You can believe whatever you want.
I could, but you will appreciate my work more if I know the truth.
I posted before about THE LAST STARFIGHTER, which I only very recently
learned was made on a CRAY XMP.
It is ironic that everyone agrees THE LAST STARFIGHTER used CRAY
hardware and software, however you are saying ILM and Lucasfilm both
never owned a CRAY.
If I am wrong, then I am wrong, but for what it is worth, I have been
hearing about "the ILM use of CRAY supercomputers" since about 1990.
This means I have been hearing about Star Wars CRAY for at least 10
years more than THE LAST STARFIGHTER rumour.
If there really was no CRAY use, does that mean Episode 4 and Episode
5 were done strictly with analog blue-screen effects, matte painting,
models, and miniatures?
Eugene Miya
>> >basically close-up shots of miniature dolls on bikes.
>> >Puppeteers
>> Yeah, I plan to visit the redwoods in 2 weekends for work.
In article <1186733709.1...@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
x01001x <xem...@softhome.net> wrote:
>Just checking that you realize the sequences I am talking about were
>shot in London, not in "Endor," even though it was supposed to be
>Endor.
Are you familiar with the term "compositing?"
Do you also know what a crosspost is? And its semantics?
>> You can believe whatever you want.
>
>I could, but you will appreciate my work more if I know the truth.
>I posted before about THE LAST STARFIGHTER, which I only very recently
>learned was made on a CRAY XMP.
I^3.
>It is ironic that everyone agrees THE LAST STARFIGHTER used CRAY
>hardware and software, however you are saying ILM and Lucasfilm both
>never owned a CRAY.
Do you understand the relationship of the "firms?"
>If I am wrong, then I am wrong, but for what it is worth, I have been
>hearing about "the ILM use of CRAY supercomputers" since about 1990.
OK: I was using YMPs in 1990. Go back to those whom you are hearing
and ask them:
what model?
Press for details: memory, language, OS, etc.
>This means I have been hearing about Star Wars CRAY for at least 10
>years more than THE LAST STARFIGHTER rumour.
You have no idea how "cheap" show business is.
>If there really was no CRAY use, does that mean Episode 4 and Episode
>5 were done strictly with analog blue-screen effects, matte painting,
>models, and miniatures?
No. Lucas CD could afford to use cheaper if slower computers for various
work. They did incredible work on registration in the 70s and only
needed minis and micros.
But none of that improves plot.
--
x01001x
> Are you familiar with the term "compositing?"
> Do you also know what a crosspost is? And its semantics?
Not sure about crosspost. Compositing is 35mm frame composites?
For example when animation is added to a frame (like rotoscope)
or matte paintings? When Obi Wan Kenobi is turning off the Death Star
tractor beam,
is that a composite?
> >It is ironic that everyone agrees THE LAST STARFIGHTER used CRAY
> >hardware and software, however you are saying ILM and Lucasfilm both
> >never owned a CRAY.
>
> Do you understand the relationship of the "firms?"
Well, THE LAST STARFIGHTER crew was totally different.
Lucasfilm came first, and is almost a British company, considering how
much work is
done in London compared to anywhere else.
Skywalker Sound,ILM, and THX were corporatized later I believe, to
serve as a business side
to George Lucas's more creative tendencies.
> No. Lucas CD could afford to use cheaper if slower computers for various
> work. They did incredible work on registration in the 70s and only
> needed minis and micros.
More on this please. I am concerned with ANY and ALL use of computers
by Lucasfilm or ILM from 1974-1983.
> But none of that improves plot.
Leave that to me.
Eugene Miya
x01001x <xem...@softhome.net> wrote:
>> "compositing?"
>> crosspost?
>
>Not sure about crosspost.
Sends a post to more than 1 news group. Powerful. Useful && dangerous
in newbie hands.
>Compositing is 35mm frame composites?
>For example when animation is added to a frame (like rotoscope)
>or matte paintings? When Obi Wan Kenobi is turning off the Death Star
>tractor beam,
>is that a composite?
