Alphabetic order for van, Mac, Mc, ?
Dr. Micheal Mac an Airchinnigh
In article <4u09s9$5...@muller.loria.fr>, roe...@loria.fr (Denis B. Roegel)
wrote:
>In some bibtex file, I have authors with `van' or `Mac',
>or `Mc', etc. My question is : what is the correct way
>to alphabetize these names ? For instance, should McIntosh
>appear before Maddox, or after (depending whether you
>consider Mc as an abbreviation of not) ?
---> The convention in this part of the world where macs abound :-)
--->is that Mc is an abbreviation for Mac and is taken to *be* Mac for
--->lexicographic purposes. In addition all mac names are listed
--->under the letter M. In my bibtex file my own surname is
--->written {Mac an Airchinnigh} so that it is properly listed.
>Should `van Eyck' appear under `v' or under `E' ?
--->I guess that {van Eyck} comes under V.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Denis
Regards, Micheal
--
**********************************************************
[[chop]] denotes the action of the free monoid
removal endomorphism
+++++
Dr. Micheal Mac an Airchinnigh
Technical Director
K&M Technologies Limited
e-mail: mm...@kmtech.ie
**********************************************************
Jonathan Kew
> In some bibtex file, I have authors with `van' or `Mac',
> or `Mc', etc. My question is : what is the correct way
> to alphabetize these names ? For instance, should McIntosh
> appear before Maddox, or after (depending whether you
> consider Mc as an abbreviation of not) ?
> Should `van Eyck' appear under `v' or under `E' ?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Denis
The conventions vary in different languages/countries, so I'm not sure you
can state a simple, general rule. There are lots of these little words
that come in people's names (van, von, de, de la, ...), and they're not
necessarily all treated the same.
I'd suggest consulting a good manual of style (I'd guess the Chicago
Manual addresses this issue), and/or a trained librarian or similar
expert.
Jonathan
Anselm Lingnau
In article <4u09s9$5...@muller.loria.fr>,
Denis B. Roegel <roe...@loria.fr> wrote:
> In some bibtex file, I have authors with `van' or `Mac',
> or `Mc', etc. My question is : what is the correct way
> to alphabetize these names ? For instance, should McIntosh
> appear before Maddox, or after (depending whether you
> consider Mc as an abbreviation of not) ?
> Should `van Eyck' appear under `v' or under `E' ?
Here's what the _Chicago_Manual_of_Style_ (14th Edition) has to say
on the subject:
`17.106 Names with Particles
[...] Both the spelling and the alphabetization of these names should
follow the personal preference of, or accumulated tradition concerning,
the individual, as best exemplified in _Webster's_New_Biographical_
_Dictionary_. [It goes on to give a lot of contradictory examples.]
17.109 Names with _Mac_, _Mc_ and _M'_
Personal names beginning with _Mac_, _Mc_, or _M'_ are preferably
alphabetized letter-by-letter as they appear. Alternatively, they may
be alphabetized as though the full form, _Mac_, were spelled out. [...]'
I used to think that _Mc_, etc., were always to be alphabetized as
_Mac_, the advantage being that it is not only difficult to remember
whether somebody is spelled Macgillivray rather than McGillivray, but
also that some people of these names aren't particular (or even sure)
about the spelling in the first place (this used to be the case in
former times). The reason for the recommendation here seems to make it
easier on people sorting stuff by computer. Actually, the chapter in the
CMoS that these excerpts are taken from contains no less than 35 rules
on alphabetizing names, covering all sorts of special cases and foreign
languages.
Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau ......................... lin...@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
If your users expect new functionality can always be magically added to old
applications, you need to educate your users. --- Bob Scheifler
J van Hamel
Denis B. Roegel (roe...@loria.fr) wrote:
: In some bibtex file, I have authors with `van' or `Mac',
: or `Mc', etc. My question is : what is the correct way
: to alphabetize these names ? For instance, should McIntosh
: appear before Maddox, or after (depending whether you
: consider Mc as an abbreviation of not) ?
: Should `van Eyck' appear under `v' or under `E' ?
I wish I knew...
In Holland `van Eyck' definitely appears under 'E',
but I remember having read that at least some international library
standard requires that 'van ...' should appear under 'v',
and 'de ..., de la ...' under 'd'.
I hope someone on the net knows whether this is THE standard,
whether most libraries (and scientific publishers) adhere
to another standard, or whether it is basically chaos.
How do you alphabetize 'de' and 'de la'?
: Thanks in advance,
: Denis
Michael Dworetsky
In article <jkew-04089...@nntp.ix.netcom.com> jk...@ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Kew) writes:
>In article <4u09s9$5...@muller.loria.fr>, roe...@loria.fr (Denis B. Roegel)
>
>> In some bibtex file, I have authors with `van' or `Mac',
>> or `Mc', etc. My question is : what is the correct way
>> to alphabetize these names ? For instance, should McIntosh
>> appear before Maddox, or after (depending whether you
>> consider Mc as an abbreviation of not) ?
>> Should `van Eyck' appear under `v' or under `E' ?
>>
>>
>> Denis
>
>The conventions vary in different languages/countries, so I'm not sure you
>can state a simple, general rule. There are lots of these little words
>that come in people's names (van, von, de, de la, ...), and they're not
>necessarily all treated the same.
