What is this xerox box I have?
Hugh J.E. Davies
>I have aquired a xerox computer of some sort. I have no idea what it does.
>Here is a descpiption:
[description deleted]
I'm sitting in front of one of these. Except that mine works!
It's variously called a Xerox 6085 or 1186 workstation, depending on
what microcode is loaded. If it's running Dove microcode, it's called
a 6085 and runs Xerox Viewpoint (now called GlobalView) office automation
software, and/or XDE (Xerox Development Environment). If it has LISP
microcode loaded, it's called an 1186, and runs LISP.
BTW, the mouse is optical, but uses infra-red (I think - that or UV)
diodes, so you can't see the LEDs lit up. The row of icons you get at
switchon tells the machine where to boot from - the spanners mean to boot
with diagnostics. If you press the hard disk icon (F1) and it fails to
boot, you should get a display of four small numbers (called an MPU code,
for Maintenance Panel). What are they? This should tell you why the boot
failed. If it's 7511, the file system is corrupt, and you need to run
a scavenge, which you unfortunately need to get from somewhere else, since
it isn't installed on the machine. If it hangs with an MP code of 0937,
it's trying to get the time from the Ethernet, and this will fail unless
it's plugged into an Ethernet with another machine running XNS time service.
You can't run anything vaguely industry standard on this machine - you'll
need to approach Xerox for Viewpoint (they probably won't sell you XDE), or
Envos in California for LISP. Both will probably cost you serious money. I
doubt if there are enough of them in the world for there to be a serious
hobbyist community to approach for software. Since you're an academic site,
there *may* be a possibility of getting it looked at for free, but don't
hold your breath, especially since Xerox have stopped making 6085s, and now
run this stuff on Suns, instead.
6085s (depending on configuration) sell for between US$500 and US$1000, in
the States. I've never seen one for sale here, and I've no idea about Australia!
>
>Any ideas? Particularly, does any body have any technical specs on the monitor,
>or where I can get them? Or can tell me how to get into a setup mode, or has
>a floppy for it or something?
>
>Thanks in advance,
> David Monro
>
---
Regards,
Hugh.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't speak for Xerox. | "It's no use being clever - we are all
Rank Xerox Centre, UK. | clever here; just try to be kind - a
Huge...@rx.xerox.com | little kind." (F.J. Foakes Jackson)
Linda Distributed Language
Here is a descpiption:
25 wide. Contains 3 cards with lots of circuitry, a 330W switchmode
power supply and an st251 40Mb mfm type hard drive. On th hard drive
module there is a sticker saying Viewpoint Version 1.1.2 which is
crossed out and has had 2.0 written in by hand. Of the boards, the
one on the left is labeled C1 and has a connector labelled Display.
The next slot is empty. Card 3 is labelled C3 and has one connector
labelled Bus Extender. The next is labelled C4 and has from the top
down ports labelled Enet, Floppy, Keyb'd, Comm DTE and Printer DCE.
All connectors are various size D connectors.
Floppy - seems to be a standard looking 5.25" floppy in a case with the
same footprint as the top of the cpu case. Funny that :-)
Monitor - large black and white monitor. Has keyboard socket on right hand
side, and three cables going to the cpu (power, display and keyb'd)
Keyboard - Plugs into monitor, has socket for something on the back. I
found a mouse that plugs into it, but it is an optical mouse and
does not light up. However, it plugs into the keyboard in a way that
looks just right (strange flat connector).
When I turn it on, it gives me a chekerboard pattern background with a bunch
of 10 icons in two groups of four and one of two across the bottom,
laid out like the function keys. Pressing the appropriate key
causes the icon to be selected.
The first three have a picture of a monitor, a floppy disk and what
looks to me like somthing that is meant to be a network. The fourth
is blank. The second group is the same as he first but there are
spanners next to the monitor, floppy and network symbols. The
last two are blank.
Pressing the monitor icon key causes the harddrive to do things, and the
floppy light goes on briefly, then it hangs. Pressing the floppy
icon causes it to access the floppy and then hang. Pressing the
network icon causes a hang.
Pressing the monitor with spannr icon causes some harddrive activity and
then it apears to begin some sort of self test, with things flashing
up on the screen (test patterns I guess). When finished, it goes
back to the original state. pressing the floppy with spanner key
accesses the floppy and hangs. All other icons cause it to hang.
Tom Shou
in XSoft (the division which made them) to help you? When you press
the monitor icon and it hangs, are there little numbers on the screen
where the cursor is? A number may indicate a failure. The second set
of buttons are diagnostic type stuff I think.
--
===========================================================================
Tom Shou Silicon Graphics
sh...@asd.sgi.com 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd.
