BibTeX and sorting names with `von' prefixes
John W. Eaton
when sorting? Shouldn't they be ignored? If the styles ignored them,
one could always force the von to be considered by entering
NAME = "{von Neumann}, Thomas"
instead of
NAME = "von Neumann, Thomas"
in the database, as the LaTeX Companion suggests. As it is now, there
seems to be no convenient way to avoid sorting on the `von' part of
the name, short of modifying the styles.
I am not asking for advice on how to fix the styles. I know how to do
that. What I want to know is whether other people consider this to be
a bug in the styles, and if so, how can we go about getting it fixed?
If people don't think of this as a bug, can someone please explain
why the current behavior is better than ignoring the `von' part
of names when sorting?
Sorry if this is a FAQ; I searched but came up empty.
Thanks,
jwe
--
In the beginning, Ken Thompson | Octave: http://www.che.wisc.edu/octave
wrote the searching tool grep. | Me: http://www.che.wisc.edu/~jwe
-- A. Hume, SP&E (1988) |
Kumar Vetharaniam
: Why do the standard BibTeX styles consider the `von' part of names
: when sorting? Shouldn't they be ignored? If the styles ignored them,
: one could always force the von to be considered by entering
: NAME = "{von Neumann}, Thomas"
: instead of
: NAME = "von Neumann, Thomas"
: in the database, as the LaTeX Companion suggests. As it is now, there
: seems to be no convenient way to avoid sorting on the `von' part of
: the name, short of modifying the styles.
: I am not asking for advice on how to fix the styles. I know how to do
: that. What I want to know is whether other people consider this to be
: a bug in the styles, and if so, how can we go about getting it fixed?
: If people don't think of this as a bug, can someone please explain
: why the current behavior is better than ignoring the `von' part
: of names when sorting?
Since "von" (even though it's lower case) is the first part of von
Neumann's surname, it seems appropriate to sort on "von" and not
on "Neumann".
Also, a number of people spell "von, "van", "de", etc. upper-cased in
their names, and ignoring the lower case will leave "von Neumann" in a
different part of a listing from "Von Neumann", which doesn't seem
right.
Additonally, the current BibTeX behaviour is standard practice, and in
the absence of a good reason to change, best to stick with convention.
--
Kumar
rabbi...@rabbit.xs4all.nl
Vetharaniam) wrote:
>John W. Eaton (j...@bevo.che.wisc.edu) wrote:
>: Why do the standard BibTeX styles consider the `von' part of names
>: when sorting? Shouldn't they be ignored? If the styles ignored them,
>: one could always force the von to be considered by entering
>
>: NAME = "{von Neumann}, Thomas"
>
>: instead of
>
>: NAME = "von Neumann, Thomas"
>
>: in the database, as the LaTeX Companion suggests. As it is now, there
>: seems to be no convenient way to avoid sorting on the `von' part of
>: the name, short of modifying the styles.
>
>: I am not asking for advice on how to fix the styles. I know how to do
>: that. What I want to know is whether other people consider this to be
>: a bug in the styles, and if so, how can we go about getting it fixed?
>: If people don't think of this as a bug, can someone please explain
>: why the current behavior is better than ignoring the `von' part
>: of names when sorting?
>Since "von" (even though it's lower case) is the first part of von
>Neumann's surname, it seems appropriate to sort on "von" and not
>on "Neumann".
I don't agree. There is a significant difference between "von/van/de"
part of a surname and the identifier part (Neumann). To appreciate
this, one has to look at how this difference is treated in the
originating languages, in this case German and Dutch. There "von
Neumann" will be listed under "N" and "Ludwig van Beethoven" under
"B". Listing them under "V" would make no sense in those languages. It
would be just as silly as listing "Robin of Locksley" under "O".
>Also, a number of people spell "von, "van", "de", etc. upper-cased in
>their names, and ignoring the lower case will leave "von Neumann" in a
>different part of a listing from "Von Neumann", which doesn't seem
>right.
Those who spell their names routinely as "Von" etc. are probably
Americans, or people who have americanised their names. It is not the
correct spelling in either German or Dutch. So, they are probably used
to being listed under "V".
>Additonally, the current BibTeX behaviour is standard practice, and in
>the absence of a good reason to change, best to stick with convention.
