RFD: Remove comp.sys.zenith
Jim Riley
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) to remove the following
Usenet newsgroup:
remove comp.sys.zenith
RATIONALE: remove comp.sys.zenith
This is one of a set of 31 low-traffic former INET groups proposed for
removal. Please see the article
"2nd RFD: Remove low traffic former INET groups"
posted to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups for a more general
discussion.
**********************************************************************************
RATIONALE: remove comp.sys.zenith
The newsgroup line is:
|comp.sys.zenith Heath terminals and related Zenith products.
comp.sys.zenith possibly has had 3 on-topic messages in the past 11
months. One was specific to the Z100.
**********************************************************************************
PROCEDURE:
The full (draft) group removal procedure is documented here:
http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=policies:rmgroup
Those who wish to comment on this request to remove this newsgroup
should subscribe to news.groups and participate in the relevant threads
in that newsgroup.
To this end, the followup header of this RFD has been set to
news.groups.
All discussion of active proposals should be posted to news.groups.
If desired by the readership of closely affected groups, the discussion
may be crossposted to those groups, but care must be taken to ensure
that all discussion appears in news.groups as well.
DISTRIBUTION:
news.announce.newgroups (omitted)
news.groups
comp.sys.zenith
comp.sys.zenith.z100
PROPONENT:
Jim Riley <jim...@pipeline.com>
CHANGE HISTORY:
2006-07-08 Original RFD.
--
Jim Riley
herbrj...@gmail.com
Jim Riley wrote:
> This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) to remove
> the following Usenet newsgroup: remove comp.sys.zenith
>
> This is one of a set of 31 low-traffic former INET
> groups proposed for removal. comp.sys.zenith possibly
> has had 3 on-topic messages in the past 11 months.
> One was specific to the Z100.
I OPPOSE deleting comp.sys.zenith.z100. It has some relevant traffic.
I have a number of Zenith "Z-100" systems and so I follow
comp.sys.zenith.z100. I checked comp.sys.zenith.z100 and
comp.sys.zenith as of July 18th, results are tallied below. It's fair
to say that comp.sys.zenith.z100 has several posts a year about Z-100
systems or software available, some of which generate responses.
Meanwhile comp.sys.zenith has fewer posts with fewer replies.
I recommend AGAINST deleting comp.sys.zenith.z100 because there is
incremental interest in these particular systems, even today. However,
most of that traffic could, in principle, be handled by comp.os.cpm.
That NG specializes in pre-MS-DOS systems (the Z-100 series ran CP/M)
and has discussions about many Zenith systems of the Z-100 vintage.
Persons who post in comp.sys.zenith.z100 simply find it in a newsgroup
search by name; with effort they could find similar traffic in
comp.os.cpm; and possibly other "vintage" computer NG's.
Consequently, if I have sufficient notice of deletion, I will try to
post recommendations for alternative NG's, in the hopes that an
archival search after deletion will provide a means of "routing" future
posts. I frankly don't know if dead NG's are found in searches of
"live" NG's but such a post does no harm.
Thanks for posting notice of RFD in comp.sys.zenith.z100. I was not
aware of this situation until that post.
Herb Johnson
-----------------------------
traffic for comp.sys.zenith.z100 in 2006
Jul 18 post, RFD to remove comp.sys.zenith
Feb 28-Jul 5 post for Z-120 software wanted. 8 participants, 11 msgs
Jan 17 post, H-100 code for download from a Web site. 1 msg
Jan 16 post, Z-100 software available, 2 msg (including reply)
Summary of traffic for comp.sys.zenith.z100 in 2005:
5 relevant threads of 10, one recieved 1 reply, one recieved 2 replies.
traffic for comp.sys.zenith in 2006
22 posts in 2006, 5 relevant (not spam). Of those relevant, one was
replied
to, in a generic way.
traffic for comp.sys.zenith in 2005: 9 posts, 5 relevant, no replies.
-----------------------------------
**I'LL BE UNAVAILABLE FOR JULY 2006 - email replies delayed**
Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
<a href="http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/"> web site</a>
<a href="http://retrotechnology.net/herbs_stuff/"> domain mirror</a>
my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
"Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"
Dave Sill
> I OPPOSE deleting comp.sys.zenith.z100. It has some relevant
> traffic.
Nobody has proposed removing comp.sys.zenith.z100.
-Dave
Barry Watzman
prominent in both the laptop and desktop computer markets in the period
from about 1979 to about 1990. I have multiple Zenith systems, both
desktop and laptop, and I monitor this newsgroup regularly. I do not
believe that it should be eliminated at this time.
Barry Watzman
Wat...@neo.rr.com
Barry Watzman
not to mention dozens of laptop models.
Jim Riley
>(cross posted to comp.sys.zenith, comp.sys.zenith.z100, news.groups)
>
>Jim Riley wrote:
>
>> This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) to remove
>> the following Usenet newsgroup: remove comp.sys.zenith
>>
>> This is one of a set of 31 low-traffic former INET
>> groups proposed for removal. comp.sys.zenith possibly
>> has had 3 on-topic messages in the past 11 months.
>> One was specific to the Z100.