415-390-5362 MS 8U-815
415-962-0494 (fax) Mountain View, CA 94043
===========================================================================
John Borger
Congratulations!
You are the *fortunate* owner of a Xerox model 6085 desktop publishing system.
It was at one time connected to a file server so that's the reason it probably hangs. Pressing the <F1> key starts the normal boot process. <F2> boots from floppy and <F3> boots from the net (for diagnostics and loading/reloading software). The other three are diagnostics. If you press the far right one (I think <F7>) twice rapidly, it will do an extended boot diagnostics.
Unless you have a Maint contract for the software loaded on it, Xerox views it aact of piracy if you operate the system (strap on your wooden leg folks).
If you are *REALLY* interested, I have about a dozen of those machines with a file server and print server I would be willing to let you have real cheap.
Software maint. is $400 (US). and entitles you to upgrades and software support. Veiwpoint 2.0 is the latest version of software capable of running on that machine.
I guess the story is that this was the predesessor to the MAC. THe guy who designed the interface later on went to design the MAC. Fact or fiction, I don't know...but it does operate much like a MAC (No flames please).
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AGod I hate VI... sorry about the blanks...
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I'd be happy to exchange e-mail with you about this new found treasure. Maybe I could help you out a little more if you are *REALLY* interested in getting it runninng.
--
John Borger
jebo...@mke.ab.com
The opinions expressed are, naturally, my own.
Michel_Den...@xerox.com
Well, except that there was a microcode that let you run both Lisp and VP on
the same machine. I think the distinction is more in how it was sold - either
as a "Xerox 6085 Professional Computer System", or a "Xerox 1186 Artificial
Intelligence Workstation".
"6085s (depending on configuration) sell for between US$500 and
US$1000, in the States"
I think that's a bit optimistic nowadays. (Well, a lot optimistic). I heard
of one going for $20 recently. I might take one that worked for free, but
maybe not. Since all the software that ran on the 6085/1186 (Lisp and VP) can
now run on PC's, there's not much point anymore. The 6085 does look a lot like
Xerox Tower in Rochester though. I don't know if that increases (or decreases)
its value.
- Michel
Chris Kern
Michel_Den...@xerox.com writes:
> . . . Since all the software that ran on the 6085/1186 (Lisp and VP) can
>now run on PC's, there's not much point anymore.
You can run ViewPoint/GlobalView on a PC that is equipped with an add-on
Mesa coprocessor, but it's a rather cumbersome arrangement that in effect
squeezes two different computers into the same box. There is no native
port of GlobalView for Intel processors yet, although there is an
implementation for SPARC workstations running SunOS 4.1.X.
The 6085 is a bit of an antique, to be sure, but like the Star before it,
it was a very shrewdly designed system. Remarkable performance for a
machine of rather modest raw computing power, probably because the
hardware so perfectly supported what the software needed to do. And good
"human factors" engineering: I still prefer the kinesthetics of the 6085
mouse to those of any RISC workstation I have used, and the office
automation keyboard for the 6085 was second only to that of the Star
in its simplicity. We still have 1100 6085-2 units here. It's
interesting how little thought their users are required to give to
their operation compared to the users of "high performance" PeeCees.
The GlobalView port for UNIX/X is nice. It's still the best general-
purpose office automation environment I know, and XSoft has tried to
preserve the pellucid design of the user interface that characterized
its predecessors. But on general-purpose hardware that was intended
to offer the maximum number of features rather than on a special-
purpose box that eliminated all but the ones that were essential for
the application, it can't ever be quite the same.
--
Chris Kern c...@voa.gov ...uunet!voa3!ck +1 202-619-2020
Hugh J.E. Davies
> "If it has LISP microcode loaded, it's called an 1186, and runs LISP"
>
>Well, except that there was a microcode that let you run both Lisp and VP on
>the same machine. I think the distinction is more in how it was sold - either
>as a "Xerox 6085 Professional Computer System", or a "Xerox 1186 Artificial
>Intelligence Workstation".
True. I used to have said microcode in the days when I was Lisp support in
this building. I believe this is only true for Koto - I certainly never got
Medley LISP and Viewpoint to run under the same microcode.
>
> "6085s (depending on configuration) sell for between US$500 and
>US$1000, in the States"
>
>I think that's a bit optimistic nowadays. (Well, a lot optimistic). I heard
>of one going for $20 recently. I might take one that worked for free, but
>maybe not. Since all the software that ran on the 6085/1186 (Lisp and VP) can
>now run on PC's, there's not much point anymore. The 6085 does look a lot like
>Xerox Tower in Rochester though. I don't know if that increases (or decreases)
>its value.
