LaTeX vs PDFTeX
coo...@nospamverizon.net
'aesthetic' reasons (in particular, desire to \usepackage{microtype}
for protrusion and kerning and such), am toying with 'porting' from
LaTeX to PDFTeX. Now, as everyone knows, the primary 'hiccup' in doing
so is handling of figures. For my LaTeX work, 100% of my figures are
.eps (and we're talking hundreds of figures). OK - no big deal - I can
batch convert .eps -> .pdf, and use .df graphics in PDFTeX.
However, while I've read a bunch of posts/websites that talk about
contrast of PDFTeX and LaTeX, virtually all of them seem to focus
exclusively on this graphics issue as a 'pro' (or 'con', depending on
your 'religious persuasion'). In my limited experience to date though
(a day or so of converting a few chapters just to 'see how it feels'),
the graphics issue is trivial, compared to the bigger paradigm shift
(in my way of working) - the fact that PDFTeX doesn't generate an
intermediate dvi file. Normally, I use the LaTeX -> dvi -> PS -> PDF
sequence for final production, but in day-to-day work, I use LaTeX to
dvi, and then, using some features of the yap previewer (which comes
with the MikTeX 2.xx I use for these things), I can bounce back and
forth between the dvi file, and the relevant part of the TeX file (a
fake wysiwyg, of a sort). I do this a lot (as do a lot of folks), and
it seems to me that what you lose if you go the PDFTeX route (PDFTeX
-> PDF) is any ability to do this, since there is no way (that I know
of) to basically 'double-click in the PDF file, and have it jump back
to exactly that part of the underlying TeX file).
One of my more 'hard core' (foaming?) TeX-saavy colleagues says that
my 'problem' stems from the fact that I persist (foolishly, in his
view) of needing to see the typeset dvi file. He claims he writes
everything - text creation, edits, table formatting etc) within his
preferred editor, and only generates the typeset form (be it DVI, or
PDF...) once (maybe twice) at the end. So, he uses PDFTeX for
everything because the inability to jump back and forth from the PDF
file to the generating TeX isn't necessary (for him).
So, before I make a major investment in porting ~1500 pages or so from
LaTeX to PDFTeX, I was wondering if there were things I'm missing here
(perhaps there is a PDF previewer out there that will interact with
WinEDT - or any other TeX-smart editor - in the way I currently emply
with yap and dvi files). My intent is not to start a flame war, but
simply to solicit pointers/comments from the more learned (which is a
much large set space than what I occupy... ;-)
Joseph Wright
Personally (and others seem to have posted the same before) I use
LaTeX for working on stuff while it is changing a lot, and pdfLaTeX
for final production. Using something like epstopdf means I don't
have to worry about the graphics too much (I use pst-pdf too as I need
psfrag replacements). That means I get searching, etc. with LaTeX
but the nice features of pdfLaTeX in the final build (such as
hyperlinks that can line break).
Joseph wright
Franck Pastor
> I've written a couple of books using LaTeX, and for a bunch of
> 'aesthetic' reasons (in particular, desire to \usepackage{microtype}
> for protrusion and kerning and such), am toying with 'porting' from
> LaTeX to PDFTeX. Now, as everyone knows, the primary 'hiccup' in doing
> so is handling of figures. For my LaTeX work, 100% of my figures are
> .eps (and we're talking hundreds of figures). OK - no big deal - I can
> batch convert .eps -> .pdf, and use .df graphics in PDFTeX.
pdfTeX can produce dvi as well as pdf, and is able to use microtype
features for both. Actually, in the current distributions (TeXLive2007
for instance), what is called "LaTeX" is the pdftex engine in dvi-mode,
used with the LaTeX format. So you're still able to use your eps
figures, the usual dvi--ps--pdf route, and the package microtype, with
the pdftex engine.
