Why first paragraph no indent in latex ?
Wong Sai-kee
convince guys to switch from Wintel zone (MS based) to tex. I frequently
face this question. It seems odds to them, why the first paragraph
is not indent while others indent ?
I think its not convention invented by latex, instead it should be
something inherited from typography community. Then I check some books,
some use the latex style, some indent all paragraphs, some do not indent
all paragraphs. It seems my guess is wrong.
So, what is the advantage or philosophy behind for this latex style ?
Or its just matter of style ? Then, is there any one command to switch
among latex/all-indent/all-no-indent ?
SK
Sebastian Perez-Duarte
Use the package indentfirst to put all indents.
Set \parindent to 0 to have no indentation (and then use some positive
\parskip to have a readable document).
Cheers,
Sebastian
Thomas Lotze
>
> So, what is the advantage or philosophy behind for this latex style ?
I think it's this: The indentation makes clear
that a new paragraph begins. First paragraphs
don't have to be distinguished from anything
that comes before, as there comes nothing before.
> Or its just matter of style ?
I think it's a matter of the inability of certain
word processors to treat some paragraphs
differently from others. And after many people
used those WPs for years, this flaw became
the "normal" behaviour in many people's eyes.
> Then, is there any one command to switch
> among latex/all-indent/all-no-indent ?
You can switch off indentation of one paragraph
by \noindent , and you can suppress all
indentation by \setlength{\parindent}{0pt} .
Cheers, Thomas
--
Thomas Lotze - thomas.lotze@gmx.<CUT-IT>.net
http://www.thomas-lotze.de http://www.bannertausch-b150.de
http://thestories.cjb.net
Augusto Jun Devegili
paragraph. :-)
"Wong Sai-kee" <skw...@sun80.acae.cuhk.edu.hk> wrote in message
news:953kko$pph$2...@eng-ser1.erg.cuhk.edu.hk...
Philip Lijnzaad
> It seems odds to them, why the first paragraph is not indent while others
> indent ?
I'm not a typography expert, but the reason for not indenting the first
paragraph seems straightforward to me: indenting paragraphs is to make the
beginning of the paragraph stand-out, which is unnecessary for first
paragraphs of sections (On a first paragraph, it would just leave a useles gap,
that looks even bigger due to the white space between a heading an and the
text).
Philip
--
Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware the humanitarians (anon.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philip Lijnzaad, lijn...@ebi.ac.uk \ European Bioinformatics Institute,rm A2-08
+44 (0)1223 49 4639 / Wellcome Trust Genome Campus, Hinxton
+44 (0)1223 49 4468 (fax) \ Cambridgeshire CB10 1SD, GREAT BRITAIN
PGP fingerprint: E1 03 BF 80 94 61 B6 FC 50 3D 1F 64 40 75 FB 53
Thierry Bouche
> Wong Sai-kee wrote:
> >
> > So, what is the advantage or philosophy behind for this latex style ?
>
> I think it's this: The indentation makes clear
> that a new paragraph begins. First paragraphs
> don't have to be distinguished from anything
> that comes before, as there comes nothing before.
american reasonning, french people tend to think that,as any paragraph
(alinea) will be indented, non-indenting one is ower-tagging it...
> > Or its just matter of style ?
It's mostly a matter of style.
Martin Schroeder
>I think its not convention invented by latex, instead it should be
>something inherited from typography community. Then I check some books,
>some use the latex style, some indent all paragraphs, some do not indent
>all paragraphs. It seems my guess is wrong.
Check some books on typography.
<quote source=Bringhurst page=39>
The function of the paragraph indent is to mark a pause, setting the
paragraph apart from what precedes it. If the paragraph is preceded
by a title or subhead, the indent is superfluous and can therefore be
omitted [..].
</quote>
>So, what is the advantage or philosophy behind for this latex style ?
>Or its just matter of style ? Then, is there any one command to switch
>among latex/all-indent/all-no-indent ?
\usepackage{indentfirst}
indents all paragraphs.