The additions of picture elemnts to compose a complete scene.
Independent of film. Independent of animation. Independent of rotoscoping.
Yes that scene was a composite. Many were.
>> >It is ironic that everyone agrees THE LAST STARFIGHTER used CRAY
>> >hardware and software, however you are saying ILM and Lucasfilm both
>> >never owned a CRAY.
>>
>> Do you understand the relationship of the "firms?"
>
>Well, THE LAST STARFIGHTER crew was totally different.
Yeah, you cut the acronym for that firm.
>Lucasfilm came first, and is almost a British company, considering how
That would amuse friends.
>much work is
>done in London compared to anywhere else.
>Skywalker Sound,ILM, and THX were corporatized later I believe, to
>serve as a business side
>to George Lucas's more creative tendencies.
They are, a few others, are parts of what make Lucasfilm.
>> No. Lucas CD could afford to use cheaper if slower computers for various
>> work. They did incredible work on registration in the 70s and only
>> needed minis and micros.
>
>More on this please. I am concerned with ANY and ALL use of computers
>by Lucasfilm or ILM from 1974-1983.
Corporate family jewels.
What has appeared in what ever press is that which has been released.
Other than that, you have to locate people who used to work there and
who may have had their NDAs lapse. You would do better in the movie and
graphics news groups. Barely. This group has a CPU bias. A Cray CPU bias.
>> But none of that improves plot.
>
>Leave that to me.
Get to it.
--
x01001x
> >More on this please. I am concerned with ANY and ALL use of computers
> >by Lucasfilm or ILM from 1974-1983.
>
> Corporate family jewels.
Yes this is true. Isn't it great God gave us brains to consider the
family jewels by which we have been corporatized?
> What has appeared in what ever press is that which has been released.
Right, I've been through *LOTS* of this. I've even spoken with Dennis
Muren
shortly after he designed the dinosaurs for Jurassic Park.
That's why I *STILL* can't figure out what this is about "ILM has
never owned a Cray."
How about this, if this group has a Cray CPU bias, then I know how I
can solve my problem.
*IF* Lucasfilm would have used *ANY* Cray from 1974-1983, will you
please supply a list of
what CRAYS *COULD HAVE* possibly been used during this time?
I assume the only ones in this set are the CRAY-1, CRAY-2, and the
CRAY X-MP.
Are there any more (or less?)
> Other than that, you have to locate people who used to work there and
> who may have had their NDAs lapse.
> You would do better in the movie and
> graphics news groups.
Well, are you able to suggest ones that deal specifically with
FX from 1974-1983?
I would appreciate some help regarding this lack of information, Mr.
Mia.
Consider the children.
Eugene Miya
x01001x <xem...@softhome.net> wrote:
>*IF* Lucasfilm would have used *ANY* Cray from 1974-1983, will you
>please supply a list of
>what CRAYS *COULD HAVE* possibly been used during this time?
>I assume the only ones in this set are the CRAY-1, CRAY-2, and the
>CRAY X-MP.
>Are there any more (or less?)
1983: The Cray 2 didn't exist yet. 1974 the Cray 1 didn't yet exist.
The Cray 1 used in Andre and Wally Bee was likely used remotely from CA
to Minn. Machines in that era didn't have names.
>> You would do better in the movie and graphics news groups.
>
>Well, are you able to suggest ones that deal specifically with
>FX from 1974-1983?
comp.graphics.misc
rec.arts.movies.*
this will be where you can start trolling.
>I would appreciate some help regarding this lack of information, Mr.
>Mia.
>Consider the children.
What children?
You should be tracking down Lucasfilm CD and pixar people.
--
x01001x
> The Cray 1 used in Andre and Wally Bee was likely used remotely from CA
> to Minn.
Who are Andre and Wally Bee, what is their significance regarding Cray
Supercomputing?
>>Consider the children.
> What children?
THE children.
> You should be tracking down Lucasfilm CD and pixar people.
Well, PIXAR can't help me with anything. PIXAR is exactly what I *AM
NOT* talking about,
so that's useless.
