Italic small-caps?
Lucian Wischik
\textsc{Or a sentence in small-caps \textit{with some italic}}
I'm converting a text from Word into latex, so as to get better
formatting and layout. The text has a character who speaks in small-caps;
therefore, when he emphasises something, he speaks in small-cap italics.
This s-c-i works in Word, and also in HTML, but isn't working in latex.
(1) When I run the document as written above through latex (Y&Y) it uses
either italic, or small-caps, but not both. I understand this is because
Computer Modern simply doesn't have a s-c-i font.
(2) I add \usepackage{times} and run it through latex and view it in
DVIWindow. The DVI-previewer pops up an error message: "Can't find Font
tirsc (0) No Face Name." So perhaps my y&ytex installation included font
metrics for times italic roman small-caps, but didn't include the actual
font?
(3) I use dvipsone to convert the times DVI file into PS. It does this
without complaint, but now Ghostview displays each word either
in small-caps or italic but not both.
(3) I try running the document through Miktex/PDFLatex, both with and
without \usepackage{times}. In both cases, it again displays each word
either in small-caps or italic but not both.
So now I'm lost. I understand that small-caps-italic is probably an
unusual combination, and perhaps most people don't bother designing fonts
for it. Nevertheless, I must have it. Do Word and Internet Explorer
simulate the fonts, perhaps through taking a regular font and slanting it?
(Or taking an italic font and small-capsify it?) Could I use the same
technique myself?
Or are there other fonts out there which include a small-caps-italic
version that I can download? My DVI-previewer uses type1 fonts natively,
not PK. But actually, I really want the finished document to be in PDF, so
I'd want to use a scalable font in it.
Many thanks in advance for any help.
--
Lucian Wischik, Queens' College, Cambridge CB3 9ET. www.wischik.com/lu
Robin Fairbairns
>\textit{I'd like this to be \textsc{italics and smallcaps}}
>\textsc{Or a sentence in small-caps \textit{with some italic}}
>
>I'm converting a text from Word into latex, so as to get better
>formatting and layout. The text has a character who speaks in small-caps;
>therefore, when he emphasises something, he speaks in small-cap italics.
>This s-c-i works in Word, and also in HTML, but isn't working in latex.
>
>(1) When I run the document as written above through latex (Y&Y) it uses
>either italic, or small-caps, but not both. I understand this is because
>Computer Modern simply doesn't have a s-c-i font.
that's true enough, but it's not the reason the commands don't work.
the problem is in the nfss itself -- there's a hint in the modal
commands that select italic or small-caps -- they're \itshape and
\scshape -- so they're both on the same axis of the nfss's model of
the world, and you can't select them both at the same time.
this is not satisfactory. however, as you observe, the fonts to
support it aren't generally available, so the fact that nfss doesn't
isn't _that_ big a deal.
you could probably generate an italic small caps in the same virtual
font sort of way that fontinst generates small caps fonts from
ordinary times roman: i've never seen it done. but that wouldn't help
you much in your tex system of choice (y&y) -- what do y&y support say
about your _requirement_?
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge -- rf10 at cam dot ac dot uk
Thomas Lotze
>
> I understand that small-caps-italic is probably an
> unusual combination,
It's not only an unusual combination; it's
considered by many to be typographic overkill,
or a way for certain software to show off.
> Nevertheless, I must have it. Do Word and Internet Explorer
> simulate the fonts,
I can only guess, but I'd say they do, and I'd
call it rape ;o)
> perhaps through taking a regular font and slanting it?
> (Or taking an italic font and small-capsify it?)
Probably the second.
> Could I use the same technique myself?
Fontinst does allow faking a small caps font, so you
could start from an italic one and fake italic small caps.
But before you go to that sort of trouble, better invest
the effort in redesigning the use of fonts in your
document (as far as this is an option). If you want to
use LaTeX to make it look nicer, don't spoil it by such
font barbarism ;o)
Just my $0.02...
Cheers, Thomas
--
Thomas Lotze - thomas.lotze *at* gmx.net
http://www.thomas-lotze.de
http://www.thomas-lotze.de/Schiebefax :o)
Andi
faked italic small caps from Minion (in my case) using afm2tfm and vptovf tools.
The problem I have is that selecting this from LaTeX doesn't work. I don't know
which internal font name is generated for SC+IT, and where to define it. (.fd
files ?)
Please don't make this a typographic discussion. For some reason, I need
IT+SC...
Cheers,
Andi
Michel Henri
> (1) When I run the document as written above through latex (Y&Y) it uses
> either italic, or small-caps, but not both. I understand this is because
> Computer Modern simply doesn't have a s-c-i font.
