Roman page numbering: upper case or lower case?
Zio Fester
shouldn't they be capitalized? I mean, I have never seen roman numbers
in lower case, apart from LaTeX books.
I gave a look at the books I have at home, and noticed that all non-
science books have roman page numbers in upper case. Most science books
do not, but since they're almost all written in LaTeX, I wonder whethere
that's a deliberate choice or whether the editors just didn't bother
changing the default setting.
What's your opinion? Can anyone check on, say, the Chicago Manual of
Style?
PS By the way, to capitalize roman numbers, I use the following line of
code (I use the fancyheader and the textcase packages):
\fancyfoot[CE,CO]{\textbf{\MakeTextUppercase{\thepage}}}
David Carlisle
> By default, roman page numbers in LaTeX appear in lower case.
no, by default page numbers appear in arabic numerals.
To get Roman, their are two different numbering styles Roman and roman.
It sounds like you have used roman when you wanted Roman.
> shouldn't they be capitalized? I mean, I have never seen roman numbers
> in lower case, apart from LaTeX books.
I'd have thought lower case was much more common, but both are available
in LaTeX.
> I gave a look at the books I have at home, and noticed that all non-
> science books have roman page numbers in upper case. Most science books
> do not, but since they're almost all written in LaTeX, I wonder whethere
> that's a deliberate choice or whether the editors just didn't bother
> changing the default setting.
first book I could reach without getting up is a (small) copy of the
oxford english dictionary, That uses lowercase roman for front matter, I
doubt that's set in LaTeX (especially as my copy was printed in 1973)
David
Zio Fester
>
> > By default, roman page numbers in LaTeX appear in lower case.
>
> no, by default page numbers appear in arabic numerals.
> To get Roman, their are two different numbering styles Roman and roman.
> It sounds like you have used roman when you wanted Roman.
I see. Thanks!
G. A. Edgar
<ziofe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> By default, roman page numbers in LaTeX appear in lower case. But
> shouldn't they be capitalized? I mean, I have never seen roman numbers
> in lower case, apart from LaTeX books.
Find an *English-language* book published before Latex was invented.
You will likely see lower-case Roman page numbers preceding page 1.
I tried it. Birkhoff & Mac Lane, A SURVEY OF MODERN ALGEBRA,
revised edition, 1953.
Yes... Preface p. v; Table of Contents p. ix.
...again...
Webster's New World Dictionary, 1975.
Forward p. vii; Guide for Use of the Dictionary p. viii;
Abbreviations and Symbols p. xiii.
and so on
The only books I checked with UPPER CASE Roman were:
Larousse's French-English/English-French dictionary.
van der Waerden, ALGEBRA (in German).
Taking the hint, I tried some Bourbaki in French, but there were no
numbered pages before p. 1...
>
> I gave a look at the books I have at home, and noticed that all non-
> science books have roman page numbers in upper case. Most science books
> do not, but since they're almost all written in LaTeX, I wonder whethere
> that's a deliberate choice or whether the editors just didn't bother
> changing the default setting.
Let me guess: The books you have at home are not in English?
>
> What's your opinion? Can anyone check on, say, the Chicago Manual of
> Style?
>
> PS By the way, to capitalize roman numbers, I use the following line of
> code (I use the fancyheader and the textcase packages):
>
> \fancyfoot[CE,CO]{\textbf{\MakeTextUppercase{\thepage}}}
>
--
G. A. Edgar http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~edgar/
Zio Fester
ed...@math.ohio-state.edu.invalid says...
> Find an *English-language* book published before Latex was invented.
> You will likely see lower-case Roman page numbers preceding page 1.
Well, I'm Italian, and noticed that 99% of most non-LaTeX books have
upper-case Roman page numbers, those in my language, I mean.
I asked a friend of mine who's graduating in Latin literature, and he
said that he's simply horrified at the idea of lower-case Roman numbers,
no matter how many publishers may employ them. The point, is,
historically there has never been such a thing as "lower-case Roman
numbers". Roman numbers were, by definition, upper-case. He explained me
that only in medieval times did some lower-case Roman numbers start to
appear, but most scholars don't even consider them "Roman numbers"
because at the time of the Romans those numbers were only upper-case.
Then, of course, it's a matter of choice and personal taste...
David Carlisle
Well, I'm Italian, and noticed that 99% of most non-LaTeX books have
upper-case Roman page numbers, those in my language, I mean.
It's clearly a language thing, in English language books (not just latex
ones) lower case roman is by far the most common form for any kind of
preface material if it is numbered in a different sequence to the main
matter. In a rather random sample of half a dozen non-latex books on a
shelf within reach I only found one using uppercase. (Actually I didn't
expect to find any, the one I did find was translated from a German
original, which might explain that)
David
Zio Fester
> It's clearly a language thing,
My guess is that in countries like Italy, and maybe Germany, lower-case
Roman numbers have not become widespread also because Latin is still
taught in many high schools, so a lot of people know that if it's in
upper-case, it cannot be a real Roman number.