>
> - Michel
>
>denber....@xerox.com
I wouldn't mind a $20 6085 ....
Andrew_M._Dani...@xerox.com
> this building. I believe this is only true for Koto - I certainly never got
> Medley LISP and Viewpoint to run under the same microcode.
It isn't really the same microcode: what enables this is the boot code that can
determine dynamically which emulator to load. It works fine for Medley -- I use
it every day. You have to make sure that your VP installation doesn't smash the
special initial microcode and that the boot pointers are all set correctly,
though.
> I wouldn't mind a $20 6085 ....
Neither would the several hundred people still using them here :-)
-- Andy. --
Kent Williams
Viewpoint 2.0 is not the latest software available for your machine, their is a 3.2 version of Viewpoint, now called GlobalView 3.2. It is leaps and bounds ahead of 2.0 and it's also faster than 2.0. If you want to use it. Check the memory (boards labeled MEB). Expanding one to capacity (3.7MB), costs about $70 (US) at your local electronics store and is HIGHLY recommended.
By the way, as far as the Mac stuff goes, Jobs was given a look at the Star (what became gloablview) environment and Apple stole the look and feel of Globalview. Scully mentions this in one of his books, it's no secret and it's the main reason that Apple hasn't successfully sued anyone for making products that have an interface similar to the Mac's.
Also, also, if you like the software, but don't want the hardware, it's available for PC's now and for Sun's.
Have a happy day,
Kent
Dave Curbow
jebo...@mke.ab.com writes:
>designed the interface later on went to design the MAC. Fact or
fiction, I
>don't know...but it does operate much like a MAC (No flames please).
To say that the one person that designed Star went to Apple is incorrect.
There were many people working on Star. Initially there were 6 people who
wrote the Star fun spec. A few hundred engineers then implimented it. I
was one of the engineers working on Viewpoint (the redesigned Star). Many
of those people now work here at Apple.
The Lisa was designed by people that SAW the STAR (or perhaps it was the
ALTO, I've forgotten now). For the complete history of Star, see the very
complete article by Jeff Johnson, et al, in Computer magazine about 3
years ago - title "Star, a Retrospective". The history of the Macintosh
has also been written up, but I cannot think of one off the top of my
head.
Macintosh was based on Lisa, and perhaps the designers saw Star (I don't
know that bit of history). It's true that the Macintosh and Star have
things in common, but there's also a lot that's different. In fact, if
you look at all the GUIs it is amazing how alike they are. Although, to
my eye, the GUIs are more like Macintosh than Star. There's a great video
tape from CHI '89 that shows 17 or so GUIs in a survey format. It's
SIGGraph Volume 51 or 52.
Enjoy...
By the way, the 6085 is probably either hung waiting for a time server to
respond (cursor = 0937), which is unlikely. Or, it needs to be scavenged
(cursor =7501), but you need the floppies for this. If you have them,
load the one labeled "Installer", restart the system, hold down the 2nd
function key (matches the picture with the floppy) and hope it boots. If
it does, it will ask you for a second floppy and then put up a menu.
There's a choice for "Install File Check" - pick that and hope everything
goes well.
Dave Curbow
Human Interface Designer
Apple Computer, Inc.
Michel_Den...@xerox.com
the ALTO, I've forgotten now)."
"At times, Xerox was bizarrely generous with its computer inventions. For
example, in late 1979 one of the company's investment arms contacted Steven
Jobs of Apple Corporation about a possible deal. Jobs, who for years had heard
about the fabled accomplishments of Xerox PARC, asked for and received a tour
of the research center. According to Larry Tesler, who conducted a
demonstration of the Alto for Jobs, the young entrepreneur immediately grasped
what had eluded Xerox executives for more than half a decade...
"Ensuing discussions between Xerox and Apple fizzled. But within months of
Job's [sic] visit, Tesler left Xerox for Apple, and Jobs ordered an Apple team
to design the "Lisa", a computer introduced in 1983. The Lisa replicated many
features invented at Xerox, and because of Apple's strong presence in the
personal computing market, the Lisa seemed to steal a march on Xerox's Star."
- "Fumbling the Future: How Xerox Invented, Then Ignored, the FIrst
Personal Computer", Douglas K. Smith, Robert C. Alexander
- Michel
alan.pearson
pretty cheap here (UK) too...? Anyone out there know where I could get hold
of one? I use a Sparc IPC now, which is rubbish compared to the 6085 I had
at RX :-)
Happy days, sigh...
Alan Pearson,
AT&T NS-UK, Malmesbury, Wilts, UK.
RP Sobek
--Ralph