The ec fonts (cm in T1 encoding) do. But...
> Or are there other fonts out there which include a small-caps-italic
> version that I can download? My DVI-previewer uses type1 fonts natively,
> not PK.
... so far, they don't exist as type1 fonts. Only PK's (maybe this
changed recently ; there was a recent post about that a few days ago).
Anyway, the combination \textit{\textsc{}} can't work, as explained
elsewhere. You have to create a special command for getting it-sc (or
redefine \textsc and/or \textit).
As to know whether this is typographically correct or not is another
question. I'm not sure that the statement "it's not done by the
software, therefore it's not good" is very relevant.
--
Michel Henri
Anthony Goreham
> Lucian Wischik schrieb:
> > I understand that small-caps-italic is probably an
> > unusual combination,
> It's not only an unusual combination; it's
> considered by many to be typographic overkill,
> or a way for certain software to show off.
Nevertheless there do exist small caps italic fonts, such as Adobe
Minion. In terms of NFSS I decided to call the resulting font shape
{si} and installed it with fontinst, plus the following defs:
\def\sidefault{si}
\def\sishape{\fontshape{\sidefault}\selectfont}
\def\textsi#1{\bgroup\sishape#1\egroup}
To make a _faked_ si font in fontinst you would make a file something
like this, and tex it in the same directory as the file ptmri8a.afm
\input fontinst.sty
\transformfont{ptmri8r}{\reencodefont{8r}{\fromafm{ptmri8a}}}
\installfonts
\installfamily{OT1}{ptm}{}
\installfont{ptmrci7t}{ptmri8r,latin}{OT1c}{OT1}{m}{si}{}
\endinstallfonts
\bye
Then you have to convert the resulting vpl file into a vf/tfm pair:
vptovf ptmrci7t.vpl ptmrci7t.vf ptmrci7t.tfm
finally move the vf/tfm to appropriate directories and rehash.
--
Anthony Goreham The Queen's College, Oxford OX1 4AW, UK
Robin Fairbairns
>I have the same problem with SmallCaps and Italics. However, I
>managed creating faked italic small caps from Minion (in my case)
>using afm2tfm and vptovf tools.
>
>The problem I have is that selecting this from LaTeX doesn't work. I
>don't know which internal font name is generated for SC+IT, and where
>to define it. (.fd files ?)
define yourself a new font shape, scit (or something) in the .vf
files, and use that. latex cannot cope with a sc-shape of an it-shape
object, so you have to invent a new shape and provide the
infrastructure for it.
or you can go the non-nfss way and define a single-size font with
\newfont
>Please don't make this a typographic discussion. For some reason, I need
>IT+SC...
's funny, isn't it, that no-one advertises a need for months, and then
suddenly two such come along on the same day. at least you're using a
system that can cope with vfs, unlike poor old lucian.
Bob Tennent
>
> I'm converting a text from Word into latex, so as to get better
> formatting and layout. The text has a character who speaks in small-caps;
> therefore, when he emphasises something, he speaks in small-cap italics.
I suggest slanted small caps or even bold small caps would be more
appropriate than italic. If you're using CM, install cmbcsc10.mf or
cmcscsl10.mf from CTAN and add to your preamble one or the other of
%% bold small caps
\DeclareFontShape{OT1}{cmr}{b}{sc}
{
<5><6><7><8><9><10><12><10.95><14.4><17.28><20.74><24.88>cmbcsc10
}{}
\DeclareFontShape{OT1}{cmr}{bx}{sc}
{
<5><6><7><8><9><10><12><10.95><14.4><17.28><20.74><24.88>cmbcsc10
}{}
%% slanted small caps
\DeclareFontFamily{OT1}{cmslsc}{\hyphenchar\font=-1}
\DeclareFontShape{OT1}{cmslsc}{m}{n}
{
<5><6><7><8><9><10><12><10.95><14.4><17.28><20.74><24.88>cmcscsl10
}{}
\DeclareTextFontCommand{\textslsc}{\fontfamily{cmslsc}\selectfont}
Then:
\textsc{\textbf{Bold Small Capitals.}}
\textslsc{Slanted Small Capitals.}
For other font families, you're on your own.
Bob T.
Anthony Goreham
> at least you're using a system that can cope with vfs, unlike poor
> old lucian.
Hang on: do you mean that y&y tex doesn't support virtual fonts?
And people pay money for it...???
Well, I suppose there's always dvicopy...