Obviously, 'standard practice' is very much orientated on the
American/English situation. That alone should be enough reason to
change it. :-)
Alas, I'm afraid we're stuck with the option of creating better
styles.
Hans Visser
Christoph Nahr
Vetharaniam) wrote:
>Since "von" (even though it's lower case) is the first part of von
>Neumann's surname, it seems appropriate to sort on "von" and not
>on "Neumann".
It isn't. Marks of nobility or descendance never influence the sort
order of a name, at least not in countries that actually had a
nobility historically (i.e. where those names originated).
>Also, a number of people spell "von, "van", "de", etc. upper-cased in
>their names, and ignoring the lower case will leave "von Neumann" in a
>different part of a listing from "Von Neumann", which doesn't seem
>right.
Capitalised marks of nobility such as "Von Neumann" are signs of
Americanisation (or New Zealandisation, or whatever...), i.e. the
names have changed their meaning and "Von" is now regarded as part of
the name proper. This also changes the sort order. "Von Neumann" may
go to "V" but "von Neumann" should always go to "N".
>Additonally, the current BibTeX behaviour is standard practice, and in
>the absence of a good reason to change, best to stick with convention.
I don't know where the current BibTeX behaviour is standard practice
but it can't be anywhere in the civilised world. :-P It sure isn't in
Europe.
--
Chris Nahr (christo...@uumail.xxde, remove xx to reply by e-mail)
Please don't e-mail me if you post! PGP key at wwwkeys.ch.pgp.net
Christoph Nahr
wrote:
>Why do the standard BibTeX styles consider the `von' part of names
>when sorting? Shouldn't they be ignored? If the styles ignored them,
>one could always force the von to be considered by entering
>
> NAME = "{von Neumann}, Thomas"
>
>instead of
>
> NAME = "von Neumann, Thomas"
>
>in the database, as the LaTeX Companion suggests. As it is now, there
>seems to be no convenient way to avoid sorting on the `von' part of
>the name, short of modifying the styles.
You are correct that this strange behaviour is embedded in the BibTeX
styles. I also agree that it's a shortcoming of these styles.
Fortunately, there's an easy way to change this behaviour without
having to write your own styles: download Patrick W. Daly's excellent
Custom-Bib package. The BibTeX styles generated by this package
automatically ignore the "von" part of a name when sorting.
The file name is "custom-bib.tar.gz" and it can be found on your
friendly neighbourhood CTAN server, just go to http://www.ctan.org and
search for keyword "custom-bib".
>I am not asking for advice on how to fix the styles. I know how to do
>that. What I want to know is whether other people consider this to be
>a bug in the styles, and if so, how can we go about getting it fixed?
Oren Patashnik is reading this group. He may or may not include this
change in the next version of BibTeX. In the meantime, I found that
Custom-Bib has everything I need.
Una Smith
alphabetically sorted bibliographies.
christo...@uumail.xxde writes:
> download Patrick W. Daly's excellent
>Custom-Bib package. The BibTeX styles generated by this package
>automatically ignore the "von" part of a name when sorting.
I agree that makebst in the custombib package is the way to go, but this
behavior is not automatic. You need to select this option when you run
makebst to generate your customized bibliography style file.
To be really precise, though, there is yet another level of complication
to consider here. Sorting all instances of "von" names one way or the
other might be wrong, if the persons named do not agree about this issue.
I think the physicist John von Neumann is normally cited as "von Neumann"
in text and I suppose is sorted among the V's. But in my field there is
a famous von Ettingshausen who is usually cited as "Ettingshausen" yet
is listed in bibliographies as "von Ettingshausen", among the E's. The
proper usage of each "von" name should perhaps be set in the bibliography
database, not in the style file. I haven't had a chance to test it, but
the key={} field may do the trick.
--
Una Smith una....@yale.edu
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
Yale University
John W. Eaton
> You are correct that this strange behaviour is embedded in the BibTeX
> styles. I also agree that it's a shortcoming of these styles.
>
> Fortunately, there's an easy way to change this behaviour without
> having to write your own styles: download Patrick W. Daly's excellent
> Custom-Bib package. The BibTeX styles generated by this package
> automatically ignore the "von" part of a name when sorting.