David Carlisle
Zio Fester <ziofe...@hotmail.com> writes:
You mean that English adopted some language construct from across the
Channel and then mangled it, now surely that couldn't possibly happen
could it:-)
Jellby
>> Find an *English-language* book published before Latex was invented.
>> You will likely see lower-case Roman page numbers preceding page 1.
>
> Well, I'm Italian, and noticed that 99% of most non-LaTeX books have
> upper-case Roman page numbers, those in my language, I mean.
>
> I asked a friend of mine who's graduating in Latin literature, and he
> said that he's simply horrified at the idea of lower-case Roman numbers,
> no matter how many publishers may employ them. The point, is,
> historically there has never been such a thing as "lower-case Roman
> numbers". Roman numbers were, by definition, upper-case. He explained me
> that only in medieval times did some lower-case Roman numbers start to
> appear, but most scholars don't even consider them "Roman numbers"
> because at the time of the Romans those numbers were only upper-case.
Well, I'm Spanish and I also find "lower-case roman numbers" an abomination.
As far as I know, they are common in English books, but unknown in Spanish
tradition (where smallcaps is the norm), unless by influence of English
material (probably (La)TeX is one of the culprits).
First, roman numerals were originally *not* letters, they were probably just
marks on wood, bone, stone, etc. A stick, a cross, a triangle... those are
very likely the seeds of the numerals. Later, they were just depicted as
the letters they resembled more closely, and some of them were slightly
altered or completely re-invented. But never did Romans use lower-case
numerals, at least because Romans did not have lower-case letters.
Anyway, I'm not too kind of using Roman numerals anywhere, except maybe for
centuries, Bible chapters and the like. I like books numbered from page 1
to page N. First page (even if it's blank) is number 1, no discontinuities
for me.
PS. I might consider using, for example, Tamil numerals for my next "front
matter" ;-)
--
Ignacio __ Fernández Galván
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Robin Fairbairns
>Zio Fester <ziofe...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> dav...@nag.co.uk says...
>> > It's clearly a language thing,
>>
>> My guess is that in countries like Italy, and maybe Germany, lower-case
>> Roman numbers have not become widespread also because Latin is still
>> taught in many high schools, so a lot of people know that if it's in
>> upper-case, it cannot be a real Roman number.
this is the argument that gets us to ban zips on the ground that they
don't appear in the bible.
at the time i was still studying latin, it was my best subject (on a
par with maths). despite the knowledge that in classical times they
didn't have anything but capitals, i actually used to prefer writing
in lower case (and as you see, i still do).
i really can't see why the fact that people more than 1600 years ago
did it "thus" should mean that we should not mimic their behaviour to
the last jot and tittle.
>You mean that English adopted some language construct from across the
>Channel and then mangled it, now surely that couldn't possibly happen
>could it:-)
i don't look at it as a language construct, more a design construct.
and is it not the case that large proportions of our language
borrowing has been from conquerors ... and i'm a great one for
thumbing the nose at colonialists... :-)
--
Robin (http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq) Fairbairns, Cambridge
Zio Fester
> i really can't see why the fact that people more than 1600 years ago
> did it "thus" should mean that we should not mimic their behaviour to
> the last jot and tittle.
It's not really that, it's rather a matter of habit, I guess. I have
grown accustomed to always seeing Roman number in upper-case, so it
seems a bit odd to see them in lower-case. But of course there's no
binding law, I didn't mean that.
John Harper
>shouldn't they be capitalized? I mean, I have never seen roman numbers
>in lower case, apart from LaTeX books.
>
>I gave a look at the books I have at home, and noticed that all non-
>science books have roman page numbers in upper case. Most science books
>do not, but since they're almost all written in LaTeX, I wonder whether
>changing the default setting.
It is and always has been a publisher's choice. Some books avoid
roman numbers in the front matter, most of the pre-LaTeX science ones
on my shelves use lower case roman numbers (some in roman type, some in
italic) and a few use upper case roman numbers, e.g. Abramowitz & Stegun
"Handbook of Mathematical Functions" (Dover 1970) and Levich
"Physicochemical Hydrodynamics" (Prentice-Hall 1962). As I'm in my
office not at home there are no non-science books here to check unless
you include Littlewood "A Mathematician's Miscellany" (Methuen 1953):
lower case roman numbers in roman type.
John Harper, School of Mathematics, Statistics and Computer Science,
Victoria University, PO Box 600, Wellington, New Zealand
e-mail john....@vuw.ac.nz phone (+64)(4)463 5341 fax (+64)(4)463 5045
Peter Flynn
> By default, roman page numbers in LaTeX appear in lower case.