Giuseppe Bilotta
> Anyway, the combination \textit{\textsc{}} can't work, as explained
> elsewhere. You have to create a special command for getting it-sc (or
> redefine \textsc and/or \textit).
I seem to recall there's a LaTeX package that moves small caps from
one axis to the other, but I can't recall the name ...
--
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta
Axiom I of the Giuseppe Bilotta
theory of IT:
Anything is better than MS
Allin Cottrell
> I suggest slanted small caps or even bold small caps would be more
> appropriate than italic.
I'll go with the slanted. I've seen this effect in some quite nice
old books. Italic small caps, however, are the spawn of the devil.
Allin Cottrell
Peter Flynn
> \textit{I'd like this to be \textsc{italics and smallcaps}}
> \textsc{Or a sentence in small-caps \textit{with some italic}}
>
> I'm converting a text from Word into latex, so as to get better
> formatting and layout. The text has a character who speaks in
> small-caps; therefore, when he emphasises something, he speaks
> in small-cap italics.
Small caps italics are as rare as hen's teeth. Not just are there
very few typefaces which have them but most typographers wouldn't
use them anyway, except perhaps for very special effects (and this
wouldn't class as one :-).
> This s-c-i works in Word, and also in HTML
They fake it. They artificially slant the roman small caps, which
in turn are probably faked from the basic roman font (unless
you have installed a typeface which has genuine small caps [which
Adobe used to refer to as an "expert" font] and genuine italic
small caps).
I'd put the emphasised stuff in bold small caps, which are still
pretty rare, but acceptable.
Although if you are producing this for an audience accustomed to
Word output, why not just use {\small\itshape ...}. It may look
horrible but they won't know that (it's called prostituting your
art :-)
///Peter
Eddie Saudrais
Lucian Wischik a écrit :
>
> \textit{I'd like this to be \textsc{italics and smallcaps}}
> \textsc{Or a sentence in small-caps \textit{with some italic}}
As it was explained in other answers, nfss doesn't allow to select
italic and small caps shape together, but there are available on T1
encoding (EC fonts). This is a small package I wrote
(save this file under the name esscit.sty):
\NeedsTeXFormat{LaTeX2e}
\ProvidesPackage{esscit}
\RequirePackage{ifthen}
\DeclareFontShape{T1}{cmr}{m}{scsl}%
{<5><6><7><8><9><10><10.95><12><14.4><17.28><20.74><24.88>genb*ecsc}{}
\DeclareFontShape{T1}{cmr}{bx}{scsl}%
{<5><6><7><8><9><10><10.95><12><14.4><17.28><20.74><24.88>genb*ecoc}{}
\DeclareFontShape{T1}{cmr}{b}{scsl}%
{<5><6><7><8><9><10><10.95><12><14.4><17.28><20.74><24.88>genb*ecoc}{}
\DeclareTextFontCommand{\textsc}{%
\ifthenelse{\equal{\f@shape}{\sldefault}}{\fontshape{scsl}\selectfont}{%
\ifthenelse{\equal{\f@shape}{\itdefault}}{\fontshape{scsl}\selectfont}{%
\fontshape{sc}\selectfont}}}
\DeclareTextFontCommand{\textit}{%
\ifthenelse{\equal{\f@shape}{\scdefault}}{\fontshape{scsl}\selectfont}{\fontshape{it}\selectfont}}
\endinput
Try (don't forget \usepackage[T1@{fontenc}):
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[subsit]{smallcap}
\begin{document}
\textit{I'd like this to be \textsc{italics and smallcaps}}
\textsc{Or a sentence in small-caps \textit{with some italic}}
\end{document}
*********************************************
* Ma page maison : *
* http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eddie.saudrais *
*********************************************
Michel Henri
> Michel Henri wrote:
> > Anyway, the combination \textit{\textsc{}} can't work, as explained
> > elsewhere. You have to create a special command for getting it-sc (or
> > redefine \textsc and/or \textit).
>
> I seem to recall there's a LaTeX package that moves small caps from
> one axis to the other, but I can't recall the name ...
smallcap.sty ?
--
Michel Henri
Robin Fairbairns
>r...@pallas.cl.cam.ac.uk (Robin Fairbairns) wrote:
>> at least you're using a system that can cope with vfs, unlike poor
>> old lucian.
>
>Hang on: do you mean that y&y tex doesn't support virtual fonts?
>And people pay money for it...???
yes: y&y's world-view predates knuth's vf paper, and they have
alternative (well thought-through) mechanisms for dealing with the
original problem that knuth's vf botch was designed to deal with.
there are things that y&y can do that vf-enabled systems can't do; but
here we have a case where there's a botch that vf can do for you that
y&y (afaik) can't.