Lucasfilm CD means...what now? Computer Development?
What is the work you were talking about "micros" before.
I thought the only micros available at this time were the Apple and
Altair?
This would have been before Atari micros were even commonly used.
Keith Thompson
>> The Cray 1 used in Andre and Wally Bee was likely used remotely from CA
>> to Minn.
>
> Who are Andre and Wally Bee, what is their significance regarding Cray
> Supercomputing?
Google will help you find the answer to this. (It's actually "Andre
and Wally B.".)
>>>Consider the children.
>> What children?
>
> THE children.
I think you're trying to be funny. Your humor is not coming across at
all well.
[...]
Eugene Miya
>> to Minn.
In article <1187826062.1...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
x01001x <xem...@softhome.net> wrote:
>Who are Andre and Wally Bee, what is their significance regarding Cray
>Supercomputing?
Andre and Wally Bee was the proof of concept computer generated film which
was the first and only Lucasfilm Cray project. It was not the first
movie ever generated on Cray. Nelson Max has that distinction with
Carla's Island (unclassified).
This tells me that you have not done your home work.
>>>Consider the children.
>> What children?
>
>THE children.
Children are used for all kinds of bull shit recommendations.
Kurt Vonnegut would call any politico on that.
>> You should be tracking down Lucasfilm CD and pixar people.
>
>Well, PIXAR can't help me with anything. PIXAR is exactly what I *AM
>NOT* talking about,
>so that's useless.
No, it's not. It's bait which tells me that --------|
|
>Lucasfilm CD means...what now? Computer Development? |
|
Lucasfilm Computer Division <-------|
is unknown to you. And that you don't know the Lucas-Jobs negotiation.
>What is the work you were talking about "micros" before.
I said minis.
>I thought the only micros available at this time were the Apple and
>Altair?
>This would have been before Atari micros were even commonly used.
Lucasfilm Game Division.
--
x01001x
> I think you're trying to be funny. Your humor is not coming across at
> all well.
Don't worry. I don't joke when it comes to CRAY SUPERCOMPUTING.
x01001x
> Andre and Wally Bee was the proof of concept computer generated film which
> was the first and only Lucasfilm Cray project. It was not the first
> movie ever generated on Cray. Nelson Max has that distinction with
> Carla's Island (unclassified).
How did you go from "Lucasfilm has never owned a Cray," to what you
just said?
I've done a LOT of homework, however I wonder if you realize how hard
this info was to come by in the 1980s when I
began to research this subject. In the 1990s, the Star Wars fan base
became *VERY* large.
Good luck trying to learn *ANYTHING* from the Internet Star Wars
fanbase.
Anyway, for what it's worth I'm concerned about CRAY hardware and
software specs.
It just so happens I'm looking for the hardware and software used for
Lucasfilm projects.
>
> This tells me that you have not done your home work.
> Children are used for all kinds of bull shit recommendations.
Yes isn't it great we're discussing Star Wars FX instead of bullshit.
>Lucasfilm Computer Division <-------|
> is unknown to you. And that you don't know the Lucas-Jobs negotiation.
Well, I am trying to be specific to CRAYs here. (Cmon let's stay on
the topic of this newsgroup)
Lucasfilm Computer Division has a lot of projects going on concerning
the Lucasarts Software.
This is also useless. I'm not going to go research the guys that made
"Rebel Assault" to find out about
CRAY hardware and software.
> >What is the work you were talking about "micros" before.
> I said minis.
What is the work you were talking about "minis" before?
Eugene Miya
>> was the first and only Lucasfilm Cray project. It was not the first
>> movie ever generated on Cray. Nelson Max has that distinction with
>> Carla's Island (unclassified).
In article <1188171248.6...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
x01001x <xem...@softhome.net> wrote:
>How did you go from "Lucasfilm has never owned a Cray," to what you
>just said?
Because you are assuming that Lucasfilm bought one.
It rented time.
Lucasfilm has never owned a Cray.