\setlength{\parindent}{0pt}
indents no paragraphs.
Both are no-nos for good typography.
Best regards
Martin
dlue...@my-deja.com
Thomas Lotze <p...@tpi.uni-jena.de> wrote:
> Wong Sai-kee wrote:
>
> > Then, is there any one command to switch
> > among latex/all-indent/all-no-indent ?
>
> You can switch off indentation of one paragraph
> by \noindent , and you can suppress all
> indentation by \setlength{\parindent}{0pt} .
>
You can also indent the first paragraph of a section by using
\hspace{\parindent}Call me Ishmael. % No space after the \hspace!
or
\indent\indent Call me Ishmael.
Two \indent's are needed because LaTeX automatically removes one.
These are, of course, reasonable only for an article with few sections
or for portability (in case someone doesn't have the package
indentfirst).
--
Dan Luecking
University of Arkansas
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Boris Veytsman
>
> \usepackage{indentfirst}
>
> indents all paragraphs.
>
> \setlength{\parindent}{0pt}
>
> indents no paragraphs.
>
> Both are no-nos for good typography.
For good Western typography, you mean. In Russian typography it is
customary to indent first paragraphs.
By the way, it is strange that babel does not indent first paragraphs
when the option [russian] is chosen.
--
Good luck
pstanl...@my-deja.com
mar...@oneiros.de wrote:
> In <953kko$pph$2...@eng-ser1.erg.cuhk.edu.hk> Wong
Sai-kee <skw...@sun80.acae.cuhk.edu.hk> writes:
> >I think its not convention invented by latex,
instead it should be
> >something inherited from typography community.
Then I check some books,
> >some use the latex style, some indent all
paragraphs, some do not indent
> >all paragraphs. It seems my guess is wrong.
>
> Check some books on typography.
>
> <quote source=Bringhurst page=39>
> The function of the paragraph indent is to mark
a pause, setting the
> paragraph apart from what precedes it. If the
paragraph is preceded
> by a title or subhead, the indent is superfluous
and can therefore be
> omitted [..].
> </quote>
Or Morison, First Principles of Typography (1936,
and several subsequent editions and translations):
"On no account should the opening of a chapter be
indented, since indentation should mark (and
always mark) the subsequent sections, i.e.
paragraphs."
> >So, what is the advantage or philosophy behind
for this latex style ?
> >Or its just matter of style ? Then, is there
any one command to switch
> >among latex/all-indent/all-no-indent ?
>
> \usepackage{indentfirst}
>
> indents all paragraphs.
>
> \setlength{\parindent}{0pt}
>
> indents no paragraphs.
>
> Both are no-nos for good typography.
That may be too dogmatic (and it's not actually
what Bringhurst says). As has already been pointed
out, French typography differs in this point as it
differs in many points from other traditions, yet
no-one can doubt that France has a distinguished
typographic tradition. I'm not really sure that
Morison's comments make much sense. After all,
one could turn the question round: is the first
paragraph not just as much a paragraph as any
subsequent one? and is anyone actually *confused*
by having the first paragraph indented. I doubt
it. As with so many typographic rules, one tends
to like what one is used to.
Some quite distinguished typographers have changed
their views on questions like this: Jan Tschichold
abandoned indentation completely during his early
asymmetric phase (as illogical), and subsequently
became a fervent supporter of it. Other elements
of "good" classic typography (such as the use of
old-style figures in text work: not, of course, in
scientific and technical documents, or the use of
an ordinary word space rather than extra space
after full points) have better rational and
aesthetic justification---but are more regularly
ignored, even by TeX users.
--
Paul Stanley
Robin Fairbairns
>m...@dream.kn-bremen.de (Martin Schroeder) writes:
>> \usepackage{indentfirst}
>>
>> indents all paragraphs.
>>
>> \setlength{\parindent}{0pt}
>>
>> indents no paragraphs.
>>
>> Both are no-nos for good typography.