>
> However, while I've read a bunch of posts/websites that talk about
> contrast of PDFTeX and LaTeX, virtually all of them seem to focus
> exclusively on this graphics issue as a 'pro' (or 'con', depending on
> your 'religious persuasion'). In my limited experience to date though
> (a day or so of converting a few chapters just to 'see how it feels'),
> the graphics issue is trivial, compared to the bigger paradigm shift
> (in my way of working) - the fact that PDFTeX doesn't generate an
> intermediate dvi file. Normally, I use the LaTeX -> dvi -> PS -> PDF
> sequence for final production, but in day-to-day work, I use LaTeX to
> dvi, and then, using some features of the yap previewer (which comes
> with the MikTeX 2.xx I use for these things), I can bounce back and
> forth between the dvi file, and the relevant part of the TeX file (a
> fake wysiwyg, of a sort). I do this a lot (as do a lot of folks), and
> it seems to me that what you lose if you go the PDFTeX route (PDFTeX
> -> PDF) is any ability to do this, since there is no way (that I know
> of) to basically 'double-click in the PDF file, and have it jump back
> to exactly that part of the underlying TeX file).
There is, at least on MacOSX, with front-ends as TeXShop or iTeXMac (a
not so perfect synchronisation source-pdf is available by default, and
you can obtain a much more efficient with the "pdfsync" package. This
package may be able to work in Windows or Linux, but I don't really
know).
coo...@nospamverizon.net
>
>pdfTeX can produce dvi as well as pdf, and is able to use microtype
>features for both. Actually, in the current distributions (TeXLive2007
>for instance), what is called "LaTeX" is the pdftex engine in dvi-mode,
>used with the LaTeX format. So you're still able to use your eps
>figures, the usual dvi--ps--pdf route, and the package microtype, with
>the pdftex engine.
>
Hmmm - interesting. WHen I created a minimal example, what you
describe (above) seems to work just fine. My mistake was in trying it
with my books - which loads several packages to handling bits of
formatting. When I try a LaTeX compile with the books, after adding
the microtype package, I get all sorts of error messages like:
makefm: The ec-lmr10+ source file could not be found.
Running hbf2gf...
hbf2gf (CJK ver. 4.7.0)
Couldn't find 'ec-lmr10+.cfg'
maketfm: No creation rule for font ec-lmr10+20.
And on, and on, and on...lots of font issues. (I'd be delighted if
someone could offer some sort of 'hint' as to what the problem seems
to be).
Hmmm....but said issues only show up when I load the microtype
package. And, I get them only if I compile with LaTeX, not with
PDFTeX.
Well, its a step. Thanks!
coo...@nospamverizon.net
>
>Personally (and others seem to have posted the same before) I use
>LaTeX for working on stuff while it is changing a lot, and pdfLaTeX
>for final production. Using something like epstopdf means I don't
>have to worry about the graphics too much (I use pst-pdf too as I need
>psfrag replacements). That means I get searching, etc. with LaTeX
>but the nice features of pdfLaTeX in the final build (such as
>hyperlinks that can line break).
>
>Joseph wright
Sounds like a good strategy - I'm not sure it will work so well with
my docs (which are figure heavy, and turing microtype on/off seems to
wreak real havoc with pagination and such...), but worth a try.
Ta much...
Joseph Wright
Microtype works with pdfTeX as well, I believe. I have it on all of
the time, and nothing seems to change. BTW, I always use the "final"
option:
\usepackage[final]{microtype}
so that I can do draft on the whole document to find overful boxes
without affecting microtype.
Joseph Wright
Luis Rivera
> >pdfTeX can produce dvi as well as pdf, and is able to use microtype
> >features for both. Actually, in the current distributions (TeXLive2007
> >for instance), what is called "LaTeX" is the pdftex engine in dvi-mode,
> >used with the LaTeX format. So you're still able to use your eps
> >figures, the usual dvi--ps--pdf route, and the package microtype, with
> >the pdftex engine.
>
> Hmmm - interesting. WHen I created a minimal example, what you
> describe (above) seems to work just fine. My mistake was in trying it
> with my books - which loads several packages to handling bits of
> formatting. When I try a LaTeX compile with the books, after adding
> the microtype package, I get all sorts of error messages like:
>
> Hmmm....but said issues only show up when I load the microtype
> package. And, I get them only if I compile with LaTeX, not with
> PDFTeX.