>
> The file name is "custom-bib.tar.gz" and it can be found on your
> friendly neighbourhood CTAN server, just go to http://www.ctan.org and
> search for keyword "custom-bib".
Thanks. I know how to generate new styles. What I really want to
know is how we can get the standard styles fixed.
> Oren Patashnik is reading this group. He may or may not include this
> change in the next version of BibTeX.
Oren, if you are reading, can you please comment?
John W. Eaton
Or even in the U.S., I think. Here the explanation of how bigraphical
names are alphabetized in my copy of Webster's Ninth New Collegiate
Dictionary.
A number of names contain connectives like d', de, di, van, and von.
With some exceptions, chiefly American or British, names are not
alphabetized under these connectives but rather under the principal
element of the surname. If the surname of a person is usually
construed as containing this connective, the entry appears at the
principal element and the connective appears immediately after,
separated by a comma:
Gogh, van ... Vincent
If the full name contains a connective which is not usually construed
as an inseparateble part of the surname, then the connective follows
the personal name.
Beethoven ... Ludwig van
Trying to coerce BibTeX to format names this way in addition to
correctly alphabetizing them could be a bit more difficult, but for
now I'd settle for just having the standard styles fixed to
alphabetize correctly.
If you think that the way BibTeX currently works is correct, then
could you please cite an authoritative text that supports you?
Christoph Nahr
wrote:
>I agree that makebst in the custombib package is the way to go, but this
>behavior is not automatic. You need to select this option when you run
>makebst to generate your customized bibliography style file.
You're right, I guess I meant to say "it's automatic once you select
the appropriate option." ;-) Running makebst is obligatory so it
would be hard to miss the option anyway.
>To be really precise, though, there is yet another level of complication
>to consider here. Sorting all instances of "von" names one way or the
>other might be wrong, if the persons named do not agree about this issue.
>
>I think the physicist John von Neumann is normally cited as "von Neumann"
>in text and I suppose is sorted among the V's.
Where were these papers written? Americans might have silently
"americanised" the name and put it under "V" as a consequence. In von
Neumann's case this is actually justified to some degree since he
emigrated to America. I suppose that von Ettingshausen isn't/wasn't
an American at any time in his/her/its life, but rather German or so?
In that case "E" would be the only correct choice.
John W. Eaton
> The proper usage of each "von" name should perhaps be set in the bibliography
> database, not in the style file.
Yes, I think that is reasonable, since it seems that some special
knowledge about these names is required to alphabetize them correctly.
> I haven't had a chance to test it, but the key={} field may do the trick.
No, it appears that the contents of the key field is ignored if there
is an author or editor field in the entry.
Una Smith
j...@bevo.che.wisc.edu (John W. Eaton) writes:
>No, it appears that the contents of the key field is ignored if there
>is an author or editor field in the entry.
Okay, then per The LaTeX Companion, p. 404, how about this:
author={{\SortNoop{Ettingshausen}}C. von Ettingshausen},
or
author={C. von {\SortNoop{Ettingshausen}}Ettingshausen},
...with "von Ettingshausen" otherwise being treated as beginning with
"von".
Dirk Janssen
In article <7f7otj$ia4$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu>,
Una Smith <una....@yale.edu> wrote:
> To be really precise, though, there is yet another level of complication
> to consider here. Sorting all instances of "von" names one way or the
> other might be wrong, if the persons named do not agree about this issue.
>
> I think the physicist John von Neumann is normally cited as "von Neumann"
> in text and I suppose is sorted among the V's. But in my field there is
> a famous von Ettingshausen who is usually cited as "Ettingshausen" yet
> is listed in bibliographies as "von Ettingshausen", among the E's. The
This is certainly the right approach. Lacking some authorative answer to the
question whether to look up someone under the von or under the `real' name,
the author should be free to adhere to standard practice, even if that is
inconsistent.
This can be nicely illustrated by the difference between Dutch and Flemish
sorting orders, although we speak the same language, the Dutch would sort `Van
der Slagmeulens' under `S', while the Belgians would sort in under `V'. Notice
also how the `Van' acquires an uppercase letter when no initials are given
(standard practice in Dutch and Flemish)...
Dirk
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