>
>For good Western typography, you mean. In Russian typography it is
>customary to indent first paragraphs.
it's all too easy to make that sort of mistake ;-)
>By the way, it is strange that babel does not indent first paragraphs
>when the option [russian] is chosen.
according to a paper given by olga lapko at tug2000, that's in the
pipeline.
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge
Thierry Bouche
> As has already been pointed
> out, French typography differs in this point as it
> differs in many points from other traditions,
Well, not that much, as long as you're talking of _traditions_... I'm
reading a book by Chaundy et al from Oxford press (1957) on a monotype
machine, this book was obviously quite influencial on tex's math style
(it's set with <non>computer modern...): it shows what people would
call french typography (thin spaces before double puctuation, every
par is indented, even at the beginning of sections) although some
peculiarities, as emphasing with small caps within italic, are not
related to any tradition I know of...
> one could turn the question round: is the first
> paragraph not just as much a paragraph as any
> subsequent one? and is anyone actually *confused*
> by having the first paragraph indented.
that's what I said, I have a puzzling example in an AMS book: a
section begins with an enumerate, it yields something like:
(1) Xxxx xxx xx
xxx xx xxx
(2) XXXxxx xx
xxxxxx
(3) Xxx
which is hardly acceptable to my eye...
--
Thierry Bouche
Rowland McDonnell
> pstanl...@my-deja.com writes:
>
> > As has already been pointed
> > out, French typography differs in this point as it
> > differs in many points from other traditions,
>
> Well, not that much, as long as you're talking of _traditions_... I'm
> reading a book by Chaundy et al from Oxford press (1957) on a monotype
> machine, this book was obviously quite influencial on tex's math style
> (it's set with <non>computer modern...): it shows what people would
> call french typography (thin spaces before double puctuation,
If you mean thin spaces before colons and semi-colons (are there any
more?) - well, that's common in English printing of around that age.
I've got a 1966 Heinemann/Davies (London based publisher, printed in
Wiltshire - that was back in the days when people actually made things
in the UK) copy of Cecil Lewis's `Sagittatius rising' which displays
that characteristic.
(1966 predates me, just about)
That book has chapters, each divided into informal sections separated by
what you'd get from LaTeX if you said this:
\begin{center}
*
\end{center}
and the following paragraph is indented. The start of each chapter is
partly heralded by a non-indented drop cap (the rest of the initial word
being in small caps). Numerals are old-style, and the table of contents
is rendered in letterspaced small caps.
[snip]
> that's what I said, I have a puzzling example in an AMS book: a
> section begins with an enumerate, it yields something like:
>
> (1) Xxxx xxx xx
> xxx xx xxx
> (2) XXXxxx xx
> xxxxxx
> (3) Xxx
>
> which is hardly acceptable to my eye...
Yuck. Smells like a species of bug to me.
Rowland.
--
Remove the animal for email address: rowland....@dog.physics.org
PGP pub key A680B89D Sorry - the spam got to me
http://www.mag-uk.org
UK biker? Join MAG and help keep bureaucracy at bay
Thierry Bouche
> If you mean thin spaces before colons and semi-colons (are there any
> more?) - well, that's common in English printing of around that age.
Yes, I just wanted to point out that what people call « english »
typography is rather recent, and not that english...
> > (1) Xxxx xxx xx
> > xxx xx xxx
> > (2) XXXxxx xx
> > xxxxxx
> > (3) Xxx
> >
> > which is hardly acceptable to my eye...
>
> Yuck. Smells like a species of bug to me.
to me too. Unfortunately, it's in the AMS' typographic guide... (Swanson)
--
Thierry Bouche
__
« Ils vivent pour vivre, et nous, hélas ! nous vivons pour savoir. »
Charles Baudelaire, Paris.
Rowland McDonnell
> real-addr...@flur.bltigibbet (Rowland McDonnell) writes:
>
> > If you mean thin spaces before colons and semi-colons (are there any
> > more?) - well, that's common in English printing of around that age.
>
>
> Yes, I just wanted to point out that what people call « english »
> typography is rather recent, and not that english...