>
I think you're mistaking LaTeX for a TeX engine, and PDFTeX for a
macro package: LaTeX is a macro package defining a markup language,
and requires some kind of TeX engine to process the marked up
documents; PDFTeX is a TeX engine (like TeX, eTeX, or the upcoming
LuaTeX), and may process several markup languages (plain, LaTeX or
Texinfo, to mention some). So LaTeX files may be processed by any TeX
engine (perhaps with some fiddling on conditional tests, to control
what to do with a particular engine: see ifpdf.sty). pdfTeX, as
opposed to other engines, has its own way to handle graphics,
including fonts, since the target format is PDF and not DVI. To put it
shortly and badly: pdfTeX works as a shortcut between TeX and PDF,
without going through dvi/ps; but it extends TeX to handle graphics,
hyperlinks, and other pdf specials directly; so it needs to know where
to find the fonts, in a way similar to regular DVI drivers, like dvips
or dvipdfm, and thus requires its own configuration files.
If you want to use pdfTeX as the engine to process your LaTeX files,
as opposed to eTeX (the default for the current version of LaTeX), try
using the command
pdflatex filename
instead of the "normal"
latex filename
If that doesn't work, you may have not configured pdfTeX properly, so
the engine fails to find the fonts, as sometimes dvips or dvipdfm do,
if they're not configured properly. Check your system for the
pdftex.cfg or texmf.cnf files, and check your documentation for
kpathsea (man kpathsea in *nix) to find out how to tell pdfTeX where
to find the files.
Good luck,
Luis.
Ulrike Fischer
>>
>>pdfTeX can produce dvi as well as pdf, and is able to use microtype
>>features for both. Actually, in the current distributions (TeXLive2007
>>for instance), what is called "LaTeX" is the pdftex engine in dvi-mode,
>>used with the LaTeX format. So you're still able to use your eps
>>figures, the usual dvi--ps--pdf route, and the package microtype, with
>>the pdftex engine.f
>>
>
> Hmmm - interesting. WHen I created a minimal example, what you
> describe (above) seems to work just fine. My mistake was in trying it
> with my books - which loads several packages to handling bits of
> formatting. When I try a LaTeX compile with the books, after adding
> the microtype package, I get all sorts of error messages like:
>
> makefm: The ec-lmr10+ source file could not be found.
> Running hbf2gf...
>
> And on, and on, and on...lots of font issues. (I'd be delighted if
> someone could offer some sort of 'hint' as to what the problem seems
> to be).
You have font expansion enabled and LaTeX can't handle it.
E.g. the following document run with LaTeX will give this errors:
\documentclass{scrbook}
\usepackage[utf8x]{inputenc}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage{lipsum,lmodern}
\usepackage[expansion]{microtype}
\begin{document}
\lipsum[1]
\lipsum[1]
\end{document}
Normaly you should use simply \usepackage{microtype} and microtype will
enable/disable font expansion depending on the output mode.
microtype.sty 2007/12/23 v2.3 Micro-typography with pdfTeX (RS)
microtype.cfg 2007/12/23 v2.3 microtype main configuration file (RS)
--
Ulrike Fischer
coo...@nospamverizon.net
>
>Hmmm - interesting. WHen I created a minimal example, what you
>describe (above) seems to work just fine. My mistake was in trying it
>with my books - which loads several packages to handling bits of
>formatting. When I try a LaTeX compile with the books, after adding
>the microtype package, I get all sorts of error messages like:
>
>makefm: The ec-lmr10+ source file could not be found.
>Running hbf2gf...
>
>hbf2gf (CJK ver. 4.7.0)
>
>Couldn't find 'ec-lmr10+.cfg'
>maketfm: No creation rule for font ec-lmr10+20.
>
>And on, and on, and on...lots of font issues. (I'd be delighted if
>someone could offer some sort of 'hint' as to what the problem seems
>to be).
So I persured this further, with the following minimal example:
\documentclass[10pt,letterpaper]{article}
\usepackage{microtype}
\begin{document}
Facilisi augue ad diam vel suscipit minim ex nisl odio dolor ut eros,
eum, dolor iusto, illum ex nostrud tincidunt, in luptatum exerci.
Feugait augue in in minim iusto sit vulputate, blandit feugiat duis,
qui illum adipiscing duis qui ipsum feugait esse molestie, et nostrud
elit consequat zzril erat. Qui luptatum feugiat nonummy nulla, zzril
vel consequat illum tincidunt qui ullamcorper, in lobortis. Praesent,
wisi, ad nisl vero esse facilisis dolore in eum dolore dolore
ullamcorper ut molestie ex, feugiat et quis, ex autem illum et. Eros
velit in erat feugiat, nisl augue, dolore duis at odio ullamcorper
duis dolor, nulla ad at tation quis at at ea feugait.