>I've done a LOT of homework, however I wonder if you realize how hard
>this info was to come by in the 1980s when I
>began to research this subject. In the 1990s, the Star Wars fan base
>became *VERY* large.
>Good luck trying to learn *ANYTHING* from the Internet Star Wars
>fanbase.
That's because fans don't know anything.
I suspect that fan base was large in 1977.
>Anyway, for what it's worth I'm concerned about CRAY hardware and
>software specs.
>It just so happens I'm looking for the hardware and software used for
>Lucasfilm projects.
Well that's all ancient history. Some of it can be found in SIGGRAPH
proceedings and there wasn't a lot of Cray hardware anywhere back then.
Even at Cray.
>> This tells me that you have not done your home work.
>> Children are used for all kinds of bull shit recommendations.
>
>Yes isn't it great we're discussing Star Wars FX instead of bullshit.
Naw, this is bull shit.
>>Lucasfilm Computer Division <-------|
>> is unknown to you. And that you don't know the Lucas-Jobs negotiation.
>
>Well, I am trying to be specific to CRAYs here. (Cmon let's stay on
>the topic of this newsgroup)
>Lucasfilm Computer Division has a lot of projects going on concerning
>the Lucasarts Software.
>This is also useless. I'm not going to go research the guys that made
>"Rebel Assault" to find out about
>CRAY hardware and software.
You are inquiring about a subset of information which is essentially
non-existent.
>> >What is the work you were talking about "micros" before.
>> I said minis.
>What is the work you were talking about "minis" before?
Film registration. Has nothing to do with Crays.
And everything to do with making the film successful.
Learn to inquire in the right groups.
--
gannett
Sorry to flap in late to the party but a good src for reading all
about Lusasfilm it's growth and development, including some technology
history can be found in :
droidMaker
george lucas and the digital revolution
by michaelRUBIN
Pub 2006
(CAPS as per book title page )
Blog at http://droidmaker.blogspot.com/
I read this one and enjoyed it despite the book having a bit too much
real estate information ( office locations ) and wandering off into
film handling production technology for a while.
The index has three references to Cray Research on pp 272-273 &
370-371 & 409
pp 272-273
Has picture of Gary Demos and John Whitney and an XMP at Digital
Productions. Text discusses DP's relationship with Lucasfilm and how
that the Cray time was too expensive and a bit overkill. Lucasfilm was
using VAXs at the time.
pp 370-371
Words about how a short demo film called Andre and Wally B used 4+2
XMP CPUs to render a film to be shown later shown at Siggraph 1984.
The rendered frames were photographed one by one as they were produced
on a VDU.
Also mentioned the problem that much of the Lucasfilm codes were in C
and the Cray only had a C->Fortran converter rather than a proper
compiler.
pp 409
Talks about costs of Cray v Pixar hardware rendering engine.
>From the book we learn that there was some cross over between
Lucasfilm and Cray's but not much. Most of the Cray computers used in
film making is found in the history of Digital Productions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Productions
BTW One of the appendices of the book is a staff roster from Lucasfilm
Computer Division 1997-1986.
Gannett
.. snip
> >Anyway, for what it's worth I'm concerned about CRAY hardware and
> >software specs.
> >It just so happens I'm looking for the hardware and software used for
> >Lucasfilm projects.
>
> Well that's all ancient history. Some of it can be found in SIGGRAPH
> proceedings and there wasn't a lot of Cray hardware anywhere back then.
> Even at Cray.
.. snip
> >Well, I am trying to be specific to CRAYs here. (Cmon let's stay on
> >the topic of this newsgroup)
> >Lucasfilm Computer Division has a lot of projects going on concerning
> >the Lucasarts Software.
> >This is also useless. I'm not going to go research the guys that made
> >"Rebel Assault" to find out about
> >CRAY hardware and software.
.. snip
Eugene Miya
Fred, I'm go to integrate that into the c.s.s./c.p. FAQ for the 12th.
I might restructure the FAQ to have all the Cray related stuff on one
day and cross post c.u.c. to it (may be some work).
--