>
>I'd suggest consulting a good manual of style (I'd guess the Chicago
>Manual addresses this issue), and/or a trained librarian or similar
>expert.
>
>Jonathan
My Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors says that all Mcs are Macs
when alphabetising them. It also alphabetises vans and Vans under V, vons
under v, des and de las under D, etc. This should apply for works in
English; I'm not sure what would apply to works in Flemish, German,
French, etc.
--
Mike Dworetsky, Department of Physics | Haiku: Nine men ogle gnats
& Astronomy, University College London | all lit
Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT UK | till last angel gone.
email: m...@star.ucl.ac.uk | Men in Ukiah.
James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763
In article <4ud3h7$n...@muller.loria.fr> roe...@loria.fr (Denis
B. Roegel) writes:
|> In article <DvtME...@cs.vu.nl>, j...@cs.vu.nl (J van Hamel) writes:
|> |> In Holland `van Eyck' definitely appears under 'E',
|> |> but I remember having read that at least some international library
|> |> standard requires that 'van ...' should appear under 'v',
|> |> and 'de ..., de la ...' under 'd'.
|> |> I hope someone on the net knows whether this is THE standard,
|> |> whether most libraries (and scientific publishers) adhere
|> |> to another standard, or whether it is basically chaos.
|> |>
|> |> How do you alphabetize 'de' and 'de la'?
|> |>
|> I don't know ... I think the name is most often under what follows `de' or
|> `de la'. But I don't know if it a rule. When I look up a name, say Abraham De Moivre,
|> in the dictionnary, I first look under `M'. If I don't find him there,
|> I look under `D'.
If I were looking something up in a French reference, I would expect the
`de' or the 'de la' to be ignored. The problem is, of course, that
every language has its own rules. In a French or English reference
book, for example, I would expect to find 'Llama' before 'Long'. In a
Spanish reference book, however, I think that 'Llama' would follow
'Long'.
Ideally, for names one would like to follow the standard for the persons
country. Practically, this would mean knowing the country in every
case, and knowing the rule for every country. In addition, it could
lead to confusion if, e.g. the French rules said to ignore the `de la',
but the Spanish rules said to consider it; two people with the same name
might come in completely different places. (Before anyone posts a
correction: I don't think that this is the actual case concerning `de
la'. It is only an example of what might occur in languages I don't
know.)
--
James Kanze Tel.: (+33) 88 14 49 00 email: ka...@gabi-soft.fr
GABI Software, Sarl., 8 rue des Francs-Bourgeois, F-67000 Strasbourg, France
Conseils, études et réalisations en logiciel orienté objet --
-- A la recherche d'une activité dans une region francophone
Jan Vanderschoot
On 8 Aug 1996 16:10:15 GMT, roe...@loria.fr (Denis B. Roegel) wrote:
>In article <DvtME...@cs.vu.nl>, j...@cs.vu.nl (J van Hamel) writes:
>
>|> In Holland `van Eyck' definitely appears under 'E',
In Belgium it appears under the `v'. The Belgian habbit is quite
simple: don't shuffle anything around and don't abbreviate. The
sorting rule in the Netherlands is more complicated.
Some weird examples from a (NL)-Dutch telephone guide (sort order
respected):
beek, a. ter
bogaard, m van den
derkinderen, w
eijpe, r.
eik, s. van
eyck, a. van
eijck van heslinga, e. van
eygen, van
eyk, h. van
kinderen, w. der
op de beek, a
ouden, i. den
over de vest, t.
uyt den bogaard, m.
As you can see it does'nt even help if you know what the `substantive'
part of the name is.
>|> but I remember having read that at least some international library
>|> standard requires that 'van ...' should appear under 'v',
>|> and 'de ..., de la ...' under 'd'.
>|> I hope someone on the net knows whether this is THE standard,
>|> whether most libraries (and scientific publishers) adhere
>|> to another standard, or whether it is basically chaos.
I do not know about a standard, but I wouldn't consider such a
standard `basically chaos' (see examples above for some real
chaos).
>|>
>|> How do you alphabetize 'de' and 'de la'?
>|>
>
>I don't know ... I think the name is most often under what follows `de' or
>`de la'. But I don't know if it a rule. When I look up a name, say Abraham De Moivre,
>in the dictionnary, I first look under `M'. If I don't find him there,
If you first look under the `M', then you must know at least some
French, isn't? Do you know enough French, Dutch, German, Italian,
Spanish, Portuguese, etc. to sort an international list of authors?
>I look under `D'.
>
>Denis
On a personal note: I am a Belgian living in the Netherlands for 9
years now, and I have had my share of the Dutch (shuffling)game of the
name. Yet, I am quite lucky: my last name is `protected' from
reshuffling since it doesn't contain any spaces (my father was still
known as `van der schoot'). However, if I verbaly give my name to
someone in the Netherlands (without insisting on the
`one-word-please'), I can expect to end up in that database as: either
`schoot, j. van der', or `schoot, j. vd'. In the latter case I can
look forward to receiving letters as: `j. vd schoot', `j. van de
schoot', `j. van den schoot', and may be `j. van der schoot'.
Of course, there is a price to pay when I insist on the correct
spelling: my data are not found without personal guidance (telephone
number, physician, credit card, bank, insurances, etc.)