\end{document}
The key to success/failure in getting this to compile with LaTeX (thus
generating the DVI file) is in how the \usepackage{microtype}
statement is 'parameterized'.
If I use
\usepackage{microtype}
no problems.
If, however, I use
\usepackage[protrusion=true,expansion]{microtype}
big problems (of the sort I described).
What puzzles me is that according the microtype docs,
\usepackage[protrusion=true,expansion]{microtype}
\usepackage[activate={true,nocompatibility}]{microtype}
\usepackage{microtype}
should all be equivalent. And yet, I can only get the test doc to
compile with LaTeX when using \usepackage{microtype}.
Hmmm - I guess I'll need to spend some quality time with the microtype
docs, and the MikTeX folks, to figure out what gives. Probably
obvious, but not to me at present.
Moreoever, if I use
\usepackage{microtype}
and compile with PDFTex, I get quite a different output file (in terms
of formatting), than if I do the same thing, but compile with LaTeX.
If you take the minimal example (above) and compile with LaTeX or
PDFTeX, the output (final PDF form) is very different between the two.
Simple reason - the LaTex compilation with the microtype package
included completely ignores it - the PDF ouytput fro a LaTeX
compilation of the minimal example with the microtype package included
is identical to the output from PDFTeX if the microtype pacakge is
*not* included.
Franck Pastor
> If you want to use pdfTeX as the engine to process your LaTeX files,
> as opposed to eTeX (the default for the current version of LaTeX)...
For teTeX 3.0 e.g., it was so, I think, but not anymore. As far as I
know, pdfTeX is now the default engine (in dvi or pdf mode) for any
kind of processing which makes use of the LaTeX format.
And pdfTeX and e-TeX seem to have been merged: cf.
http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?label=whatpdftex
Alan Ristow
> The key to success/failure in getting this to compile with LaTeX (thus
> generating the DVI file) is in how the \usepackage{microtype}
> statement is 'parameterized'.
>
> If I use
>
> \usepackage{microtype}
>
> no problems.
>
> If, however, I use
>
> \usepackage[protrusion=true,expansion]{microtype}
>
> big problems (of the sort I described).
As Ulrike pointed out, LaTeX (as opposed to pdfTeX) cannot handle font
expansion.
> What puzzles me is that according the microtype docs,
>
> \usepackage[protrusion=true,expansion]{microtype}
> \usepackage[activate={true,nocompatibility}]{microtype}
> \usepackage{microtype}
>
> should all be equivalent.
They are when you're using pdfTeX, but microtype implicitly turns off
font expansion if you're using LaTeX. If you explicitly turn it on, you
get the errors that you saw. As I recall, this is explained somewhere in
the docs, but you might have to dig for it (been awhile since I looked
myself).
> Moreoever, if I use
>
> \usepackage{microtype}
>
> and compile with PDFTex, I get quite a different output file (in terms
> of formatting), than if I do the same thing, but compile with LaTeX.
Font expansion can make a big difference in how characters fit on a
line, and this propagates throughout your entire document. One of the
pages in the microtype docs has an example (which, as I recall, you can
only view with one of Adobe's pdf viewers) where you can click buttons
to turn expansion and protrusion on and off to see the effect they have
on paragraph formatting.
Alan
Luis Rivera
wrote:
I see: so I may be slightly outdated (I still use MikTeX 2.4 and teTeX
on cygwin!), so the exes may be as you say; the point however is that
if the OP is using the wrong "mode" (dviTeX as opposed to pdfTeX) or
format (plain as opposed to LaTeX), his source code is likely to choke
the engine. Apparently, though, eir problem is related to the way the
engine deals with the microtype package.
Thanks for the info, anyway,
Luis.
Boris Veytsman
c> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:58:52 -0500
c> On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:20:53 -0500, coo...@NOSPAMverizon.net wrote:
c> If I use
c> \usepackage{microtype}
c> no problems.
c> If, however, I use
c> \usepackage[protrusion=true,expansion]{microtype}
c> big problems (of the sort I described).
Try this
\usepackage{ifpdf}
\ifpdf\usepackage[protrusion=true,expansion]{microtype}%
\else\usepackage{microtype}\fi
--
Good luck
-Boris
Alan Ristow
That should be unnecessary -- if you just say \usepackage{microtype},
without any package options, it should automatically do the equivalent
of what you're proposing (which still enables protrusion in DVI output).