Okay - until you said that, it didn't occur to me that anyone would have
thought that anything in England is particularly English. I mean, isn't
*everything* European just a mongrel mix of, well, everything?
Take the languages for example - I often say that Dutch is nothing but a
practical joke formed by stirring German and English together in a pot
and doubling the number of vowels. Of course it's nothing of the sort -
but the connections between Dutch, English, German, (French, Italian,
etc., but not Finnish or Magyar) are obvious even to me.
And once you get on to typography - well... It all derives from German
typography, doesn't it? And, well, oh shut up boy.
> > > (1) Xxxx xxx xx
> > > xxx xx xxx
> > > (2) XXXxxx xx
> > > xxxxxx
> > > (3) Xxx
> > >
> > > which is hardly acceptable to my eye...
> >
> > Yuck. Smells like a species of bug to me.
>
> to me too. Unfortunately, it's in the AMS' typographic guide... (Swanson)
Oh dear. (btw, to be pedantically correct, that should have been `...
in the AMS's typographical guide...')
Sven Bovin
>
> Thierry Bouche <Thierry...@ujf-grenoble.fr> wrote:
>
> > real-addr...@flur.bltigibbet (Rowland McDonnell) writes:
[snip]
> > Yes, I just wanted to point out that what people call « english »
> > typography is rather recent, and not that english...
>
> Okay - until you said that, it didn't occur to me that anyone would
> have
> thought that anything in England is particularly English. I mean,
> isn't
> *everything* European just a mongrel mix of, well, everything?
>
> Take the languages for example - I often say that Dutch is nothing
> but a
> practical joke formed by stirring German and English together in a pot
> and doubling the number of vowels. Of course it's nothing of the
> sort -
Hey, I like that one ! (My native language is Dutch and I do
speak English and a little German ...)
> but the connections between Dutch, English, German, (French, Italian,
> etc., but not Finnish or Magyar) are obvious even to me.
And not only to you. BTW: Finnish and Magyar are related to
Turkish and Korean.
> And once you get on to typography - well... It all derives from
> German
> typography, doesn't it? And, well, oh shut up boy.
Actually it derives from scribe traditions going back to
the Middle Ages. Those traditions in turn have their roots
in the Roman Empire that took the art from Greece and Egypt.
[snip]
Sven
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
sven dot bovin at chem dot kuleuven dot ac dot be
-----------------------------------------------------------
Giuseppe Bilotta
> > but the connections between Dutch, English, German, (French, Italian,
> > etc., but not Finnish or Magyar) are obvious even to me.
>
> And not only to you. BTW: Finnish and Magyar are related to
> Turkish and Korean.
And Estonian and Komi.
> > And once you get on to typography - well... It all derives from
> > German
> > typography, doesn't it? And, well, oh shut up boy.
>
> Actually it derives from scribe traditions going back to
> the Middle Ages. Those traditions in turn have their roots
> in the Roman Empire that took the art from Greece and Egypt.
--
Giuseppe Bilotta
Using Microsoft products is like
having sex without condoms---but
much less pleasurable
Giuseppe Bilotta
> > > And once you get on to typography - well... It all derives from
> > > German
> > > typography, doesn't it? And, well, oh shut up boy.
> >
> > Actually it derives from scribe traditions going back to
> > the Middle Ages. Those traditions in turn have their roots
> > in the Roman Empire that took the art from Greece and Egypt.
>
> Babylonian cuneiform (and one of these days, I'll read the epic of
> Gilgamesh, just as soon as I've re-tiled the bathroom and given the cat
> a manicure). I was just referring to the fact that the original
> *typ*ography was German, because Germany is where the first printing
> with moveable type was done. Typography refers to printing, not writing
> - calligraphy is the word in that case.
Yes, but you miss the point that the typography conventions (this should
be written such and so, so much space should go in indentations, different
spacing after full stop or not, spacing before commas etc like in french
typography, ligatures etc) mostly derive from the way the books were written
when they were hand-written. Calligraphy has only to do with the
"good (visual impact of) (hand)writing".