>
>I OPPOSE deleting comp.sys.zenith.z100. It has some relevant traffic.
The removal of comp.sys.zenith.z100 is not being proposed.
The removal of comp.sys.zenith is.
During the past 11 months, it has the following articles:
"cannot record from tv"
A question about the Zenith XBV342 DVD/VCR combo. Which belongs
in a DVD or VCR or TV group rather than a computer group.
"Z-100 for sale; Z-100 software and manuals"
This belonged in comp.sys.zenith.z100 (or a marketplace group)
"chip or code for a h8-37 board"
I couldn't find whether the Heathkit 8 was ever marketed under
the Zenith name. I suspect that it is of such vintage that
more information could be found in a radio or electronics group.
--
Jim Riley
Barry Watzman
bought and owned Heath Company (Heathkit), and as far as computers are
concerned, Zenith, Heath and Heathkit are all synonomous.
herbrj...@gmail.com
> On 18 Jul 2006 08:21:53 -0700, herbrj...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>I OPPOSE deleting comp.sys.zenith.z100. It has some relevant traffic.
>
> The removal of comp.sys.zenith.z100 is not being proposed.
> The removal of comp.sys.zenith is.
Thanks for your reply.
As a mere user, I do/did not know if "dot Z100" can be retained if
comp.sys.zenith is removed. I stated my reasons for "dot Z100". An
argument could be made to preserve comp.sys.zenith over
comp.sys.zenith.z100, notwithstanding actual traffic.
> During the past 11 months, [comp.sys.zenith] has the following articles:
[snip]
> "chip or code for a h8-37 board"
>
o> I couldn't find whether the Heathkit 8 was ever marketed under
> the Zenith name. I suspect that it is of such vintage that
> more information could be found in a radio or electronics group.
> --
> Jim Riley
Of course, this is ALL ABOUT "VINTAGE". Continuing a Usenet newsgroup
for the occasional traffic to preserve a vintage product - notibly a
computer product - is a consideration.
The Heath H-8 preceeded the purchase of Heath by Zenith, but one site
said some H-8's were labled Zenith. A reasonable search of the Web by
an otherwise ignorant H-8 owner would show the relationship. Such an
owner might post for help in a ZENITH computer group, as this one did.
As for looking in "a radio or electronics group", my casual but
signifigant experience is that Heath interests in 2006 divide rather
sharply between the "computer" side and the "radio" side, with modest
interest in the "electronics" products by some of the "radio" group.
A "heath and zenith" computer newsgroup by name would be incrementally
better than just "zenith". Some newgroup searches I did for "heath"
returned a lot of "alt.music.heath"; or radio-related groups. Given
that, a computer and Zenith group is a reasonable place to post about a
Heath computer.
Herb Johnson
Jim Riley
>Jim Riley wrote:
>> On 18 Jul 2006 08:21:53 -0700, herbrj...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>I OPPOSE deleting comp.sys.zenith.z100. It has some relevant traffic.
>>
>> The removal of comp.sys.zenith.z100 is not being proposed.
>> The removal of comp.sys.zenith is.
>As a mere user, I do/did not know if "dot Z100" can be retained if
>comp.sys.zenith is removed. I stated my reasons for "dot Z100". An
>argument could be made to preserve comp.sys.zenith over
>comp.sys.zenith.z100, notwithstanding actual traffic.
There is no problem with dot-z100 existing and comp.sys.zenith not
existing. In fact, comp.sys.zenith.z100 existed prior to
comp.sys.zenith.
Ordinarily, having two groups named like that would indicate that one
was the parent group for the other (e.g. that comp.sys.zenith had
existed, and then all the Z-100 and H-100 discussion was overwhelming
the other discussion, so a child group was set out to specialize.
In this case that didn't happen, and it appears that comp.sys.zenith was
actually created for discussing Heath terminals (it was a gateway for a
mailing list called 'heath-people', where people indicates people
interested in Heath products rather people who worked for Heath in
Michigan, though they might have participated as well).
comp.sys.zenith.z100 was created directly for the Z-100 (and H-100). The
choice of name probably simply indicates that comp.sys.z100
comp.sys.zenith-z100 were not considered suitable names. The structure
permits orderly expansion to include other comp.sys.zenith.* groups. At
the time this happened (in 1987) the Z-100 and H-100 wouldn
Technically, newsgroups aren't nested. Each is simply a flat directory
of news articles. However early implementations of netnews did use
hierarchical file systems to store the articles. For example the
articles for comp.sys.zenith.z100 might be stored in a file
/comp/sys/zenith/z100/nnnn where nnnn is simply a sequential number
assigned to each article in the group. Articles are still number this
way on each newsserver. Your message is article 2931 on the server
where I am reading it.
>> During the past 11 months, [comp.sys.zenith] has the following articles:
>[snip]
>> "chip or code for a h8-37 board"
>>
>o> I couldn't find whether the Heathkit 8 was ever marketed under
>> the Zenith name. I suspect that it is of such vintage that
>> more information could be found in a radio or electronics group.