Alan
Markus Heller
Nope, it doesn't. Unfortunately.
Markus
> Alan
Ed Kual
case? I have seen posts about using microtype and hyperlink breaks across
lines. If these are the only benefits of using pdflatex, I would prefer
the forward-backward search provided by dvi (through winedt+Miktex). You
can also program winedt so that teh latex+dvips+ps2pdf can be done by a
single click. I have thought about this transition myself but found no
good reason to give up the ease of forward-backward search.
Ed
coo...@NOSPAMverizon.net wrote in
news:bmnpo35g4ql6j410p...@4ax.com:
Patrick TJ McPhee
<coo...@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote:
% (perhaps there is a PDF previewer out there that will interact with
% WinEDT - or any other TeX-smart editor - in the way I currently emply
% with yap and dvi files). My intent is not to start a flame war, but
Perhaps not the same way, but I believe gsview will reload the current
file if it detects a change, which might give you what you need.
--
Patrick TJ McPhee
North York Canada
pt...@interlog.com
Herbert Schulz
Markus Heller <hell...@spamfree.gmail.com> wrote:
Howdy,
Are there any pdf viewers and editors under Windows that work with the
pdfsync package? That package should help with synchronization. You
still need to make final runs without it since there tends to be some
re-formatting when it's in use. But for getting to content it seems to
work quite well.
Good Luck,
Herb Schulz
Michele Dondi
<he...@wideopenwest.com> wrote:
>Howdy,
>
>Are there any pdf viewers and editors under Windows that work with the
>pdfsync package? That package should help with synchronization. You
>still need to make final runs without it since there tends to be some
>re-formatting when it's in use. But for getting to content it seems to
>work quite well.
Howdy,
how 'bout starting a new thread with a new Subject?
Michele
--
>It's because the universe was programmed in C++.
No, no, it was programmed in Forth. See Genesis 1:12:
"And the earth brought Forth ..."
- Robert Israel in sci.math, thread "Why numbers?"
Patrick Heinze
> I can bounce back and forth between the dvi file, and the relevant
> part of the TeX file (a fake wysiwyg, of a sort). I do this a lot (as
> do a lot of folks), and it seems to me that what you lose if you go
> the PDFTeX route (PDFTeX -> PDF) is any ability to do this, since
> there is no way (that I know of) to basically 'double-click in the
> PDF file, and have it jump back to exactly that part of the
> underlying TeX file).
The vpe-package provides exactly this.
http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/vpe/
hth
Patrick
Alan Ristow
It does for me. The following example produces protrusion in DVI mode
and protrusion and expansion in PDF mode. I don't use ifpdf or change
any microtype package options, just run it as-is with either the "latex"
or "pdflatex" command under MiKTeX 2.6.
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{microtype}
\usepackage{lipsum}
\begin{document}
\lipsum[1-5]
\end{document}
Alan
Markus Heller
I know I know. I misread and thought you were talking about
``expansion'' with LaTeX, and on top of that, I thought of XeTeX, which
can't handle microtype (I played with that recently). That's why I
canceled my posting, but you were too quick ;)
Cheers
Markus
Robin Fairbairns
>[...] That's why I
cancelling used to work, when i was first using news in the 80s.
typically news was updated every hour, and a typical cancel affected
an article that hadn't yet made it from your own server.
nowadays, sfaict, news transactions between signicant servers are
pretty well instantaneous, so the message has already gone a long way
by the time you try to cancel. but of course, there's the article
cancel protocol element, isn't there? well yes, except that you need
to establish a trust path ahead of time to ensure that a remote server
will honour it: aiui, the only remote cancels that get accepted are
those which come from the spam-deletion robots.
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge
Will Robertson
>
> nowadays, sfaict, news transactions between signicant servers are
> pretty well instantaneous, so the message has already gone a long way
> by the time you try to cancel.
The Google Groups interface is misleading in this respect -- it
appears as if your message is deleted and other Groups users won't be
able to see it, but oldtimers who use dedicated newsreaders still
seemingly receive the post. At least, that's the experience I've had
in the past when typing something embarrassing :)
W
RS
> Are there any pdf viewers and editors under Windows that work with the
> pdfsync package?
WinEdt supports it.
Regards,
--
Robert