>Well, I suppose there's always dvicopy...
i suppose so. i don't know of anyone who uses that with y&y (most of
my experience of it is in the hands of "corporate" users -- journal
publishers, in the main -- who wouldn't move out of the envelope even
in utter extremis).
Giuseppe Bilotta
> Giuseppe Bilotta <obl...@freemail.it> wrote:
> >
> > I seem to recall there's a LaTeX package that moves small caps from
> > one axis to the other, but I can't recall the name ...
>
> smallcap.sty ?
That's it. Moves 'sc' from 'shape' to 'family'.
Dan Luecking
OK, I'll reveal my ignorance.
I have examined a few slanted faces and compared them to the
corresponding slanted faces (for example, cmti v. cmsl). While
one can see differences in the capitals between such pairs of
fonts, these differences seem to be mostly in the weight and
slant (and seem to be simply designed to try to match these
aspects of the lowercase letters). There seems little difference
in style or feel between (the capitals of) the two fonts.
I would therefore imagine an italic smallcaps and a slanted
smallcaps to be very similar to one another, so similar in fact
that one would appear to be redundant.
So what makes one the "spawn of the devil" and the other somewhat
acceptable? Are the lowercase letters in an italic smallcaps font
supposed to be disturbingly different in style from the uppercase?
If so, what makes it a smallcaps font? which I understand to mean
the lowercase are designed to appear very similar to the uppercase.
Dan Luecking
john green
I think the disagreements here are caused by a mismatch of
terminology. "Italic capitals" as found in almost every modern
font are *slanted* capitals, and not "true italic" or "swash"
capitals (which look closer to \textcal output). There is, as
far as I know, no font with true italic small caps. Slanted
small caps, as has been mentioned by others, have a long
history (see Bringhurst "The Elements of Typographic Style")
and are cut in, for example, Minion.
-j
--
J.J.Green, Dept. Applied Math. University of Sheffield, UK
http://www.arbs.demon.co.uk
William F. Adams
:Small caps italics are as rare as hen's teeth. Not just are there
:very few typefaces which have them but most typographers wouldn't
:use them anyway, except perhaps for very special effects (and this
:wouldn't class as one :-).
Cartography, showing emphasis in a text with is in SC to begin with are two
fairly prevalent reasons.
William
--
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Thierry Bouche
> Small caps italics are as rare as hen's teeth.
But, as a matter of fact, they do exist in a commercial add-on to
Times.
> They fake it. They artificially slant the roman small caps, which
> in turn are probably faked from the basic roman font
If he uses the times.sty package, his small caps are already faked
anyway. So, making faked italic small caps by slanting (rather than
reducing the italics) may be (relatively) sound in this case... Btw,
nfss doesn't know that such a beast as small-cap-italic may exist...
> (unless
> you have installed a typeface which has genuine small caps [which
> Adobe used to refer to as an "expert" font] and genuine italic
> small caps).
you mean that word is able to fetch the expert complement when it
exist? Even Xpress or Indesign don't do it!
In French, where small caps have to be used in some places (roman
numerals like centuries, or cited author names...), it seems quite
unavoidable to have them in the same variants as the lower case. It
appears that the meaning of sc is so important that, when only upshape
sc existed, this is what was used in an italic context.
--
Thierry Bouche
__
« Ils vivent pour vivre, et nous, hélas ! nous vivons pour savoir. »
Charles Baudelaire, Paris.
Javier Bezos
> very few typefaces which have them but most typographers wouldn't
> use them anyway, except perhaps for very special effects (and this
> wouldn't class as one :-).
Not so very special, I think. For example, if I want an acronym
inside an italic text, imo the right way to do that should be
\textit{A text with the acronym \textsc{nasa} in it}. The
Chicago Manual of Style says that in this case the acronym should
be typeset upppercase, but that is an inconsistency due
primarily to a limitation of old systems.
Regards
_________________________________________________________________
Javier Bezos | TeX y tipografia
jbezos arroba wanadoo punto es | http://perso.wanadoo.es/jbezos/
.................................................................
CervanTeX http://apolo.us.es/CervanTeX/CervanTeX.html
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Robin Fairbairns
>Not so very special, I think. For example, if I want an acronym
>inside an italic text, imo the right way to do that should be
>\textit{A text with the acronym \textsc{nasa} in it}.
i wouldn't do that: most sc fonts seem too small for that usage, imo.
i would use \textsmaller{NASA} (from relsize.sty) or the the slightly
modified \acro command i define in ltugboat.cls