>Of course, this is ALL ABOUT "VINTAGE". Continuing a Usenet newsgroup
>for the occasional traffic to preserve a vintage product - notibly a
>computer product - is a consideration.
>
>The Heath H-8 preceeded the purchase of Heath by Zenith, but one site
>said some H-8's were labled Zenith. A reasonable search of the Web by
>an otherwise ignorant H-8 owner would show the relationship. Such an
>owner might post for help in a ZENITH computer group, as this one did.
>As for looking in "a radio or electronics group", my casual but
>signifigant experience is that Heath interests in 2006 divide rather
>sharply between the "computer" side and the "radio" side, with modest
>interest in the "electronics" products by some of the "radio" group.
>
>A "heath and zenith" computer newsgroup by name would be incrementally
>better than just "zenith". Some newgroup searches I did for "heath"
>returned a lot of "alt.music.heath"; or radio-related groups. Given
>that, a computer and Zenith group is a reasonable place to post about a
>Heath computer.
Searching on 'H8' and 'H89' in both groups found articles in both
groups, with about a 60:40 split between the two (with comp.sys.zenith
slightly more likely to be used). One article to comp.sys.zenith.z100
indicated since he couldn't find a more appropriate group, so he was
going to consider the group to be comp.sys.oldfarts.h8.
What about changing the description of comp.sys.zenith.z100 to:
|comp.sys.zenith.z100 Z-100, Heath H-100 and other Heath & Zenith computers.
The current description of the two groups are:
|comp.sys.zenith.z100 The Zenith Z-100 (Heath H-100) family of computers.
|comp.sys.zenith Heath terminals and related Zenith products.
--
Jim Riley
herbrj...@gmail.com
> >As a mere user, I do/did not know if "dot Z100" can be retained if
> >comp.sys.zenith is removed.
>
Jim Riley wrote:
> There is no problem with dot-z100 existing and comp.sys.zenith not
> existing. In fact, comp.sys.zenith.z100 existed prior to
> comp.sys.zenith.
Thanks for the reply with a history of the two groups and some
discussion of implementation issues.
> What about changing the description of comp.sys.zenith.z100 to:
>
> |comp.sys.zenith.z100 Z-100, Heath H-100 and other Heath & Zenith computers.
>
> The current description of the two groups are:
>
> |comp.sys.zenith.z100 The Zenith Z-100 (Heath H-100) family of computers.
> |comp.sys.zenith Heath terminals and related Zenith products.
> --
> Jim Riley
When I bring up the Google home page and select "groups", I get a page
that in part offers a "find a group" search. A search for "Zenith"
finds the names and descriptions listed above. A consolidated
description under "dot Z100" as you suggest would be reasonable.
Heath/Zenith created a 100-series of computers starting with the Z-110
and Z-120 (S-100 bus), Z-140 (ISA bus) and probably other ISA products
in that series. Heath produced many other computers (analog, digital,
and trainers for either) and terminals. So a slightly BETTER
description might be:
comp.sys.zenith.z100 Heath and Zenith computer products including Z-100
series
..but I'd differ to my colleague Barry Watzman for the last word on a
description.
Barry Watzman
What really would make the most sense is one single group:
Comp.sys.Heath-Zenith
Description: All Heath (Heathkit) and Zenith computers
The H-8 and H/Z-88/89/90 used [two different] proprietary busses (but
were architecturally identical, and initially non-standard but were
later adapted to be able to run conventional CP/M)
The Z-100 was S-100 bus and was pretty much architecturally standard
both as a CP/M machine and as a MS-DOS machine (but the hardware and
BIOS are not PC compatible at the lowest level and it will not boot from
a PC diskette)
All later Heath and Zenith computer products were just PC clones. Also,
nothing can be inferred from the model numbering (e.g., for example, the
130 and 140 series came after the 150 series).
Barry Watzman
Wat...@neo.rr.com
Jim Riley
>When I bring up the Google home page and select "groups", I get a page
>that in part offers a "find a group" search. A search for "Zenith"
>finds the names and descriptions listed above. A consolidated
>description under "dot Z100" as you suggest would be reasonable.
With my newsreader, I can do a simlar search, so it is a good idea to
get as many searchable words in the description.
>Heath/Zenith created a 100-series of computers starting with the Z-110
>and Z-120 (S-100 bus), Z-140 (ISA bus) and probably other ISA products
>in that series. Heath produced many other computers (analog, digital,
>and trainers for either) and terminals. So a slightly BETTER
>description might be:
>comp.sys.zenith.z100 Heath and Zenith computer products including Z-100
>series
There are a few arcane rules for the description. There is an 8-space
tab after the group name, so that comp.sys.zenith.z100 <tab> requires 24
spaces. The total description uses 80 characters, and traditionally a
period is used. This ensures that when the descriptions are displayed
on your Z-100 (assumming an 80x24 monitor), that they line up and fit on
the screen.
So perhaps something like:
|12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
|comp.sys.zenith.z100 Heath & Zenith computers, Z-100 series and others.
If you are using Google, you may have to click on Show Options and Show
Original to see this.
>..but I'd differ to my colleague Barry Watzman for the last word on a
>description.
--
Jim Riley