There is no default: you have to specify Roman or roman.
> But
> shouldn't they be capitalized? I mean, I have never seen roman numbers
> in lower case, apart from LaTeX books.
You surprise me. I have never seen uppercase roman pagenumbers used
in a book.
> I gave a look at the books I have at home, and noticed that all non-
> science books have roman page numbers in upper case.
Can you post some bibliographic data on them?
///Peter
--
"The cat in the box is both a wave and a particle"
-- Terry Pratchett, introducing quantum physics in _The Authentic Cat_
Zio Fester
says...
> You surprise me. I have never seen uppercase roman pagenumbers used
> in a book.
How many non-English books have you seen?
> > I gave a look at the books I have at home, and noticed that all non-
> > science books have roman page numbers in upper case.
>
> Can you post some bibliographic data on them?
All the books of Giappichelli publisher (Turin). Among them, a lot on
law, and some on maths, such as:
Guerraggio, Salsa: Metodi matematici per l'economia e le scienze sociali
which is meant for graduate courses in maths in economics departments
all maths high school books published by Cedam (Padua), Etas (Milan) and
Ferraro (Naples).
the Italian dictionary "De Mauro", published by Paravia, which is one of
the best dictionaries available
Manuel Carrera Díaz: Grammatica spagnola, published by Laterza, the best
Spanish grammar for Italians
Do I really need to go on? Trust me, at least in Italian, the only books
which have lower-case Roman numbers are those written with the standard
LaTeX book class.
Ron Bean
Śhar...@mcs.vuw.ac.nz (John Harper) writes:
Ś
Ś>It is and always has been a publisher's choice. Some books avoid
Ś>roman numbers in the front matter, most of the pre-LaTeX science ones
Ś>on my shelves use lower case roman numbers (some in roman type, some in
Ś>italic)...
Ś
ŚI seem to recall hearing that roman numerals were used because
Śthe front matter was typeset at a different time (maybe while the
Śmain text was being indexed). If this is true, it hasn't been
Śnecessary for a long time.
Malte Rosenau
> How many non-English books have you seen?
>
>>> I gave a look at the books I have at home, and noticed that
>>> all non- science books have roman page numbers in upper
>>> case.
>>
>> Can you post some bibliographic data on them?
>
> All the books of Giappichelli publisher (Turin). Among them, a
> lot on law, and some on maths, such as: Guerraggio, Salsa:
> Metodi matematici per l'economia e le scienze sociali which is
> meant for graduate courses in maths in economics departments
>
> all maths high school books published by Cedam (Padua), Etas
> (Milan) and Ferraro (Naples).
>
> the Italian dictionary "De Mauro", published by Paravia, which
> is one of the best dictionaries available
>
> Manuel Carrera Díaz: Grammatica spagnola, published by Laterza,
> the best Spanish grammar for Italians
>
> Do I really need to go on? Trust me, at least in Italian, the
> only books which have lower-case Roman numbers are those
> written with the standard LaTeX book class.
Just neoclassicism, I guess. You should have a look at italian
renaissance books, where lowercase roman numbers used for page or
quire numbering.
Kind regards,
Malte
William F. Adams
>I seem to recall hearing that roman numerals were used because
It's necessary if one wants to do a second edition / reprint without
repaginating the entire book if a page is gained or lost in the frontmatter.
I'm not sure if publishers store film as they once did in these latter days of
computer to plate production, but, even so, not having to check all aspects of
the pagination (and most books are done in Quark, so page references are mostly
done by hand) is a big save if the files have to be recreated.
William
--
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Peter Flynn
> In article <31k5cfF...@individual.net>, peter...@m.silmaril.ie
> says...
>
>> You surprise me. I have never seen uppercase roman pagenumbers used
>> in a book.
>
> How many non-English books have you seen?
Rather a lot, but not many Italian ones. That may be the gap.
>> > I gave a look at the books I have at home, and noticed that all non-
>> > science books have roman page numbers in upper case.
>>
>> Can you post some bibliographic data on them?
>
> All the books of Giappichelli publisher (Turin). Among them, a lot on
> law, and some on maths, such as:
> Guerraggio, Salsa: Metodi matematici per l'economia e le scienze sociali
> which is meant for graduate courses in maths in economics departments
>
> all maths high school books published by Cedam (Padua), Etas (Milan) and
> Ferraro (Naples).
>
> the Italian dictionary "De Mauro", published by Paravia, which is one of
> the best dictionaries available
>
> Manuel Carrera D�z: Grammatica spagnola, published by Laterza, the best
> Spanish grammar for Italians
Excellent, many thanks, that's very useful.
> Do I really need to go on? Trust me, at least in Italian, the only books
> which have lower-case Roman numbers are those written with the standard
> LaTeX book class.
In that case, this may be an artifact of Italian typography, and as such
should be reflected in the babel package.